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I'm mulling over something I just posted in the Spring 2015 thread:Silver2195 posted:I always assumed Extra had very little writing from Nasu himself, in part because the writing style is so different, in part because it's pretty bad in a different way from Nasu's usual forms of badness. I think part of the reason the writing style may have seemed so different (aside from the different translators) was the difference in genres. Nasu's distinctive style of fight scene narration, for example, has no place when the fights are part of the gameplay. Writing to fill Vita textboxes may have restrained Nasu's tendency towards infodumping. And so forth. I still feel that the characterization in Extra is really off for some reason, but I suppose that's a different issue.
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Feb 15, 2015 10:23
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I believe Nasu has stated that the KnK timeline has no vampires for some reason. My pet theory is that this is a result of Vlad winning the Third Grail War in that timeline.
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Feb 20, 2015 03:26
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All right, time for another long mythology post. Sorry it’s been so long since my last one. This time, I’ll be discussing the Fourth War Servants. Most of the post will be about Gilgamesh, partly because his legend is used in some interesting/weird ways and partly because several Noble Phantasms in his Gate of Babylon have interesting stories in their own right. Previous posts: • Fifth War Servants, part 1 (updated/expanded version): http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3671286&pagenumber=11&perpage=40#post436718370 • Fifth War Servants, part 2 (including Bazett and Avenger): http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3671286&pagenumber=16&perpage=40#post437401489 Arturia Pendragon (Saber): • See Arturia Pedragon (Saber) in the first Fifth War post. Diarmiud Ua Duibhne (Lancer): • Diarmuid’s love spot was actually on his forehead, at least according to Lady Gregory. • Diarmuid had four weapons: the spear Gae Dearg and the sword Moralltach, which he used for life-and-death battles, and the spear Gae Buidhe and the sword Beagalltach, for less serious situations: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/f15.html (also my source for the next few points) • In at least this version of the legend, both spears inflicted unhealable wounds. However, a confusingly worded passage suggests that Gae Dearg may also have some sort of ability to nullify protective magic. • Fate/Zero Material suggests that Kayneth intended to summon Diarmuid as a Saber with Moralltach and Beagalltach, although it doesn’t say what these swords do in the Nasuverse. In the legend, Moralltach “left no stroke nor blow unfinished at the first trial,” whatever that means (it could cut smoothly through any material?). Gilgamesh (Archer): • The title “King of Heroes” must have been invented by Urobuchi; I can find no sources for it predating Fate/Zero. • Gilgamesh’s characterization is often cited, in my view unfairly, as a “mistake” showing Nasu’s ignorance of the original story. The mythical Gilgamesh was originally a tyrant who, among other things, practiced jus primis noctis, but became a better ruler after meeting Enkidu. • So why does Gil seem to have regressed back to his bad old self? An interview concerning Fate/Extra CCC states that Gilgamesh’s villainousness in Zero and Stay Night was due in part to disliking the era he was summoned in, and his less evil personality in CCC is closer to how he was when he was alive. This was hinted at in Unlimited Blade Works when Gil commented that the modern world had too many people whose lives were meaningless, unlike in his own time, when everyone possessed inherent importance. • On the other hand, Nasu left out an important fact about Gilgamesh from the epic: He was 11 cubits tall – 5 meters, or 16 and a half feet! • The assertion that Gil has never been a swordsman is a change from the Epic, in which he wields a sword on several occasions. • In the Epic, Gilgamesh defeats Enkidu in a wrestling match, while CCC has Gilgamesh shoot weapons from Gate of Babylon and Enkidu turn his own body into weapons. While Gilgamesh has a bow in the Epic, his ability to shoot weapons from a pocket dimension is Nasu’s invention. • Gate of Babylon is oddly named, since Gilgamesh was king of Uruk, not Babylon. Then again, when you can access your treasury from anywhere, its location doesn’t matter much. • The idea that Gilgamesh obtained all the world’s treasures isn’t actually found in the epic, although it fits the hyperbolic terms in which he is described in the Prologue. • Ea is based on the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish. “Ea” is another name for Enki, one of the three main Mesopotamian gods; he appears in the Enuma Elish but plays a secondary role to his son Marduk. Marduk slew Tiamat, the embodiment of chaos, and formed the world from her corpse; this seems to be the inspiration for Ea the sword’s power to return the world to primordial chaos. Incidentally, it was Enki who ordered a human to build an ark to preserve life on Earth in the Babylonian version of the Flood myth. Gilgamesh would later meet this Bablylonian equivalent of Noah, Utanapishtim, who had been granted immortality by the gods. • Some of the part of the Epic describing the battle against the Bull of Heaven has been lost, but it seems that Gilgamesh and Enkidu bound it in some way; this is the basis of the Noble Phantasm Enkidu. • Sha Nagba Imuru, a Noble Phantasm of the child Gil that appears only in the Hollow Ataraxia card game, is named after the first few words of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It means “He Who Saw the Deep” or “He Who Saw Everything.” Fittingly, this Noble Phantasm allows Gil to look at his opponents’ hands. • The term Harpe actually refers to a type of sword or sickle (or a combination of the two) from Greek mythology, rather than a single weapon; although Perseus used one to slay Medusa, Cronus also used a Harpe when he castrated Uranus. See also Medusa (Rider) in the first Fifth War post. • A vimana is a type of flying chariot, or even flying building, from Hindu texts. The high-tech appearance of Gil’s vimana draws on the modern association of such mythical objects with UFOs. • See also Enkidu, who will be covered when I get around to Strange Fake. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Mar 11, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 15:51
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Kellanved posted:So I watched this on your recommendation and it's actually pretty drat good. The UBW VN was played years and years ago so I don't re ember all of the details but the adaptation was strangely fresh for me. Shirou acts a bit more real, I enjoy Tohsaka's character and Caster == best Servant amirite? On th eCaster front,, you say that hollow ataraxia is focused on her? I've always thought that she was one of the more relateable Servats, at least in motivation. But overaLL drat, what was their budget for that anime, so purty. She's still a secondary character in Hollow Ataraxia, but she gets some character focus that would have been out of place in F/SN, as do Lancer and Rider.
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Mar 15, 2015 20:07
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Raenir Salazar posted:At the end of Fate where Saber gives up on the grail, does she not become a Heroic Spirit? Isn't it still automatic she goes to the Throne of Heroes since she's a legendary figure? I think this is less true than common sense might suggest. CCC makes it clear that Gate of Babylon was how Gilgamesh fought in life, for example. Some Servants do have powers they explicitly didn't have in life, like the Hanging Gardens for Semiramis, and others have powers they couldn't have had in life, like Medusa riding something born when she died. In general I think added powers like that are linked either to classes or to skills like Innocent Monster; you don't just get new powers as a Servant by default.
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Mar 21, 2015 03:00
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Pureauthor posted:In Apocrypha Lancer of Black, who is Vlad Tepes, has a Noble Phantasm that turns him into the vampire modelled after his legend. It's explicitly something he couldn't do in life and he also hates it and refuses to use it unless compelled to via Command Seal. Right, and he gets that from Innocent Monster.
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Mar 21, 2015 03:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand more Comedic works kinda hint that Gilgamesh would be just happy with the modern world in different circumstances (That's what I like to think anyways Gil likes the future world of the Extra setting. He hates the particular world of the present day, rather than hating "progress" per se or anything like that.
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Mar 26, 2015 15:45
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Endorph posted:On the other hand it does make the fact that Sakura forgives him at the end of UBW really hosed up. Definitely hosed up, but not out of character.
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Apr 13, 2015 02:20
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LORD OF BUTT posted:My beef is just with replacing it in the first place. Just cut to black before clothes come off like the all-ages patch for Tsukihime does, way the gently caress less clunky than mana dragons and worm vampires and whatever the hell. It's not like people are going to have a heart attack at the suggestion that two characters boned at one point. I tend to agree. Hopefully that's what they'll do in the Tsukihime remake. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 20:37
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One thing I haven't seen anyone mention about the most recent episode: The scene with Angra Mainyu taking the form of Irisviel strikes me as an attempt to reconcile the line in the VN about Kiritsugu leaving his daughter and wife behind in the castle with Zero. It also helps explain why Ilya is so angry at Kiritsugu, instead of blaming Acht for everything.
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Apr 20, 2015 05:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:That is indeed funny, but I'm so confused at the rather inconsistent art quality. Ilya and Goku are drawn okay, the rest are weird. Tracing? He wouldn't get along with Shiki because Shiki is an rear end in a top hat. I imagine Shirou would stand aside and let someone die if it was a situation where he was willing to kill them (like with Kirei in Fate), but only then. He even tried to stop Kuzuki from getting himself killed by Archer. Edit: He did stand by and let Rin kill Sakura in Mind of Steel, of course. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 00:48
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Bakanogami posted:I can't remember where I read it, but I remember hearing somewhere that in between Zero and Stay Night, Kotomine embezzled most of the Tohsaka inheritance (since he was guardian of Rin at the time), resulting in Rin's being even more exceptionally sensitive to the financial side of her magic. While that probably made it worse, Hollow Ataraxia reveals that she was obsessed with money from childhood.
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Apr 22, 2015 03:41
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Stall_19 posted:We have like 7 or 8 episodes left? I feel like they need at least two anime original episodes to fill out the season. I basically agree, but a full episode of Archer's backstory would make sense.
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May 3, 2015 18:58
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Compendium posted:From what I read on Strange Fake, Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and maybe Assassin are the most interesting Servants. The rest, the ball kind of drops on because out of all the mythical figures and heroes the guy could have made up, they're all mostly vague and not notable to me which is disappointing. I think they're all deliberately open-ended in terms of powers. Gilgamesh has every Noble Phantasm from Earth that's a physical object (even though he can't fully use most of them), Unspoken Hassan has every version of Zabaniya, Enkidu can turn his body into a wide variety of objects that can match Gil's Noble Phantasms, the Player can temporarily summon any Servant, Jack can turn into anyone or anything ever suspected of being Jack the Ripper, Dumas can make copies of most Noble Phantasm that are physical objects (given sufficient time), and I have no idea what Pale Rider does. In terms of identities, I agree that Dumas was a somewhat disappointing choice (I don't really like people who never used magecraft when they were alive as Casters), and Pale Rider doesn't really make sense as a Heroic Spirit. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 06:06 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 06:02
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Sergeant_Crunch posted:Wasn't there a servant in one of the spinoffs that was insane in his life in a way that made him come off as sane and lucid when summoned as berserker? That was Strange Fake!Jack, actually. It doesn't really make sense, since Jack had to have been lucid enough to remain undetected.
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May 4, 2015 06:09
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AfroSquirrel posted:it does because obv the original timeline where Shirou became Archer he was forever alone I thought there was a line about Archer having a lover somewhere. Many people seem to assume it was Ilya (ick!), but my pet theory is that Archer hooked up with Ciel, since she's the one who gave him his shroud.
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May 8, 2015 02:23
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Silver2195 posted:Exactly. I'll discuss this in more detail in Type-Moon General. Continuing a discussion from the UBW anime thread about non-Western heroes: EMIYA is Japanese. Sasaki Kojiro is Japanese. (Apocrypha spoilers) Shirou Amakusa is Japanese, and was summoned in the Third War, before Darnic modified the Grail. The Grail doesn't seem to have much of a problem summoning Japanese Heroic Spirits. On the the other hand, there aren't any Chinese or Indian Servants in Fuyuki Grail Wars that we know about, although the Moon Cell Grail War has a bunch, and Apocrypha has one. There still don't seem to be any Servants from sub-Saharan Africa or the Americas, though.
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May 11, 2015 02:31
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Angry Grimace posted:All I'm saying is that some lube, condoms and cigarettes for afterwards would have resulted in 30 less paragraphs of Nasu making mollusk comparisons. Incidentally, I've often thought that Shiki having unprotected sex with Akiha was a bad decision even for him. If they had a kid it would be at risk of having the Tohno and Nanaya versions of Inversion Impulse at the same time. That would be pretty horrible. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 23:54 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 23:47
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Added spoiler tags.  Seriously though, I didn't think it was significantly creepier than the discussion people were already having.
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May 13, 2015 23:54
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Shiki Ryougi's Servant killing abilities aren't really in question, since she killed 99 of them in Extra.
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May 17, 2015 03:35
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There's Shiki Ryougi, SHIKI Ryougi, Void Shiki, Shiki Tohno (born Shiki Nanaya), SHIKI Tohno, Fake Shiki (the throwaway villain from Plus-Disk), Shiki Nanaya (as an alternate personality of Shiki Tohno), Shiki Nanaya (the dream one in Kagetsu Tohya), and Shiki Nanaya (the one created by TATARI in Melty Blood). That's 9 Shikis, although Fake Shiki was only pretending to be a Shiki.
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May 17, 2015 03:49
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Rodyle posted:Fox sighted, release the hounds
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May 17, 2015 04:17
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Schubalts posted:What? Is part of their reasoning seriously, "she didn't react the way I wanted her to"? I think she feels it was out of character for Rin not to be more defiant there. I get the impression that it's because Rin doesn't even respect/fear Shinji enough to defy him properly; contrast with the way she lets her sharp tongue loose when Kirei shows up.
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May 18, 2015 03:10
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Clarste posted:Wait, I'm confused, is the problem with ANN the reviewers, or the forums? Because the ANN forums hate the reviewers too. The forums are the really bad ones. The reviewers are a bit of a mixed bag, but I think they're OK on the whole. The only really bad reviewer is Theron.
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May 18, 2015 04:04
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Redmark posted:Nasu writes good endings (by VN standards at least), and to me that's all I can really hope for. I think Tsukihime's epilogue is still my favorite thing out of all he's done. The Good Endings in Tsukihime are actually pretty bad. Nasu does write bittersweet and tragic endings very well, though.
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May 18, 2015 04:43
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Twiddy posted:You don't have to get 20 hours into a visual novel to realize that sometimes (in fact, in many fantastic works) the protagonist isn't a literal mouth piece of the author and that simply assuming that is literally novice level critical thought and literary analysis. Bear in mind that there's a lot of fiction where the main character is an authorial mouthpiece. Basically, there needs to be a certain minimum level of audience trust in the author, and when it isn't forthcoming, it's often the fault, not so much of the author or the audience, but of other authors. Also, I think a lot of people calling F/SN sexist are complaining about things other than Shirou's characterization (and Nasu himself seems to agree with some of their points).
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May 23, 2015 21:12
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Mederlock posted:This loving thread. What is it with Weabs and their waifu nonsense? Like, even when doing it ironically, it's still posting about waifu's. Yeah, it's kind of weird that a type of posting that would get you mocked on Beast's Lair (let alone Zorak-era ADTRW) is so accepted here now. At least use the fig leaf of saying "favorite female character" instead.
Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:44 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 02:39
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Twiddy posted:Yeah that's the much more standard method of approaching this particular brand of heroism, like in the first Spiderman live-action movie where Green Goblin goes, "Now, choose!" The thing I kind of like about the UBW approach is that Archer is saying, "I'm literally from the future, there IS no third option. You can't find it, it's not there. Do you still want to keep trying this?" Despite not liking that movie as a whole, I actually liked that scene, because Peter really did make a choice. He focused on saving the bus full of kids first, even if he did manage to save Mary Jane afterward. Moreover, it seemed very clear to me that Peter's choice was the only moral one under the circumstances. Of course, this isn't actually the same dilemma Shirou faces in Heaven's Feel (and arguably the specific HF dilemma is a very contrived one, but perhaps more interesting for that reason). Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 06:00 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 05:57
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Continued from the anime thread:Surprisingly Dope posted:What's up with people in this thread hating Kiritsugu? He was much better then Shirou. His methods absolutely did work. The only reason he failed was because the true nature of the grail was hidden from him. He was badads, effective, and a much more compelling protagonist. Kiritsugu could probably have done better if he'd been nicer to Saber, if nothing else. With Avalon and Command Spells, she could have taken out Kirei and Gil, and they wouldn't have wiped out most of humanity in so many of the Bad Ends. By his own utilitarian metrics, his methods are a failure. Edit: One question that isn't really discussed in Zero: If Kiritsugu wished for world peace on an uncorrupted Grail, what would happen, and would it actually be a good thing? After all, wars and other forms of violence aren't like natural disasters; they exist as the result of human choices. It seems like the conflict in Apocrypha is going to revolve around an issue like that. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 03:10 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 03:00
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It's been a while (3 months), but I feel like posting about the mythological bases of the Servants again. Fifth War Servants, part 1: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3671286&userid=185993#post436718370 Fifth War Servants, part 2 (plus Avenger and Bazett): http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3671286&userid=185993#post437401489 Fourth War Servants, part 1: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3671286&userid=185993&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post442550886 Iskander/Alexander the Great (Rider):
Bluebeard/Gilles de Rais (Caster):
“Hundred-Faced” Hassan-i-Sabbah (Assassin):
Lancelot (Berseker):
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Jun 14, 2015 03:12
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Ytlaya posted:I just finished playing Fate/Extra with Archer as my servant. I actually enjoyed it quite a bit, even though I wasn't a huge fan of the rock/paper/scissors combat system (I ended up just looking up enemy patterns and working out a logic puzzle every time for which attacks had the highest chance of succeeding/not hurting me). I think the whole pattern of learning about your opponent's servant before fighting them was pretty cool and interesting. Shinji being an 8 year old super-hacker and a huge dick (but not outright evil/rapey) was pretty funny. Also, the end boss guy was hilarious in how much talking he does. I think it took me about 15 minutes just to read through everything he had to say. I guess he was just lonely and felt the need to talk a whole bunch before attempting to kill you. There's a translation here (with Gil as the Servant), although it stops right before the end: https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/entry-index/
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Jun 15, 2015 18:50
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Nate RFB posted:I believe Bazett is the only known instance of a "modern" NP user. There's also Gray, who has Arturia's spear for some reason.
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Jun 21, 2015 04:38
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Speaking of Reality Marbles, I've been wondering: Is "Grand Reality Marble" an actual term for the area where Gaia's physics apply, or is it just fanon?
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Jul 12, 2015 01:52
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Twiddy posted:I'm gonna guess where they're coming from. Unlimited Blade Works creates objects from nothing, so it could be said that he uses the first Magic "denial of nothingness." The problem with equating that to Shirou knowing True Magic is that you could then say that Fake Assassin knows the Second Magic because he can use Tsubame Gaeshi, which makes equally as little sense. I thought Kojiro did use the Second Magic, though... Does Shirou actually make projections out of nothing? The ability being called Gradation Air implies they're made of air. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jul 20, 2015 |
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Jul 20, 2015 21:58
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RatHat posted:So how was Rin planning to summon any servant, let alone a Saber, with no catalyst? Also how do catalysts for purely mythological heroes even work? If you summon with no catalyst at all, you get the Servant with the personality most similar to your own. Even if you do use one, you get the most personality-appropriate of all possible Servants associated with the catalyst.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:07
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AlternateNu posted:I mean, yes. People always say this is a good scene, and it does look cool, but it doesn't really make sense. Excalibur Image can only be created within Moon Cell, and shouldn't be able to overwhelm the real deal like that in any case.
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Jul 27, 2015 14:37
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Shadow225 posted:I didn't see it in the Op nor on this page so I'll ask. What is the difference between the animes Fate/Stay night and unlimited blade works? Are they different stories, or is blade works a remaster? Based on different routes of the VN, but the original Fate/Stay Night anime is bad.
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Aug 12, 2015 13:35
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Baal posted:He honestly stays kinda samey most of the game. This is the opposite of the truth; Shiki's characterization is wildly inconsistent. In the final route he suddenly becomes Shirou.
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Sep 8, 2015 22:13
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Raenir Salazar posted:So when do we figure out that Shirou/Archer can reinforce Kanshou and Bakuya? It seems like whenever we see them animated their size varies and in the DEEN Fate anime and a couple of other places we see them gain feathers and stuff but throughout all three routes of FSN I've never seen this once. Where it from? Kanshou and Bakuya: Overedge comes from the Archer vs. Berserker fight in the DEEN anime. It was made canon in one of the databooks.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:07
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taser rates posted:In other non FGO news, I've been slowly reading through Mahoyo, and goddamn, the entirety of chapter 5. In Japanese, in some other language, or did an English translation come out when I wasn't looking?
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Sep 24, 2015 04:54
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