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Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Stevefin posted:

...she indeed already had an artifact from the snake skin
This always made me wonder if it was possible to have two of the same servants in a war.

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Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Blhue posted:

Unless there's some arbitrary restriction on that in some piece of media I haven't read, it should be, technically. iirc, servants are effectively copied from the hall of heroes (or whatever it was called) when summoned, rather than actually resurrected. It'd be kind of funny to see a war made up entirely of Fate Lancers, as he's got the qualifications to be any class but assassin.

Yeah them being copies was what got me thinking about it. I suppose special cases like Arturia can be discounted. Although clones of the same servant in one war is not nearly as interesting a hypothetical as Kiritsugu somehow being unable to summon Saber and instead summoning Archer.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Raenir Salazar posted:

My head canon is that Saber is just reincarnated throughout the ages and that's why we have so many.

But she didn't die in the majority of the routes.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



point of return posted:

Are there any major myths other than King Arthur that end with the character going into eternal sleep in a mysterious place?

Almost certainly. The one that comes to mind at the moment is Constantine the XI who in the myth was rescued by an angel or turned to stone and will return to reclaim Constantinople for Christendom. As an aside Constantine the XI was a total badass and would be a loving rad servant.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



cheetah7071 posted:

Extra had better gameplay than Extella by a huge margin imo. Strip off the Fate branding and Extra is a 6/10 game and Extella is more like 4/10.

I think your putting extra too high. I like it but the base game play is so incredibly dull.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



cheetah7071 posted:

I liked the resource management game that MP is when you pick Caster, because it asks how sure you are about your odds and how much you're willing to spend to make your odds 100%. Saber route is dull though yeah. Dunno about Archer.

Yeah I used Nero, and the gameplay is the most mindless thing in the world until you get to bosses where you just spam skills and np's

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Conspiratiorist posted:

Watched Heaven's Feel. Expected it to be good, found it to be amazing. Beautiful of course, and very well paced. Utterly blindsided by the cuteness of younger Sakura, whose appearance gives a hell of a lot more context to why Shirou is troubled seeing her as anything but a little sister.

Heavens feel and very well paced are not things I would ever have expected to exist in the same sentence. How intriguing.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



On the bright side a ton of the staff would probably get scooped by other studios real quick. They've proven they do great work.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Shirou is also okay with sacrificing a town for his waifu in heavens feel.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



It looks like a romhack of Fate/Extra got released that cleans up some translation issues, and subtitles the in battle dialogue.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Plot swords really

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Stairmaster posted:

Can't believe nasu chose not to explain what is literally magic
Why would you explain something as self evident as Magic?

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



I don't know why it would be unclear, Number one rule with Nasu just roll with it.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Sindai posted:


It was great except for that though. Was Zouken's origin story in the VN? I don't remember that at all either.

I remember you get a paragraph about the madlad when he gets chumped

Marluxia posted:

Nah, I'm pretty sure the grail initially is just a massive chunk of magic, not good or evil. But the Einzberns massively hosed up during the third war and summoned Avenger for two reasons: he's actually a complete poo poo servant who went down really quickly, and him returning to the grail corrupted the magic inside because hey he literally turned into the concept of all evil when he became a servant. Whoops.

This is explained in Fate Hollow Ataraxia. As for Illya being able to use it without Angra Mainyu interfering, yeah that's not really clear. But nothing about the fundamental nature of the grail would prevent her using it in that way, beside Angra Mainyu who isn't actually part of the grail.


This is personally influenced by my own view but evil must always serve a greater good in the end. Even a tainted grail that believed it was tearing a soul from it's vessel, unaware that the vessel was expended and a new one could be fashioned

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



You should read the Book of the New sun Raenir, and also post about it in the Gene Wolfe thread. It's one of the most Narrative and beautiful arguments of reasoning dealing with the problem of Evil, as conceptualized by philosophers. Also great prose, a cool story, a badass sword, and a neat unique setting.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3435386

Here's the thread

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012




You should read the Book of the New Sun and It's sequel series yesterday.

The main Character is a Torturer who practices their art often, and yet the journey he goes on has cause 40 years of argument, three separate podcasts, and 3 published books, over whether or not what he does is morally good or correct

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



If that's you felt watching the movie the movie didn't do it justice. Heavens feel isn't my favorite route but the kirei fight is by and by far the coolest fight in the series.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



The easiest way to think of the Routes is in terms of Kanye albums

First Route is obviously Heartless, You can see where it's going, it ain't bad, but it feels underdeveloped

UBW is My beautiful Dark twisted fantasy, the obvious Magnum Opus, Everything is built on to amazing results, you're going to be blown away

Heaven's Feel is Watch the Throne It's not bad, but after the last route you're expecting more, there's real doldrums, but goddamn when it hits it hits

I think that's the best way to describe Fate

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



When you really dig in it makes sense

Like Tsukuhime is his Gradutation, still a sophomore effort but extremely underrated and forgotten today

FGO is his Pablo unfocused, Misjudged, and Clout chasing. I'd call this NasuKanye's dark period.

Hopefully his Tsukuhime remake will be as good as Jesus is King or KIDS SEE GHOST

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Yeah I had the same reaction after seeing Aruceid's redesign, I was hoping we would skip past Ye

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



It's sorta works given that half her deal in the novel is the difference in how she is vs how she's perceived.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Yeah but at a lesser effect, like how she really isn't as bad a person as she seems in legend.

In all honesty I think the Servants in base fate are weak as hell. Half are gods or demigods that's some nonsense, nearly all the spinoff's have done better

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Both but to a lesser extent as character's although HA does a lot to fix that. But c'mon man, Medusa and Hercules are both bullshit, and Gil barely gets a pass.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Sasaki Kojiro and Gil are the only ones in base I'd call great. Hercules is nothing in berserker, Saber, Medusa and Medea are boring, Cursed arm exists, Archer is cool but like, cmon can't use him as a hero, Lancer.

In many ways F/sn is a game that's good in spite of itself, even zero had a clearer idea of who and what the servants were and what they represented.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



I did and would not, I said it had better realizations of it's servants as idealizations of humanities heroes whereas F/SN phones it in completely.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Your point? Making a series with the premise that humanities greatest heroes of legend gather to fight, and then having half of them be Divine or nobodies is lame.

It speaks to Nasu's ability to mature as a writer that he managed to better meld the concept with the actualization in his latter works.

Captain Baal posted:

Unlike my man Urobuchi who definitely does that for like half of them until he's done with them and brutally murders them or in the case of Diarmuid strips him of literally all of his dignity and then brutally murders him. The only ones treated with genuine reverence by the end of it all are Saber, Gil, and Iskandar.

You're letting your hatred of Zero get in the way of my point. I don't think Urobuchi is a good writer, I don't even think he's a passable writer, but he's one who managed the concept of the holy grail war with more finesse than Nasu did on his first pass

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Aurora posted:

it's almost like a bunch of legendary heroes are gods or part god

They've quite shown numerous other's that aren't divine in the extended works.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Aurora posted:

god you're dumb

Do you have any actual position to take other than that you dislike Zero and like F/SN? Opinions that I also share.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Captain Baal posted:

I mean it's as lame as you want it to be. I don't understand why the fact the story does something more with its basic premise than service the very simple perspective you seem to have on it is a negative? If you don't care for it sure, but this insipid condemnation of it for being something else entirely and using its characters to tell the story of Shiro Emiya and his friends is weird? Like the fact that you brought up Archer before and you're like "Oh yeah this character's cool, but come on man he's not..." is really weird because you'd think the fact that it thought outside of the box would be a plus but apparently not?
I don't think it's an either or situation at all, Hercules only defining character in the work is him being really strong and partially divine, you could easily switch him out with someone else. Medea and Medusa both use their own legends to very lesser degree's and suffer for it, Medusa get's chumped on most the routes. If you're going to include legends, you should intertwine their own legends in with the novels story as well. At it's worst it feels like Nasu is just writing fanfiction about his OC's

Gil and Saber actually both stand out in contrast to this, having their intrinsic characters well woven into the fabric of the tale, Saber just suffers from being blander than an unseasoned potato.

Shirou I however think is very well done, one of the best Protagonists of the genre, well fleshed out and explored.

Captain Baal posted:

I mean there's no hatred. Zero's good and I like several aspects of it, but the heroic spirits representing humanity really feels like a weird take considering half of them there suck and the human characters overall have the actual interesting character drama? Kiritsugu aside who I don't care for but everyone else to some extent has good stuff going on.

I'm mostly in agreement with this, I rather take offense to people accusing me of being some Urobuchi diehard out to sully their sacred FSN. Almost all the good of Zero comes out of the basic outline of the war provided by Nasu, and the character's whom I'm sure he had help with. There are other parts that work alright, but anytime you see Urobuchi's actual writing shine through you can tell he's a hack who thinks he's more clever than he actually is.

See also Psycho Pass

Acerbatus posted:

x-men is going to blow that guy's mind

Ngl Xmen sucks so much balls, I have zero idea who keeps reading that poo poo.



Aurora posted:

no one said this

It's the implication of your previous post, unless you would perhaps like to clarify instead of dropping one sentence posts?

Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Apr 14, 2021

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Captain Baal posted:

I think these are uncharitable readings of the the characters and their roles in FSN. Herc is absolutely meat mountain mid boss that's meant to be an obstacle, but he's also Hercules because there's a lot of things that come with being the most famous mythological figure in all of history. The invincibility is there because of the labors of the character and this is used multiple times to not only contrast strength of characters, but raise stakes, show character development, and in the case of the Deen anime it creates a David and Goliath fight in Archer vs Berserker that adds a lot of status to Archer posthumously (This of course existed already, but we get to see the details in that anime). His relationship with Illya is entirely founded upon Herc's killing of his own family against his will and wanting to protect Illya so that doesn't happen to her. This increases the stakes and gives added context and characterization to him for scenes like Herc vs Gil or Herc vs Saber where he is so desperate to protect Illya that he continuously fights well past the point logic dictates (That and he's a loving berserker, but it can be both). So like can Herc's spot in the story just be big unbeatable divine dude? Does it necessarily have to be Herc? Technically no, but that doesn't matter.

Hmm I like this reading but it's hard to disentangle it from his unfortunate turn at being the berserker class,one could say that all this is reflecting his mythology, but just as easily reflect the fact that he's a mindless husk fit only for fighting. We see the first interpretation when he protects Ilya from the wolves, but unlike saber he has no added or shifted personality when controlled by Sakura.


Captain Baal posted:

Have aspects of their origins been rewritten to suit what Nasu wants to do with the characters more? Sure. Does that matter? Stories have been retold through time over and over again and have had aspects reshaped constantly, especially those of mythology and fables. So like if you think him using pre-established fictional figures to tell a story here is like lazy or just him trying to cut corners when he could just make other OCs instead I'd say your understanding of why anyone does anything is very shallow and boring? Not to be a dick, but I can't say this in a way that doesn't come off mean.

I'm not saying he's using them as OC's, rather that his writing synchonorizes them poorly into his own work. What is Herakles's sword? What is Rule breaker? they've nothing to do with the original myths. This is presented as a story that brings mythological heroes into a battle drawing on centuries of tradition and story telling, have you ever heard the story of Medea and Rule breaker?

Ruler Breaker is the worst of the lot being a very conspicuous plot contrivance.

Captain Baal posted:

Also I noticed you didn't mention him, but Cu is outright the only real heroic spirit in the entire game that is exactly what it says on the tin. If you have an issue with him, I mean you're just wrong. I don't know what else to say about it.
I often forget he exists, he's fine but his outfit is stupid


Raxivace posted:

I'd argue Medea is also meant as a parallel to Sakura (Maybe not to quite the degree that Medusa is, but relatively close), and is the reason why Rule Breaker is integral to climax of Heaven's Feel.
This would feel better if there was in any way a basis for Rule Breaker existing, I also don't love the parallel. Is Emiya supposed to be Jason? He doesn't exactly callously toss away Sakura, even in the other routes


Endorph posted:

also, 'medusa uses her legend to a lesser degree?' shes a somewhat under explored character in fsn but her entire character and motivation is probably the most tied to her legend of anyone, even more than saber. her sole motivation is protecting a girl who was sexually abused, given monstrous powers, and who, if shirou was a 'hero' in the sense he wants to be, hed have killed upon realizing what she was. sakura's medusa, medusa is sakura. its the entire thematic beat of heaven's feel and its tied solely into medusa's legend. the game never explicitly makes this connection but i think its obvious enough it wouldn't gain anything from shirou going 'thats right... this is just like...' and then a flash to full gorgon medusa or whatever.
I'll consider this.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Raxivace posted:

Shinji is the character I had in mind for a Jason parallel. You could maybe argue Zouken too I guess, since they're both dudes who rely on exploiting Sakura's powerful magic to accomplish their own goals against her will.

I can see where you're coming from but it feels very tenuous. For it to work for me I feel you'd need both a positive and a downslide to the relationship. Zouken and Shinji are purely bad at basically everypoint.

Just Andi Now posted:

Someone's forgetting about Mind of Steel.

I wished they had continued that route, I wanna see just how absolutely hosed Shirou was by the end of it.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Just Andi Now posted:

If we're gonna roll with Medea being a Sakura parallel, I'd have to say Shirou is her Jason figure, but it's a perceived betrayal, rather than actual. She thinks he's abandoned her for Rin, which she accuses Rin of in one of the interludes.

She's loving right I would.

Captain Baal posted:

I don't want to write any more paragraphs so any response I make from here on is going to be one sentence at most as I very rarely get free time to myself on weekdays or have the desire to effort post. Please take consideration in your follow up posts as I'm not getting out of this chair to do anything other than piss and go get another hard seltzer.

I'm going to sleep homie

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Dr Pepper posted:

Nasu seems to have put God at a similar level of power as Buddha, that is to say so powerful that their direct interference would basically solve the series problems so he just doesn't have them be involved.

I kicked buddhas rear end in Extra

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Cephas posted:

8. tldr; Shirou saying "I want to live" is really moving, and despite all of the absolutely insane lore and nonsense that comes with Nasu's writing, I feel like FSN tackles the subjects of PTSD and abuse in a way that really deeply resonated with me, it really stands out to me as a meaningful story

It's the strongest part of the story for sure.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Play umineko

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



I don't know if that'll work, once Umineko hits it totally consumes your thoughts. At least in my experience.

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Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Except for one particular section as a whole Umineko never really lets off the gas after the first twilight

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