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Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Honestly that's what I like about it. IMO Nasu's best at his most pretentious, when you have to guess at what the hell anyone's thinking. If someone like Touko got the Shirou treatment we'd get mountains of :words: about how she wanted to be a super magician but she hates her sister so much oh noooo. That was my main problem with F/SN: most of the time the characters were just vehicles for whatever theme Nasu wanted to get at, and not much beyond. The character arcs felt way overwrought.

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Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


To be fair those are mostly the Zero-only folks who had to die. Kiritsugu/Kotomine/Gilgamesh are the really important ones (though I guess you could say they act like children, if you know some really hosed-up children), and they get a lot more screen time and dialogue than in stay/night.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Eh it's a huge stretch imo to say that the main chars simply "lack emotional maturity". Gilgamesh and Kotomine are straight up inhuman, which is why they're fascinating. I don't buy that you can characterize them as simply amoral. With Kiritsugu, even if he ends up as a catastrophic failure, his world view was hardened over a long life as a soldier. Just because he's stubborn and wrong about a lot of things, I don't think it makes him more childish for it than, say, Saber (and the comparison between those two is often made).

In general I think it's unfair to single out extreme ethical positions when there are anime stakes involved. These aren't salarymen. It makes sense that when the big fuckoff grail is in sight, duty and family honor are not the primary concerns. Perhaps it makes the characters less relatable, but that's what happens when everything is magic.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Leaves you with a sense of moral dissonance though. In particular I'm thinking of people's reactions to Sakura's route vs. Mind of Steel... I genuinely don't think there's a right answer in those circumstances, since real humans don't get to make those calls any more, and hopefully will never have to again.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


That's not really what I meant. With Kotomine at least, I don't see how he could be seen as simply immature. He seems to me to be more like a thought experiment of what somebody who doesn't give a gently caress would do. Like with Endorph's quotes, isn't he talking about other people, placing himself outside of that classification? By the end, he just wants to see a "fetus" being born to see what would happen.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


I'm still not convinced re: Kotomine, but I'll concede for now since I don't remember too clearly the events of HF. Maybe it's time for a re-read (though it's kind of hard to commit to, given that Hollow/ataraxia has reminded me that Nasu seriously needs to shut up about food. It's not even ironically funny any more).

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


gently caress the card minigame in hollow/ataraxia is stupid and infuriating and I can't stop playing it

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Twiddy posted:

If by stupid and infuriating you mean broken and kind of easy (unless we're just bitching about how terrible Shinji and that one ability Caster has are, yeah).

Once you figure out the AI does not play around what abilities you have at all you've broken it.


EDIT: ^^

Speaking of, haha oh man their ability in the FHA Hanafuda is broken as poo poo. The only reason I can tolerate playing against its broken rear end is because it trivializes everything when you get to use it.

Not sure what you mean by AI not playing around abilities. You just get the one NP that moves a card you need to the top of the deck, right? You still have to hope that you have a card in the same month to actually take it with. Going by your post I'm sure I'm missing something obvious about the game.

And by infuriating I mean that sometimes you can't do anything about losses, especially if the opponent has first pick. Not to mention that sometimes you literally win or lose 6 points before the round even starts...

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


legoman727 posted:

So Hollow Ataraxia is pretty great.

...Except the Hanafuda. Can someone explain this game to me because it feels like a gigantic luck based bullshit and the tutorial fight with not-Shinji is repeatedly kicking my rear end.

I am apparently only on the first route, but some things to keep in mind are: take note of which cards are involved in important combos (the flower that's in Flower View and Moon View, for instance), denying the combos your opponent has coming up if possible, and to rush to 10 misc cards to end a round if things aren't going your way. Also check the associated month for cards when necessary (mostly when using the Noble Phantasm)

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


BlitzBlast posted:

To be honest, most of my like of F/SN comes from the presentation, particularly the whole "story told over three separate arcs" thing. The story itself is kind of eh (especially when you look at each route individually), the setting seems to be the perfect breeding ground for :spergin:, and if I had a nickel for every time I've read "this character may seem overpowered, but he's not actually because of this list of weaknesses that will never be relevant and are only around so the character doesn't look OP" in a fanwork then I'd be a millionaire.

Nasu writes good endings (by VN standards at least), and to me that's all I can really hope for. I think Tsukihime's epilogue is still my favorite thing out of all he's done.

Also I find bad pacing a lot more tolerable in VN form than in anime, since it's a lot easier to control the pace yourself whether by skimming or straight-up skipping stuff.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Silver2195 posted:

The Good Endings in Tsukihime are actually pretty bad. Nasu does write bittersweet and tragic endings very well, though.

Oh, yeah. I don't really count most of the Good Ends since most of them seem to be just for kicks (ie. UBW Good). I guess the only one that was halfway serious was Hisui Good? I forget how that one went, honestly.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


I haven't been keeping up with the anime, but has it really been that bad? I can certainly believe that an adaptation of a Nasu VN might have bad pacing but yikes, some of the reactions in the anime thread... is it just a few guys who hate the show, or has it been generally poorly-received by non-VN readers?

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


a kitten posted:

I did just start reading (playing?) the FSN visual novel due mainly to becoming more interested in the setting and storylines because of the UBW anime.

Hope you enjoy reading about food :v:

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Yeah Paradox Spiral is great. Though admittedly I'm still not sure what Araya's whole experiment deal actually does, other than "it's magic". Since it's Nasu I guess I just missed some technobabble about the Akashic records or something.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


I really liked Movie 7, maybe even more than 5. I guess it all depends on how you feel about Mikiya/the villain though.

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Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


I don't see that much difference between Ryougi and Tohno, honestly. I definitely wouldn't put Tohno down as generic, even if he's marginally more able to exist in society without murdering dudes. If anything I think Shirou is a more conventional protagonist, even if he has a lot more going on character-wise.

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