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Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I liked the cooking scenes.

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Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Aumanor posted:

Okay, now that there's a thread to post spoilers in, how do you think the UBW anime will tackle Rin seeing Archer's past in her dreams? Those scenes were rather important in establishing Rin's character, showcasing in particular how similar she is to Shirou in some aspects, and I'm not sure if they'll survive the adaptation.

That actually seems like the easiest part of the adaption? Just show the dream, and make it clear it's Rin's by showing her sleeping or whatever.

Honestly I think the Archer/Shirou battle is a nightmare to adapt since it takes place entirely inside his head, but for some reason people are looking forward to that one being animated.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Scrree posted:

What are the chances Ufotable slip a tiny Sakura silhouette in the corner of the pole vaulting flashback? I was happy to see the other orphans in Shirou's adoption memory, and I want them to twist that knife as much as possible.

Interestingly, apparently they all heard that Kiritsugu was a wizard. Or at least they should have, given he wasn't whispering or anything.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I think he'd probably find it suitably tragic/ironic that Kiritsugu's son grew up to be just as unhappy as he was for the exact same reasons. Having Shirou killed early just means there's less time for him to suffer.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Beef Waifu posted:

It's not left to the imagination. It's a bad ending telling you "That was a dumb thing to do loser, don't do that." It's not like they put a ton of thought into most of them, or do you think hotel shark is something worth a thought beyond "lol?"

No, that one's a bit different. Even in the Taiga Dojo bit they say something like "well, I guess that was a reasonable choice, but it's not the story we're trying to tell here so we can't show all the details."

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


BlitzBlast posted:

Ilya literally calls you an idiot, and Taiga just goes "no comment".

Taiga says "...I can't say much this time. This is one result." While you interpreted that as "no comment", in the context that she usually scolds you for doing something wrong and tells you what to do better, it's pretty clear that she's saying something more like "I can't scold you here, this is just the choice you made."

Ilya calls you an idiot because of her own character, since she's pretty much the person you made the choice to.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I always found it amusing how that fight scene was almost exactly like the one in Kara No Kyoukai against the eye girl.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Sakura is more interesting than Saber but not as cool as Rin. However, I think she makes the best love interest because of how she bounces off of Shirou.

I actually liked HF for kicking the Servants to the curb and focusing on the Mages. It makes sense that the people in charge of the summoning ritual would have a manual override. This ain't a charity after all.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Eh, Sakura is basically the same as Shirou. She felt her life had no meaning so she clings desperately to the only thing she feels she has control of. HF Sakura basically acts the same as UBW Shirou, irrational stubbornness and all, so all you can do is sit back and admire their insanity. Yeah, she has a super-horrible past and all that, but honestly that doesn't really matter. The game constantly tells you that it doesn't want you to sympathize with her for it, through both Shirou and Rin. It's no use trying to understand what she's been through, so you can either accept her as she is or not. It is a flaw that she essentially doesn't exist for 2/3 of the game though.

Shinji is... just a jerk. It seems like a strange use of a character.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Sylphid posted:

zero made it a lot clearer why the Command Spells are important. Three chances to compel your Servant to do something specific or gain a very momentary advantage, like teleporting somewhere or what have you. If you use them for stupid things, then other Masters still have those chances you wasted.

The teleporting and whatnot existed in the original too, you must have forgotten. Actually, that's the only thing they've ever really been used for. Shirou teleported Saber to save his life. It's kind of funny how the characters make a big deal of them but they're never really important to the story.

Yosuke posted:

As for why you can't use all three of them, it was made clear in Fate (though never practiced) in the explanation that once you use up all three, you're out of the War. You are no longer the master and thus, there is no connection: the Servant has no mana to use to stay in Fuyuki. Its an immediate forfeit, basically.

Yup. A Master without a Servant is still technically in the game, but a Master without a command seal is just some ordinary Mage. They are no longer qualified to have the Grail grant their wish, no matter what they do. Unless they steal another command seal from someone else. Eh, it's the Nasuverse: rules are meant to be broken.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rodyle posted:

It's still totally possible to win with no command seals and have a contract, but that makes you a big dummy like Waver and you are totally reliant on your Servant's goodwill at that point.

Pretty sure the Grail itself wouldn't recognize you at that point, so even if you beat up all the other Servants with your own bare fists you still couldn't win because there's no win condition. You might as well say that a random bystander who happened to not die also "won". I mean, yeah, you could beg a Servant to make a wish that favors you (the grail being made of pure evil notwithstanding), but if they wish for world peace or whatever than everyone in the world is just as much the winner.

...I just don't think it counts.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Lt. Lizard posted:

I think you are mixing that up. Command Seals are a sing of you being chosen by the Grail, not a cause. Once chosen, you are eligible for the Holy Grail, regardless of the number of Command Seals you posses or if you have a Servant. For an example, supervisors of the Grail War, like Risei, have multiple extra Command Seals for "safekeeping" even before the War begins, but they don't summon Servants and are not recognized as Master.

As was stated above by other posters, the whole thing with needing Command Seals to win is because you need all 7 Servants to create a complete Grail capable of reaching the Origin. So the victorious Master needs at least 1 Command Seal to order his/her Servant to kill itself, or the Grail wont be able to perform its intended function.

I dunno about the first part since honestly the situation never comes up and isn't relevant. I don't think there's any real evidence of my position though so okay.

As for the second part though, as people have been pointing out, absolutely none of the Masters chosen for the 5th War can possibly "win" by your definition, since the only one who knows anything about it is Ilya and she dies as part of the process. So in that sense, even being chosen by the Grail is irrelevant because they couldn't "win" in the first place. Having a command seal, having a servant, all of that becomes irrelevant. And even if they knew, I doubt any of them except maybe Rin would consider it a win anyway.

So, for my purposes, I was defining a win as having access to the infinite mana that is a side effect of the 3rd Sorcery or whatever. That's the wish that everyone else is fighting for, and it's clearly possible to use that without ordering your Servants to kill themselves. Of course, then you run into the "grail is made of pure evil" problem, but that's not a function of the system itself such much as an accident of the 3rd War.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Bholder posted:

I thought she cannot turn incorporeal because Shirou sucks.

That was a lie she told (or maybe just didn't deny Rin's speculation? I can't remember), to avoid revealing the truth.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


BlitzBlast posted:

Be sure to use an extra projection while you're on the Normal End run so you skip Kotomine vs Shirou. That's something you should really save to the end.

Oh, is that how it works? I must have done it by accident the first time through because that was an awesome surprise.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


From what I understand of the complaints about Shirou, it's less that they think he's a whiny teenager and more that they think he's a bland self-insert harem protagonist. Because, well, he does has a harem and the biggest characterization bit he's had so far is that he's too nice. Which is a fairly standard self-insert trait. It'll take pushing him to the point where "too nice" is more obviously a flaw to start seeing him as his own character.

As a tangent, I wonder what these people would think of Shiki, who really does have very little personality when he's not going crazy and stabbing chairs. For that matter, is he going to have a personality in the Tsukihime remake?

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


MonsieurChoc posted:

I dunno, I thought Shirou and Saber came off more as bros than romantic interest in this version, which I liked!

I don't disagree with that, but from a VN perspective with branching paths it doesn't actually matter if they all love you in the same timeline. Just the fact that it's a possibility, along with being disproportionately surrounded by women, is enough to make it feel harem-esque.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


So basically they're an ordinary-ish family being controlled by an immortal worm monster posing as their eternal patriarch. Which almost explains how screwed up Shinji is.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Serious Frolicking posted:

When a dude is so into rape worms that he decides that he wants to live forever as a colony of rape worms there might be something wrong with his head.

That's kind of backwards: he wanted to live forever to accomplish his goal, but was so bad at living forever that he ended up as rape worms instead of a vampire or whatever. And because being rape worms screwed up his mind so much, he forgot what his goal was. It's sort of tragic, technically.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Zouken won, for the most part.

As a side note, something I respect about Zouken is that he was never content to just summon a powerful servant and pray for victory, like everyone else always did. He thought bigger, and considered the Holy Grail ritual itself as a tool he could use. His plan to create a fake grail and take possession of that kind of makes Kiritsugu and the Einzberns and Tokiomi and everyone else seem like complete chumps. You have to respect him for taking Sun Tzu to heart and winning the war before even encountering the enemy.

Too bad he was a rapey dickworm.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rodyle posted:

Well Zouken was one of the creators of the ritual so he has more leeway in that sense. And to be fair he's not the only one who tampers with the system, both Caster and Kayneth do that.

Oh, everyone tries to cheat, bending rules here and there, and the Einzberns have even made a habit of it, but they're always focused on having more or better Servants. The idea that Servants themselves are just a means to an end doesn't seem to occur to them. And given that, well, the Einzberns actually provide the vessel of the Grail every single war, you'd think that they would also have the means to tamper with it. Too proud for their own good.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Saber lured Berserker to a graveyard where the tombstones would slow down his swings (marginally). Assassin fought on a narrow staircase where he had both the high ground and forced his opponents to go through him. True Assassin was constantly baiting people into traps. I don't think those strategies of Rider stand out at all. More like you forgot everyone else's strategies. Honestly, that's just the kind of fight Nasu likes to write. The "head-on clash" thing is mostly for when he wants one side to look invincible. And of course Rider slips comfortably back into that when she summons her laser-horse, whose effects are totally indistinguishable from Saber shooting Excalibur.

As for the other Servants, Lancer follows Kotomine's orders to the letter until he's betrayed, even tough he knows that Kotomine is an usurper who killed his real master and stole the command seals. That's a very "knight" mentality. He doesn't like the guy, sure, but he's loyal for the most part, except for that one time in Fate. This is pretty much the same "loyalty" as Rider following Shinji. Caster does everything she does for the sake of... teacher guy who I can't remember the name of. She wants to make him win so she can spend the rest of her life with him or whatever. Just because he never asked for it doesn't mean it's not for his sake. Honestly she acts exactly like Rider: Rider values Sakura's life more than she values Sakura's feelings, and will kill Shirou if he tries to help her commit suicide. Actually, Caster's extremely similar to Rider to the point where I think she makes Rider even more redundant. That's just me though. Berserker is insane, but also insanely loyal. They kinda make a big deal of this in HF. He gives his all to protect Ilya even when she begs him to stop because she can't stand to seem him die in vain like that. That's... pretty much the only characterization he has in the entire story.

I also don't think Rider's loyalty is ever portrayed as anything resembling a flaw. Heck, to get to the good ending you have to suck up to her. She essentially represents the same idealized "hero for only one person" that Shirou becomes in HF. While for Shiou that's portrayed as a compromise of his earlier ideals, Rider has no such conflict and as such gets off way easier. She even gets to stick around at the end in the super-happy ending. Not even a hint of sacrifice. Also Saber and Zero/Lancer get their honor completely poo poo on by the narrative so I'm not sure why you think it was portrayed as a good thing.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Nov 30, 2014

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


For the record, I think Saber is boring too, so being the same as Saber except less annoying just makes her more boring to me.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Okay, I have to admit I never thought about it like that. I mean, it was obvious that her backstory was a reflection of Sakura's, but I never extrapolated that to imply that her opinion on the matter was worth any more than anyone else's. I never got the sense that any of her lines were particularly meaningful or powerful, but maybe I should replay the route with that in mind. If I ever have time.

I mean, she doesn't beat you over the head with like Archer's "you will not be rewarded for your path!" in UBW.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Myriad Truths posted:

It's because that part isn't spelled out until Hollow Ataraxia where Rider gets a lot more focus.

...so your answer is that she's actually really boring in HF, but gets more interesting in HA?

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


SALT CURES HAM posted:

Yeah, I guess it's a bigger deal since it has the shadow and whatnot. I forgot that was actually a big mystery in the early bits of HF.

That said, if they watched Fate/zero, they've already had basically the entire reveal spoiled for them. :v:

Not really. You know that her background sucks and all that, but the idea that she's the one controlling the shadow and killing people (and not merely possessed by it) is something the story holds back for quite a long time. They try to play her up as a pure victim prior to that, and knowing her backstory from Zero kind of means that you're even more inclined to buy that.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Technically the Emperor is the leader of "State Shinto", but they never portray him in any story, as far as I can tell.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Raenir Salazar posted:

These are great, but holy crap this is the opposite to how I've been raised in the West. Here, we pull the Lanniser/Stark Game of Thrones thing where its family first outsiders come gently caress never.

It is family first, but combined with Japanese humility. Essentially the family is being treated as a single unit, and Akiha is accepting the compliment on his behalf. Saying "yeah, I'm really proud of myself" is seen as arrogant, so she instead tried to downplay it by saying 'no, really, I'm not that great". It's way more "family first" than what you're thinking of, since the individuals aren't even seen as individuals, they're merely instances of their family.

Of course, it also applies to coworkers and classmates and whatever other groups you might be a part of.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.



勘 (かん)
Noun
perception; intuition; the sixth sense

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Raenir Salazar posted:

Sure, but how come they cut Kuzuki who I presume still managed to "block" or deflect them the same way he did Excalibur.

With Excalibur he seemed to be making sure to "catch" it on the flat side. By contrast, with Shirou's first sword he just punched it right on the non-existent blade and it broke. He probably assumed it was more like Shirou's other sword and less like Excalibur, so he didn't take any precautions. And, well, they were just scratches and probably wouldn't have slowed him down at all if they kept going.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Raenir Salazar posted:

I remember him constantly trying to strengthen various objects (such as a pipe) but I don't remember him projecting something. :(

He projected like teapots and stuff to calm himself down after failing strengthening.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Nate RFB posted:

This, at the very least, I don't think is accurate.
I can't read that in any other context other than it trying to showcase that UBW is intrinsic to Shirou's very being and soul, rather than something that naturally "grew" out of his ability to project swords. And since he lost Avalon after Fate, is his Origin/Affinity still the same? Would he somehow lose the ability to project in the first place as a result?

The way I read it, Avalon simply changed his Origin after the fire (since he was empty after being burned by pure evil, etc etc). After that, it stopped being relevant. And, well, his origin could have been "swords" in the first place, but that would have been more coincidental and random.

And your Origin is, of course, basically just fortunetelling. It gives a general shape to your life that might only be noticeable in retrospect. There's magic that taps into it, like Kiritsugu's bone bullets (which tap into the "binding and severing" thing that is demonstrated by him constantly losing the important people in his life), but Shirou isn't doing anything like that, he's just living as a sword all his life. Your Reality Marble is just your internal reality, so it's just his state of mind. That not unrelated to his Origin, since that's what shaped his life in the first place, but UBW is the result of his life and nothing else.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the way that makes the most sense to me. And also corresponds to how Origins have been presented in other works like Kara no Kyoukai.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Endorph posted:

The closest it gets to any of that is a dating sim based gag, and, well that is a bad joke, but it's being played for laughs and not an actual attempt at fanservice. It's not like it's a fanservice series, it's a comedy series.

I don't think you can reasonably argue that it's not fan pandering though.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Gilgamesh is Chaotic Good. Therefore we're supposed to agree with his plan to kill everyone. QED.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Saber deserves to die. Thus, the True Ending.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rin doesn't have an exceptionally huge amount of mana (good for a mage, but not super-awesome), so that just begs the question of why no one else did it earlier, or why Gil needed a special circumstance to explain his existence. Also, I don't think it makes any sense from Saber's perspective to want to stick around. She hasn't gone through her character development in Fate, so she should still be seeking the Grail, which no longer exists in Rin's world. And it's not like she was ever super-best friends with them in UBW: she respects them, but certainly not enough to give up her life's dream for them. The Good Ending of UBW just makes no sense at all.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 15:03 on May 6, 2015

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


HellCopter posted:

The Avalon thing always sat weird with me. You're required to play the game in the order of Fate -> UBW -> Heaven's Feel, and Saber is more and more marginalized every route. By HF, Shirou's certainly not interested in dating her, and I've forgotten her purpose as anything other than "girl with sword". And that's when they bust out the *bonus true happy ending*?

Saber is the mascot of the series. That's why every Fate work needs to have its own Saber-clone.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I think the important thing to note here is that neither are actually used in the Japanese, as far as I know. I'm betting some translator just thought they were appropriate, and probably wrote an essay somewhere justifying their choice.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Until proven otherwise, we have to assume that they made a bet that they could get everyone to say Prana on message boards.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


GhostStalker posted:

She and the ANN Executive Editor just put out a 2 and a half hour podcast with a guest Fate fan earlier this week that is pretty negative about Fate/Zero, as well as the fanbase of the show as well. It explains why she never comes by ADTRW though, I guess...

I'm trying to listen to that, but it just gets frustrating to have the guest fan stop and explain everything all the time. "Technically..." I guess it's fair and balanced all that, but by god is it hard to listen to.

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Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I believe you'll find that they're actually waging a lonely and misunderstood war and that they will never be rewarded for it.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 01:39 on May 18, 2015

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