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Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


I liked the whole Heaven's Feel route, including the early bits.

They helped to establish that the Holy Grail War was completely off the rails and create a mounting sense of despair, impotence and hopelessness, so there was tremendous pay-off once the poo poo went down. The HF finale would be a lot less memorable without all the build-up.

Plus, it had few nice, tense, almost horror-like moments, like the scenes at Ryuudou Temple or the confrontation between Shirou and Zouken at Matou household, that were kind of nifty, if not as cool as the big battles.

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Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Xoidanor posted:

Even after all these years the fact that Fate/Stay Night has bad ends and dead ends be separate things never stops being amusing to me. Especially considering that some of the bad ends are even worse then the dead ends.

....There is a difference between "bad end" and "dead end"? I always thought that they were just two different ways to call the same thing.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Blhue posted:

Been a while, but iirc, a Dead end means Shirou died, a Bad End is an ending where he doesn't necessarily die, but the path he's set on isn't one that will end happily.

Funny, I never noticed there was a distinction, but that makes sense. Although I do wonder how are classified those hosed-up ends where Shiro is technically alive, but would be better off dead.

As for Mind of Steel, Kotomine seemed to really like the new Shiro, so I always figured he would help him out a bit.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Clarste posted:

Pretty sure the Grail itself wouldn't recognize you at that point, so even if you beat up all the other Servants with your own bare fists you still couldn't win because there's no win condition. You might as well say that a random bystander who happened to not die also "won". I mean, yeah, you could beg a Servant to make a wish that favors you (the grail being made of pure evil notwithstanding), but if they wish for world peace or whatever than everyone in the world is just as much the winner.

...I just don't think it counts.

I think you are mixing that up. Command Seals are a sing of you being chosen by the Grail, not a cause. Once chosen, you are eligible for the Holy Grail, regardless of the number of Command Seals you posses or if you have a Servant. For an example, supervisors of the Grail War, like Risei, have multiple extra Command Seals for "safekeeping" even before the War begins, but they don't summon Servants and are not recognized as Master.

As was stated above by other posters, the whole thing with needing Command Seals to win is because you need all 7 Servants to create a complete Grail capable of reaching the Origin. So the victorious Master needs at least 1 Command Seal to order his/her Servant to kill itself, or the Grail wont be able to perform its intended function.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


I'm not sure Zouken still remembers: by the Fifth Grail War Zouken's body is falling apart to the point of him becoming pretty much senile and he just wants to use Grail to become immortal. Just before he dies, he remembers what the Grail is and why does he wants it, but I don't think he realized it beforehand.

Outside of him, yeah Kotomine knows for sure and so does Caster. Illya does as well, because she was the one who delivered the whole exposition about the true purpose of Holy Grail War in Heaven's Feel. Sakura might know about it, considering she is a heir of Matou family and was trained by presumably more lucid Zouken to be utilized in next Grail War, but either way, she doesn't care.

Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Oct 15, 2014

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Hommando posted:

HF True is the best ending because it has the most Rider.

This here is objective truth.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Bholder posted:

Actually how much Kirei is there on the UBW path?

I mainly remember this talk, then at one point he gets killed by Caster or something like that, the Gilgamesh goes rogue and kills everybody.


ˇˇRight, now I remember. I thought Caster stole Lancer too, but he just simply had it with Kirei's poo poo.

If I remember it right... (also MASSIVE spoilers for UBW obviously}:

He gets the usual introduction in the church.

After Rider is killed, Shinji goes to Kotomine and whines about how its unfair and that he lost only because he got such a lovely Servant. Kotomine "gives" him command over Gilgamesh, basically just because he considers it hilarious. Gilgamesh doesn't really need a Master at this point, so he plays along while doing his own thing.

Caster takes over the church and everyone thinks Kotomine is dead.

During the Archer/Shirou duel, Kotomine suddenly appears in front of captured Rin, together with Shinji and Lancer and reveals that he was Lancers Master all along and pretty much just does stereotypical evil gloating while stating that he will let Shinji rape her. Lancer disagrees, so Kotomine uses his Command Seal and orders him to kill himself. Unlike Diarmuid, Cú Chulainn proves to not be a little bitch and gets up again, kills Kotomine, scares the crap out of Shinji, frees Rin and turns the whole Einzbern mansion into his funeral pyre.

...and thats it. He is basically non-entity in UBW route.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


YggdrasilTM posted:

"…But we can only bet on Ilyasviel for now. If Archer is right about Caster's identity, Berserker would be her natural enemy.
They knew each other when they were alive, so he should know Caster's tricks. Berserker can handle Caster and Archer by himself. We can take care of Kuzuki while he does so."

"That's an optimistic thought. But does Berserker really know Caster?"
"Yes. Archer told me that Berserker's true identity is Hercules.
If Caster really is that witch, Berserker might know her through the Argo Expedition.
It's just like how I don't get along with Kirei. Everyone has a natural enemy."

Thinking about it, its kind of pity that we didn't see Berserker and Caster interact with each other.

Or that we didn't see Berserker sane except for his dying moments. Overall, the use of Hercules in F/SN was one huge wasted opportunity.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Scrree posted:

I'm pretty sure Tokiomi didn't know about Zouken's worm-vampirism shtick. The entire reason he gave Sakura to the Matous was to let her develop her skills as an inheritor, but Zouken doesn't have inheritors, only puppets.

That's also why Kariya was kind of a poo poo despite having a lot of sympathetic scenes - he subconsciously avoided any plan to save Sakura that didn't involve killing Tokiomi and marrying Aoi because he wanted that more then he wanted to save her.

I don't think Tokiomi knew that Zouken never intended to make Sakura a heir and was turning her into a disposable grail vessel for the next Grail War and would definitely have some issues with that, but I bet he knew all about Zouken rape worms and what it takes to grant the Matou magic to someone and just considered it a fair price for becoming the heir of a major Magi family.

He knew that Zouken existed, he wasn't surprised about Kariya's use of rape worms when they fought each other, Matou family was living on Tohsaka lands for probably hundreds of years and were close allies and most importantly, I really doubt Tokiomi would give his daughter to a Magi family if he wasn't sure that she would be getting the real deal and that they possessed a powerful magecraft that she would inherit.

Basically Tokiomi was a dick.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Becouse if we have to have internet slapfight about Rider, lets have it here, rather than in UBW thread.

Clarste posted:

2/3 of those things are "she's actually pretty strong, even though she loses immediately in other routes", and given that her finisher is somehow turning a horse into a laser, her fights are pretty damned boring? I mean, other than that the only I can remember her doing is using "Monstrous Strength" to overpower people with the chain. I have no idea what "advanced tactics" you could possibly be thinking of. She's "loyal and chill when outside combat", something she shares with Berserker, Caster, Lancer, Assassin, and who knows who else.

I guess it's possible some people really really like the sympathetic Medusa twist, but I'm pretty the real explanation involves boobs and costume design.

In Fate, she lures Saber outside of the enclosed space where Saber would shred her and then fights her on the side of the skyscraper which gives Saber a lot of trouble and allows Rider to fight equally with her, in UBW she hides in trees and takes potshot at Shiro instead of going straight at him and in final fight in HF she doesn't engage Dark Saber head on and instead zips around her and goes for attacks from awkward angles and other cheapshots. Its not much, but considering that most Servant fights consist of "charge the enemy head on, trade blows with him, the one that gets in disadvantage retreats and then either flees or uses his NP", it does make her stand out.

As for the actual character... Um, Lancer undermines Kotomine on almost every step and even kills him in one route, Caster does whatever the gently caress she wants, Assassin undermines Caster whenever he feels like it and Berserker is insane, so not really? The closest are probably Saber and F/Z Lancer, but even there are major differences because their loyalty comes from honor, while Rider doesn't give a single poo poo about honor, is loyal only to Sakura specifically, that loyalty is absolute and is more of a character flaw in contrast to the more positive depiction of Saber and F/Z Lancer loyalty.

I understand your bafflement over Rider though. Almost EVERYONE in F/SN has some pretty sizable fandom, so its pretty natural that there are few characters where you simply don't understand why do other people like them. I personally have no idea why would anyone like Gilgamesh. Or why is Rin so popular.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


@Clarste: The only reason Assassin was in such an advantageous position is because Caster put him there in the first place. He still surrender it in Fate to use his fancy super attack on Saber AND he surrenders it in UBW too, to have honorable duel with Saber if I remember correctly. True Assassin is a dick and the only other Servant to use some tactics and I like him for it, but is even more obscure than Rider and the only one other servant out of like 13 who does it regularly. Saber did that like...once out of all of her fights she was in and did it only after she charged headlong at Berserker first, meanwhile Rider does it in every major fight she is in. Most other Servants rely on their NP and their skill with weapons, while Rider relies on cheap attacks and exploiting terrain instead of her skill with weapons (because I am pretty sure she doesn't have any) , which makes her fights a bit different. And hey, when all you have is a laser horse, you gotta laser horse, tactics be dammed. Besides I don't understand that complaint, having flying horse that turns into laser is pretty drat cool.

Rider suffers Shinji because Sakura asks her to and doesn't even kill him or openly rebel, which is something that no other Servants ever would do. She also remains absolutely loyal to Sakura once she turns Dark, despite it being both kind of morally wrong and stupid. I don't really think that Shirou having to spend the whole route convincing Rider that he doesn't want to kill Sakura to get her to help him save Sakura and not murder him horrifically is showing Riders loyalty as a positive trait.

The other also has have some pretty good points (that I would hopefully mention too, if we kept the discussion going). So to summarize:

Rider is a darker and more interesting take on Saber archetype, has an interesting relationship with Sakura, is an underdog who seems weak and kind of evil in first two routes before showing her true colors in HF, has cool fights, good visual design, and yeah ok, she is an attractive woman with honking big tits clad in bondage gear.

Basically, there are enough reasons for her popularity, even if you particularly doesn't care about her.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Compendium posted:

Oh yeah, and there's some new Fate/Grand Order stuff that's come out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZabuND1LjU

looks like it's actually gonna be a thing!

EDIT: Gah, that's an old video. New link instead

Ok, how many Saber clones are there in Nasu-verse by now? Five? And thats not even counting alternate versions of Saber like Dark Saber or Saber Lily.

This is getting pretty ridiculous.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


To me, Jeanne looks like Saber with a braided ponytail and a slightly different armour. And from that trailer, Shielder looks like Saber with white (pink?) hair and a different outfit. They both share the same overall design as Saber, just with some minor bits changed/added. I guess they are not literally identical to Saber like Nero and Mordred so you could call them Arturias sisters instead of Arutrias clones if you felt charitable, but eh....

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Uh, I was using exactly those pictures to check if Jeannes and Sabers appearance is really that close, in case my memory was failing me and they look really drat similar to me.

Heck, wasn't that even a minor plot point in Fate/Zero?

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Space Flower posted:

yeah, now it's mashu

Now that you mention it, isn't Mashu basically fusion of Hisui and Saber?

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Endorph posted:

isnt gilgamesh just a fusion of arihiko and araya

No, becouse gilgamesh is trash, and pretending he has anything in common with two good and cool characters is shameful.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


I don't. She is the worst Saber-face.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Blockhouse posted:

I walked away from Fate/Zero unable to give a flying gently caress about Kiritsugu

I can absolutely understand and sympathize with Shirou's particular brand of broke brain than Kiritsugu, a character I hated and wanted to go away constantly so I could see more Waver or literally anyone else (except Kariya)

I feel that the main reason for that is that Shirou's and Kiritsugu's shared ideology is inherently childish and unrealistic.

Now this works fine with Shirou. He is a dumb teenager after all, and two thirds of VN are about him realizing that his ideal is flawed and either recognizing that it is something impossible to achieve but worth striving for and tempering both his expectations and actions, or rejecting it outright in favor for more realistic approach.

Kiritsugu on the other hand is an adult who followed the ideal Shirou has at the beginning of F/SN for his whole life without any growth or realization and does so to the inevitable bitter end in Fate/Zero, which pretty much makes him a dumb man-child.

Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Oct 6, 2018

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Endorph posted:

all im saying is if they're animating dead ends they should animate the one where shirou strips issei

Um, excuse me, that's good end.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


A most noble way of choosing worthy Master, as befitting for King of Knights.

Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Nov 3, 2018

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Gilgamesh's use in Heaven Feels is perfect and no other route of F/SN uses his character in such satisfactory way.

Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 16, 2018

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Stairmaster posted:

I'm starting to think I need to see the Deen version just to see what poo poo they threw in there

If I remember right.... the whole thing is pretty faithful Fate route adaption, until the part in Fate where Caster attacks Shiro's house only to be unceremoniously killed by Gilgamesh who then becomes final boss. In Deen anime, there is no Gilgamesh so Caster manages to capture Saber and Sakura, who is revealed to be mage, Rin's sister and Lesser Grail all at once. Caster then escapes with the intention of using Sakura to manifest Grail ( Sakura is also both unconcious and in her Dark Sakura costume from this point until anime ends). Shiro somehow projects Archers swords in meanwhile and gets on the level of UBW Shiro. Then he and Rin storm Caster's hideout in the same way as in UBW (only with no Lancer alliance and no Lancer vs. Archer fight, becouse Archer was already killed by Berserker) and their fight against Caster and Kuzuki also happens almost exactly like in UBW, except the one ambushing Caster and Kuzuki in the end is Gilgamesh, not Archer. Gilgamesh lets them go, Shiro recontracts with Saber, they save Sakura and the whole thing continues to be pretty much 1:1 Fate route adaption from that point onwards.

It's been like 10 years since I last saw Deen anime, so a lot of details might be wrong, but that's the gist of it. So please don't watch really lovely 10+ years old anime.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


I said it was so long ago that I almost certainly got a lot of details wrong.

In this case I think I was be better off not remembering the abomination she was actually wearing.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Nah, I'm pretty sure she was the one who got Sakura wear that ridiculous outfit. Her hideout was some weird Greek Ruin dimension thing instead of Ryuuda (?) Temple becouse reasons, so there might be Saber vs. Kojiro rematch stuck there somewhere.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Cuntellectual posted:

But I want to know what Sakura's equivalent to the mana dragon/dolphin is in glorious HD.

Well, Realta Nua made her vampire for some reason and all sex scenes were replaced by her sucking blood from Shiro's neck, so that was the alternative.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Also no Rider and no Sakura. You hosed that one up.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


ACES CURE PLANES posted:

Well, T-M heard how many people loved Carnival Phantasm, heard all the cries for a new one, and decided to make a new Phantasm series.

https://twitter.com/prisma_illya/status/1101044337167613952

...Oh. That's a cruel monkey's paw.

What. They have the entire FGO to mine for basically infinite jokes and character interactions and they go for Prisma Illya?

Just.....what.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Cuntellectual posted:

I've heard deen UBW isn't great but I'm guessing it's still probably the most convenient way to show someone UBW at this point?

The only point that deen UBW had, before the UBW anime came obsoleted even that one thing due to like thousand times better animation, was to serve as fan-service for fans who already played UBW route in visual novel and wanted to see all the cool poo poo animated. People can argue that UBW anime made some weird or bad choices about pacing or how it decides to adapt certain elements of plot, but UBW movie doesn't have those problems because it just straight out doesn't adapt like 90% of the actual plot, leaving pretty much only the fights in and being an incomprehensible mess for anyone who already doesn't know the plot of UBW inside out.

If you want to show someone UBW, show them UBW anime.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Captain Baal posted:

I'm gonna say I think Arthurian mythology is also pretty played out by this point in Fate and in general. Tbf though I'm also influenced by some annoying rear end in a top hat in an fgo discord I go to who refuses to shut up about how he thinks Morgan should be one of the most powerful characters in the game so some level of spite drives that feeling.

Morgan should be the most powerful 1 star caster in the game.

Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jun 7, 2019

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Grouchio posted:

Doesn't he aid Rin in dismantling the greater grail ten years after FSN (something yet to be written?)

Yeah, IIRC after the end of Fate and UBW routes, Rin comes back to Fuyuki with Waver, try to dismantle the Greater Grail and the whole thing quickly turns into a full-fledged Magi war against Zouken (who is still alive in those two routes and obviously violently disagrees about the whole dismantling grail thing) that is supposed to be just as huge and wild conflict as 5th Grail War, which they end up winning, killing Zouken for good, saving Sakura and dismantling the grail in the process. The whole thing is also barely a footnote in any available Fate material.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


What we clearly need is a Rider route.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Stairmaster posted:

in the scrapped caster route there was a bad end where you gently caress rider and caster stabs you in the back

Uh, how is that a bad end?????

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Raxivace posted:

I haven't played Tsukihime yet. Is this the kind of thing where I should just hold out for the remake?

Uh, I think it depends. The Tsukihime was the first Type Moon Visual Novel, when they were just tiny fan-studio and it shows. Compared to F/SN it's rougher around the edges in almost every aspect. It's art oscillates between bad and mediocre, it has a lot of even more random dead ends, parts of it are even slower and more plodding than the slow, plodding parts of Heavens Feel route, it adheres to a lot of anime cliches that later works subvert or outright ignore and instead of handful of mercifully short H-scenes of F/SN (or none, if you have enhanced edition), there's shitload of them, some of them pretty long, some of them seriously creepy in a bad way and all of them with even worse writing than F/SN ones. If you can stomach all of that, Tsukihime has some pretty great story and world, with bunch of memorable characters and overall it's significantly more horror-like, but that's pretty big if.

For what it's worth, the last time I replayed Tsukihime was something like 7 years ago, and I don't really feel the need to replay it ever again.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Stairmaster posted:

The F/SN remake will only have a caster rider route as new content

Careful, you had a typo there.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Fou is dimension hopping cat-dog-fox-thing, I bet it can be as big, or small, as it feels like at the moment.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


While I love HF movies, to this day I think that they should have adapted HF instead of UBW as anime series. I feel that HFs slow burn development leading to explosive finale would have worked far better as a 20+ episode anime than a series of movies and it would have been a natural sequel to Fate/Zero. Meanwhile UBW, could get the movie adaptation treatment and would probably end up being better than the anime we got.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Rody One Half posted:

Well

It DID get the movie adaptation treatment

Yeah, I meant kinda like that, but good.

Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Nov 19, 2019

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Tribladeofchaos posted:

Uh HF would be a horrible anime series, it would be like 22 episodes of nothing and then have an explosive finish. Plus you realllly can't show most of Sakura's situation like you can in a movie.

I mean, according to that logic we just had two HF movies of nothing. And if their reception is anything to go by, most of watchers really like the kind of "nothing" that early parts of HF route provide. If anything, most of the complaints I saw were mostly about movies moving a bit too fast and not explaining things well enough for casual Fate fans, which are fair, but also kinda inevitable when you are trying to adapt the longest VN route into three movies and also something that would be a far less of an issue with anime.

And it's not like the movies handled Sakura's situation in some kinda of super hardcore explicit way that would be impossible to adapt to anime. They would have to tone down gore, which is whatever, not have explicit on-screen sex scenes, which is again, whatever and cut the scene of Sakura masturbating in the hallway which....uh would be a clear improvement to be honest. Outside of that what's there that couldn't be shown in anime? I mean Fate/Zero already painted us a pretty clear picture of Sakura's situation and that was anime as well.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Eh, there are quite a lot of things that HF movies just kinda throw at the viewer and then quickly move on without really explaining or elaborating on them (Sakura and Rin being siblings is an example off the top of my head), where it's clear that it's kinda assumed that the audience already knows all about them. It does not make watching movies impossible without seeing F/Z and UBW before, but there will be a lot of things that will feel really undeveloped and a lot of big, significant moments will feel less impactful. Also HF true end is a pretty concrete and fulfilling conclusion of the entire "main" Fate franchise (unless they decide to adapt Fate/Hollow Atraxia, of course), so recommending to watch Fate/Zero after it just feels wrong.

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Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


There is only a single question regarding theoretical live action F/SN movie that really matters and you all should think really carefully about it:

Who would you cast to play Saber?

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