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Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


THIS IS THE FRENCH THREAD, IF YOU ARE ON THE ALLIED SIDE PLEASE DO NOT READ IT

Current Chain of Command:

Commander in Chief: Gutter Owl (Corps: St. Hilaire Davout)
2nd in Command: Frankenfreak (Corps: Lannes Vandamme)
3rd in Command: Tevery Best (Corps: Legrande Bernadotte)
4th in Command: Fat Turkey (Corps: Murat Bessiers)

Allied Chain of Command:

Commander in Chief: silvergoose (Corps: Bagration Constantine)
2nd in Command: Aston (Corps: Kienmeyer Liechtenstein Kollowrath)
3rd in Command: Morholt (Corps: Miloradovich Prebyshevsky)
4th in Command: Davin Valkri (Corps: Dokhtorov Langeron)

Reference Map and Starting Troops:



Order of Business:
- Elect Chief Commander and set up the chain of command.
- Have the conference: decide on Corps allocation, strategies, deployment, general orders etc.

Restrictions:
- In the interest of making this game enjoyable for everyone, don't dump both of the Corps on reserve to a single player unless he has other corps that are present on the map at the start.
- Remember that on your turns you can move up to 5 independent and all of your Corps.

Tekopo fucked around with this message at Nov 10, 2014 around 13:58

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OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Frenchie checking in.

I'm new to war games and this game so I recommend you do not elect me commander.

Or do, if you are a spy who wants Napoleon to die.

Strategy talk: it seems this game mechanically favors the defender (especially with cav screens) so the allies have more dudes since they are the offense. I would imagine that makes the allies slightly easier to play as a new player so hopefully someone in here has played this before.

Looks like what we have to do is force them through narrow areas to reduce the number of guns they can bring to bear and constantly annoy with cav. If we can draw units away from their death stacks with invincible retreating horsies then gun them down, that seems good.

Easier said than done, I am still figuring out how to make mans move.

Real life logistics: I'm a night shifter who works 12 hours for the next 3 nights so my hours will be weird but I will check this on my phone when I can.

FOR THE EMPRAH!

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Hey guys, I'm a huge manchild who has to color things with crayons to understand them.




my initial thoughts after looking at the map for a second

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


That colored map is actually extremely helpful for me. Now I can visualize the impassable regions much better, and I can internalize a few major features that I couldn't before:

  • Towns can all be fortified against artillery either going in or coming out. Cavalry can't attack in, but have a hard time attacking out.
  • The forests along the northern mountains are likewise difficult for the artillery, and even worse for cavalry. (Turaser Wald to the west is functionally identical to a town.)
  • The Gold Bach marsh running along the westerm half of the map is a cavalry weak point. Looks like we'll want to keep our cavalry east of here when possible, or support with infantry if we get pushed back here. On the bright side, all but two of our stars are west of the marsh, so they won't be likely targets for a cavalry rush.
  • Of course, the two stars that are cavalry-vulnerable are right along the major road. Woo.
  • The eastern approach of Pratze Berg, on the Allied encampment, is a loving mess of cavalry and artillery restrictions. It's kind of hard to grok the pattern, but I think the short answer is "no circling around from behind here." But if we do take Pratze Berg, the Allies will have a tricky time retaking the position from the east?
  • The 103 super-chokepoint is a bastard to get out of if defended against. You can block against infantry and cavalry getting out. (Artillery attacks aren't blocked, but artillery attacks can't advance, so there you go.) Looks like a trap to me.
  • A few extra minor features: The lake at 117-132 is a defensive strongpoint. The road at 66-67 can be blockaded against cavalry.

So it looks like our fixed battery should either go on the Santon or on the 102-103 approach.
  • The Santon gives us a defense along the major road, and will be hard to dig out. (Tekopo: Are we using the Santon special variant?) If we use the Santon, we should plan for Lannes to fall back from 64 into 73, creating a killzone in 64.
  • 102 makes crossing the super-chokepoint a suicide crossing.

---

Also, to make sure I don't sound like I have the faintest idea what I'm talking about : Can someone explain the tactical execution of the cavalry screens to me? I get that reserve cavalry can retreat without penalty, but I'm not groking how to turn this into a defensive advantage against the Allies. Is it just that the functional rate of attrition is lower than normal, or am I missing something?

Gutter Owl fucked around with this message at Oct 18, 2014 around 21:38

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


Yes, we are using the Santon special rule because otherwise the fixed battery is pointless.

If it was directed at me, I am not going to answer tactical questions because it would be unfair. If it was directed at other people, go ahead

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


Tekopo posted:

- Remember that on your turns you can move up to 5 independent and all of your Corps.

Er, the rulebook (p4, sec 9) and the map say 4 independant, no? Am I missing something?

(EDIT: Of course tactical questions aren't directed at you.)

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


The way I understand cavalry is as follows:

Road blocking. You can force an enemy unit to move 1 space a turn rather than 3 by using your cav as a retreating roadblock.

Splitting blobs up. I think French cav win ties against Allied cav? So to beat you they have to commit 2 units. Get a few horsies feinting and annoying a blob forces them to commit defenders all over the place and then you sweep in and mop them up.

The battle mechanics are what I am definitely the most confused about and I may have to get some toothpicks out on the table and figure out how all this works.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Also, please check your tactics on the proper map, coloring was a long process and I'm sure there are errors all over it.

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


Err yeah 4 activations for independents.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


this seems good to undrstand the flow of the game:

http://www.simmonsgames.com/strateg...erlitzGame.html

although it does not get into rules

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


One point of strategy that I just picked up: An artillery and a 2 strength infantry make the 102-103 chokepoint functionally impassable. Something to keep in mind for unit assignments.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Gutter Owl posted:

One point of strategy that I just picked up: An artillery and a 2 strength infantry make the 102-103 chokepoint functionally impassable. Something to keep in mind for unit assignments.

Sounds like a pretty minimal commitment for a huge benefit

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Heard anything from Rock or White Man?

A RICH WHITE MAN
Jul 30, 2010

See them other chickenheads? They don't never leave the coop.


hi I'd like to be at the bottom of the list of commanders where, knowing absolutely nothing, I will bring disgrace upon my name and disappoint you all.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


A RICH WHITE MAN posted:

hi I'd like to be at the bottom of the list of commanders where, knowing absolutely nothing, I will bring disgrace upon my name and disappoint you all.

So that makes 3 out of 4 at this point. Actually I think only one player out of the 8 has ever played this before.

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


Unless our fourth claims to be an expert, I think we're gonna have to take the top ranks, OkieMurse.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Gutter Owl posted:

Unless our fourth claims to be an expert, I think we're gonna have to take the top ranks, OkieMurse.

Sounds fine to me. I work one more night then I'll really have time to dig in and learn the mechanics. But sometimes the best way to learn is to just shut up and play.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


If no one else wants to and rock's replacement isn't experienced, I will command. I have a lot of time off this week.

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


Let's welcome frankenfreak, that replaces Rockopolis!

frankenfreak
Feb 16, 2007

Almanya önde!
Bir başka hedef!
Sonsuz şef Löw için zafer!


Bonsoir! I'm new to the game as well, so I'm not going to challenge anyone for their desired position and accept the third spot. Once I've finished reading the rules and took a closer look at the map, I'll contribute to the discussion.

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


So, proposed chain of command:
OkieMurse
Gutter Owl
Frankenfreak
A Rich White Man

Sound good?

As for general strategy: Napoleon historically weakened his right flank to draw in the Allies, then applied his hammer to the overextended center. Now, I don't want to make any gross assumptions, but I don't think any goons here are sharper than the greatest military mind of an age. I say we do some variation on the historical strategy.

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


To expand:

The northern mountain lets us refuse the left flank almost entirely. If we can gum up 14 (to prevent a 29-14-13 route), we can force any northern attack through killzones at 41 and 64, in the shadow of the fixed battery at Santon. Bessiers would need to orchestrate the defense of 40, 26, AND 14, though.

Lanners can supply the fixed battery (plus an infantry guard, so the Allies don't get any cute ideas about taking the Santon), then move to hold Tirzikowitz (73), freeing the killzone. Lanners should strip down to pure infantry for this detail, given that towns aren't great for cavalry.

Additionally, we've talked about sealing the 102-103 chokepoint with an artillery and infantry.

With all these in place, we should hopefully divert the Allied hammer down towards Telnitz. There, our reinforcements can tie a bow around them while St. Hilaire and Vandamme hit Pratze Burg.

frankenfreak
Feb 16, 2007

Almanya önde!
Bir başka hedef!
Sonsuz şef Löw için zafer!


A bit stream of consciousness, but here are my initial thoughts:

While the lockdown of the left flank sounds feasible, I'm worried it would tie down too many forces on the flank where the enemy is likely to be the weakest initially. It is, of course, an option if the allied deployment shows a strong focus on this front or when corps from their center start marching north. It's definitely a good card, but I advise against showing it too early.

Sealing 102 is likely a no-brainer.

My biggest worry is the number of troops we can give Legrand initially. It would be a defensible position if not for that. In my opinion, our initial six detachments should go towards creating cavalry screens, not shoring up the defense down there. Of course, that leaves an obvious weak spot for the allies to exploit. Seems rather conducive to the historical "let them stretch their lines, pound the weak spots from the center" strategy.

A strong deployment in the center would also be pretty flexible in responding to whatever the allies decide to do: relieving the right flank, pounding on holes in their lines, or pushing straight east to support an advance of our left.

One thing I noticed is that both Lannes and Murat are positioned to either stay on the left flank or strike south along the road into the big junction at 74. Something to keep in mind. I think Lannes could be a good "switch hitter", able to strike either east or south from his advanced position depending on the situation while Murat and Bessiers hold the left flank, able to move into the defensive positions if need be.

I'm torn about reinforcements. Our victory condition does indeed become a lot harder to achieve if we use them.

Reading the team play rules, I noticed we really need to pay attention to who gets to control what so we can properly coordinate our efforts. If we go with a strong center, it would probably best it's controlled by OkieMurse and Gutter Owl.

Initial cavalry screens go where? Is putting a cordon in 105, 120, and 135 a good idea?

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


I read these posts and they look great but I just finished 16 hours at work so I'm gonna sleep on it and see if I understand better in the morning. French get to rearrange after allies deploy correct?

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Also that chain of command is exactly what I was thinking gutter.

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


At least one detachment must be the fixed battery to the Santon. (Again, I'd also like a guard to go with it, but we can sent a support when the Allies make their move on the north flank). As for the seal, we can either use two initial detachments, or we can let St. Hilaire do a first turn Detach order (sending the artillery and an infantry by road to 102), and move them to guard the approach with two Independent Moves later in the game.

That leaves potentially 5 cavalry screen units.

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


I have placed the chain of command now. Please do corps allocation now please. You can also start doing setup, although keep in mind that it can be changed after you see the Allied deployment.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Okay, here's an initial corps allocation to discuss and tweak:

Legrand: arty, 3inf, 2inf, 3cav, 2cav

St Hilaire: 3guardinf, 3inf, 2cav, 3cav, (arty, 2inf to detach to 102)

Vandamme: 3inf, 2inf, 2cav

Murat: 2inf, 2inf, 2inf, 2cav

Lannes: 3guardinf, 3inf, 2inf, 3cav (arty, 2inf to detach to Santon)

Bessiers: 3inf, 2inf, 2inf, 2cav

Bernadotte: 2inf, 2inf, 2inf, 3inf

Davout: 2inf, 2inf, 2inf, 3inf

I staffed the reinforcements as minimally as I could.

By the way I have this pulled up in Vassal so that it's easier to move poo poo around and tweak, you guys might want to consider the same.
http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Napoleon's_Triumph
http://www.vassalengine.org/download.php

OkieMurse fucked around with this message at Oct 22, 2014 around 19:59

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Would anyone like a particular corps? We have 6 on table, 2 in reserve. I might avoid giving any one particular player both reserves unless they really really want that. The rules seem to state that the objectives are far easier to achieve if we can avoid bringing them in, so that player may never get to do anything.

Maybe it would be best for cohesion if we grouped them like so?

Legrand and Bernadotte

St. Hillaire and Davout

Vandamme and Bessiers

Lannes and Murat

OkieMurse fucked around with this message at Oct 22, 2014 around 19:55

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Also preliminary and up for discussion, but because it's best to just throw something out there and tweak rather than try to come up with something perfect first.

Okie: Legrand and Bernadotte

White: St. Hilaire and Davout

Gutter: Vandamme and Bessiers

Frank: Lannes and Murat

OkieMurse fucked around with this message at Oct 22, 2014 around 19:52

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


I don't understand why the game says its easier for the French to win if they don't bring in reinforcements.

If the French don't bring in reinforcements, allies only have to take one blue star to win. If the french DO bring reinforcements, the french only have to take one enemy star to win.

Ohhhh, unless the game is a total stalemate, and then the French win if they didn't do reinforcements?

Although I seem to read about the game usually ending on Morale loss, not a stalemate?

I'm confused on whether it's actually a good idea to hold back the reinforcements, it seems you'd want them ASAP.

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


You do want to hold them in. If you do bring in the reinforcements, you have to hold a star of each colour, not just one. As well as that, if you don't bring reinforcements in, as you said, if it is a stalemate, you win and as well if you hold a single star (of any colour).

Most wins are caused my morale loss because usually the person that is on the losing end has to make more and more desperate attacks. Defending is much easier than attacking in this game.

EDIT: Also, if you don't allow the allies to expend some of their strength and allow them to simply defend because you brought in your reinforcements, its very hard to crack them.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Oh I understand now. The victory conditions were worded a bit strangely.

frankenfreak
Feb 16, 2007

Almanya önde!
Bir başka hedef!
Sonsuz şef Löw için zafer!


RE: Corps assignments

I'm still attached to the idea of making Lannes a "switch hitter" who can either pound on a weak allied right flank or support the center depending on the situation while Bessiers and Murat take care of the defense on this flank. If we do this, I suggest we group the corps as follows (also in this order):
Vandamme & St. Hilaire - the center; its actions will dictate what other fronts do (e.g. if they manage to take pressure off Legrand or if Legrand has to dig in his heels)
Legrand & Bernadotte - an obvious combination to take care of our right flank
Lannes & Davout - the "switch hitter" acts after we see if the center needs additional support
Bessiers & Murat - the left flank, ready to lock it down as proposed by Gutter Owl if the allies make a serious push on this flank

RE: Corps allocation

I disagree with the proposed detachments. One artillery onto the Santon is a given, but the others, I have to reiterate, should go towards detaching a cavalry screen.

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


frankenfreak posted:

I disagree with the proposed detachments. One artillery onto the Santon is a given, but the others, I have to reiterate, should go towards detaching a cavalry screen.

I've come around to this. We can detach infantry to Santon and the plug to 102 on our first turn.

More thoughts after lunch.

Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


frankenfreak posted:

Legrand & Bernadotte - an obvious combination to take care of our right flank
Lannes & Davout - the "switch hitter" acts after we see if the center needs additional support

Davout is my one disagreement with your corps strategy. Neither of the reserve corps are going to be of any use to the center. The roads just won't let them approach in a reasonable amount of time.

I like the idea of one "dedicated south" reserve (Bernadotte, why not) coming through 140/147 and one "switch hitter" (Davout, sure). But Davout would need to be a northern support, coming up through the major road at 51. This relieves Lanners and maybe Murat to join the center.

With that in mind, I'm tempted to give Davout two cavalry. This gives us an emergency option for feinting into an approach--since the reservists get double commands on entering the battlefield (last paragraph, section 10), Davout could use one command to enter the battlefield as a whole, then the second command to move only the cavalry into a feint or an approach.

Gutter Owl fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2014 around 18:18

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


frankenfreak posted:

RE: Corps assignments

I'm still attached to the idea of making Lannes a "switch hitter" who can either pound on a weak allied right flank or support the center depending on the situation while Bessiers and Murat take care of the defense on this flank. If we do this, I suggest we group the corps as follows (also in this order):
Vandamme & St. Hilaire - the center; its actions will dictate what other fronts do (e.g. if they manage to take pressure off Legrand or if Legrand has to dig in his heels)
Legrand & Bernadotte - an obvious combination to take care of our right flank
Lannes & Davout - the "switch hitter" acts after we see if the center needs additional support
Bessiers & Murat - the left flank, ready to lock it down as proposed by Gutter Owl if the allies make a serious push on this flank

RE: Corps allocation

I disagree with the proposed detachments. One artillery onto the Santon is a given, but the others, I have to reiterate, should go towards detaching a cavalry screen.

We need to get players allocated to corps to get things moving.

Your proposal is as follows?
Okie: Van and St.
Gutter: Leg and Bern
Frank: Lan and Dav
White: Bess and Mur

I'm fine with this player allocation if everyone else is. Please post if this is agreeable or alternatively your 2 desired commanders.

I posted my troops assignment earlier just as a placeholder, we can rearrange things there once we have our commanders paired off.

OkieMurse
Nov 2, 2011

I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.


Also Tekopo please let us know if the allies are done with a particular phase and are waiting on us.

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


Will let you know, they are still setting up so no worries.

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Gutter Owl
Oct 21, 2010

keep yr head up, problem girl


OkieMurse posted:

We need to get players allocated to corps to get things moving.

Your proposal is as follows?
Okie: Van and St.
Gutter: Leg and Bern
Frank: Lan and Dav
White: Bess and Mur

I'm fine with this player allocation if everyone else is. Please post if this is agreeable or alternatively your 2 desired commanders.

I posted my troops assignment earlier just as a placeholder, we can rearrange things there once we have our commanders paired off.

I would rather have Lannes and Davout at my position. Legrand and Bernadotte are likely going to be under the hardest hammer in the south, and I think they'll benefit from knowing what the switch is up to. Particularly, on the turn we shift to the offensive, Davout should commit to the field before Bernadotte, because Davout can do any number of things with his assignment, which will influence what Bernadotte wants to do. (Namely, Bernadotte will need to know if Davout plans to aid the southern reinforcement, or reinforce the north flank.) And during the attack, Lannes is likely to become part of the center, meaning it again influences the actions of Legrand.

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