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School of How
Jul 6, 2013


ANIME MONSTROSITY posted:

can i just say that im still kinda mad at goons for making me laugh at bitcoins when it was 2$

if bitcoin came out in 2002 i probably would not have bought bitcoin. back in those days i spent all my time on fyad lites and irc and pretty much believed whatever those people said. i first heard about bitcoin in 2010 when i was just starting to not spend all day on irc and the internet in general. i remember everyone saying how dumb it was etc etc. i was going to buy some (when it was less than 1$), but in those days the only way to buy was through money gram, and i just for whatever reason never followed through with it.

i thought for myself and decided to start reading about bitcoin and cryptography and stuff like that. since i'm a software developer i am able to understand some of the technical stuff, but i did take me a while to finally realize this is something i want to try out. people in yospos always talk about how terrible bitcoin is and how none of the sites actually work, but my experience has been the complete opposite. i first bought like 4 btc for under $100 in early 2013 from I think coinbase. i've never tried to straight up sell btc into dollars, but if you venture outside the world of yospos people seem to have no trouble doing it.

back in 2010 all there was was mt gox, and blockchain pretty much. i made sense to say it was all fake, but these days there are literally dozens of exchanges and probably hundreds of block explorers. you people still think they all are part of some grand bitcoin scam conspiracy?

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School of How
Jul 6, 2013


infernal machines posted:

lol are you the one white knighting nicsho in the comments on his article too?

don't get me wrong, i'm sure your personal experience is more valid than the literally thousands of documented cases otherwise

lol your like those people who deny the moon landing, or that deny the holocaust happened

you deny that coinbase.com actually exists and can be used to buy/sell bitcoin

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


infernal machines posted:

let's ignore the part where you admit you've never actually tried to redeem your autisim kronars for spendable dollars, presumably opting instead for gift cards, adding another ridiculous step to the chain of attempting to extract value from waste heat

all of the stuff i'v baught has been through either gyft or via bitpay/coinbase, or maybe once or twice i've gotten something where i sent btc to the person directly.

quote:

you've got your decentralized, ungoverned, libertarian-wet-dream of a currency, and it turns out it's actually lovely to attempt to use as a currency, asset, or other store of value for a host of fundamental reasons.

once you understand how the system works and how to use your wallet app, its not that hard. not many places accept bitcoin, but i try to use it when i can

quote:

- it doesn't scale, the transaction volume of ~3 transactions per second is straining the system as it is and the record of every transaction that's fundamental to the system operating is now approaching 26gb

the 1mb block limit will have to be raised at some point in time. hard forkes in the blockchain have happened before, it probably won't be a big deal. at any rate, when the 1mb limit is reached, all that will happen is that the first confirmation will take longer unless you have a fee.

quote:

- the dozens of exchanges you point to are busy getting robbed and soaking their users for all their coin because it turns out bitcoin only works if you distrust literally everyone. it is a trustless system and it's working about as well as you'd expect

one exchange getting hacked is not every single exchange getting hacked. it is true that gox was terrible (maybe even fraudulent), but that doesn't mean that every sngle exchange is fraudulent. at any rate, for every 1 exchange that gets caught up in fraud, another 3 exchanges pop up. you think all of those exchanges are fraudulent? thats like saying every single picture/viseo of the moon capsule has been faked by nasa.

quote:

- despite being a trustless system about half the idiots using it are trying to fast forward their way through roughly a millennia of monetary policy to make it in some way actually usable, while the other half rail against them arguing that it's a just world and anyone who gets robbed deserved to be

i'm not quite sure what you're saying here but the bitcoin community is part smart people, part idiots. bitcoin is a hard concept to understand. lots of people are going to jump in with out having a clue. there werea lot fo mindless people who were beatles fans, that doesn't make the beatles suck.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Nessus posted:

do you immediately rebuy to make sure your store of bitcoin remains the same?

nope, i bought some back when it was 600, then again at 450, so now i'm only buying back when either I have no bitcoin left (not likely since i dont really spend it much) or the price starts going up again.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


indigi posted:

wrong, cause most of the asic miners are limited to hashing 1mb blocks, so none of them will ever under any circumstances follow the fork, and the frisbee will be firmly entrenched on the roof. it's why it hasn't been changed already - most blocks don't get near 1mb, so raising that limit would have no practical effect for a while beyond making all the specialized mining hardware instantly obsolete

i don't know man, asic hardware becomes obsolete very quickly anyways. if gavin blesses a release that raises the block limit, the asic manufacturers have no choice but to make new hardware, supporting the new 10mb limit. what makes you think miners are not going to get these new machines?


quote:

even if that weren't true, though, once transaction volumes are high enough miners would obviously enforce an artificial block size in order to make more money off of fees. especially once the reward halves next year or whenever.

if its so obviously going to happen, then why hasn't it happened yet? furthermore, why hasn't the network been hacked to its knees yet? if the protocol is supposed to be so lovely, why can the sony hackers also take down bitcoin? shouldn't bitcoin be an easier target than a multinational corporation?

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Nessus posted:

so what's the point of all this then

like if you'd bought a couple hundred back when they were enthusiast toys or something, and now your $50 could turn into a bonanza of free electronics, congratulations for benefiting from the stupidity of crowds

but why would you bother with all of this? I mean, I guess if you're buying drugs. can you still buy drugs with bitcoins?

because i only bought what i could afford to lose.

i have no reason to sell my bitcoin.

maybe if i need 10K for a heart transplant, i'll have to sell some bitcoin.

which reminds me!!!! last lear right before April 20, 2013, i had to sell some bitcoins into dollars so that I could pay my taxes. the government was going to charge me an extra $500 to accept my taxes via credit card, so I was forced to pay my taxes with a check. but i had also just paid off my credit card (which had a lot on it because i had to get a bunch of car repairs). basically i had to either sell some stocks or sell some bitcoin in order to have enough USD in my bank account to clear the tax check. this is basic normal people stuff with moving money between accounts and such. the point is that i really have sold bitcoin, and i did it with coinbase. i think i sold 5K or so.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


DNova posted:

because the devs say ok 10mb blocks are ok, but nobody of consequence owns a miner capable of dealing with them, so there's a fork and it's back to 1mb. the asic makers would have to pre-emptively design new hardware, AND the big miners would have to BUY it, in order for the changeover to work without a fork keeping it at 1mb. I'm not sure there's another way to make it work.

realistically, any change that would result in a hard fork would have to be done with the miners and asic manufacturers working together.

basically all the arguments against bitcoin are theoretical. all evidence of bitcoin's success are based on actual reality.

you can actually use bitcoin right now. i'm not saying theres some theory that says bitcoin should work. i'm saying its a system that exists right now that you can use right now. if you believe that then i guess that makes you a bitcoiner.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Nessus posted:

do you think it is in fact going to the moon

and if so how much money have you sunk into the drat thing

buying one or two a couple of years ago would have a certain venture capital logic if you had lots of money to burn

eventually it will

it probably won't happen for another year or maybe more. in the past i've said i think the next bubble will happen summer 2014, but now I think it'll happen probably right after the next US presidential election.

i originally bought in for like $100, then bought in a few more times. All in all i think i'm pretty much even in terms of what i've put in and what i've taken out. more importantly, im in a position where i don't have to worry about the price going to zero. i feel like what i have is enough for me to retire if the price really does "go to the moon". i put money into bitcoin in the same way someone puts money into their IRA or 401K.

buying bitcoin now is a better idea that buying it two years ago. more places accept it, the network is stronger, more press has been said about it, etc etc.

the thing is, usually if something really sucks, people don't talk about it. why does it seem like people keep talking about bitcoin more and more and more?

if it sucks so much, why don't people just stop talking about it? why doesn't yospos stop talking about it?

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


theflyingorc posted:

Also, the whole thing folds when Bitpay and coinbase crash from their nonsense business model.

call me when that hapens

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


surebet posted:

it is in direct conflict to the economic well being of pool operators to vet an upgrade to 10mb

please address my statement using the word sidechains

sidechains are retarded

its a prefect example of bloat, and i hope it never gets added

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


bitcoin deniers come in two forms:

1. people that straight up believe bitcoin doesn't exist. basically like moon landing deniers
2. people who believe bitcoin exists, but think its complete collapse is imminent because they can think up some theoretical situation that proves bitcoin will not work

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


theflyingorc posted:

I do not think its collapse is imminent. Bitpay, yes. (18 months tops without additional funding)

It will never be awesome however and will slowly fade over the coming decades.

i just bought something 2 days ago using bitpay

you all think coinbase and bitpay are scams because you don't know how they work.

if there are a bunch of people willing to trade bitcoin for dollars

and there are also people willing to accept dollars for bitcoin

then you have a situation where bitpay and coinbase can exist.

all coinbase and bitpay do is sit in the middle.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


theflyingorc posted:

1 million of processing a day with a 1% fee isn't enough money to run a company with a decent number of employees, dumbass

But go ahead, tell me what I don't understand about bitpay. I'd love to know

i've used bitpay, you obviously haven't

Wells posted:

phrasing the argument against bitcoin as "bitcoin will not work" is incorrect, because that is based on the premise that people arguing against bitcoin think it actually works now

thats my point exactly, people here actually deny that bitcoin actually exists

much like how some people think the moon landing never happened.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Nintendo Kid posted:

show me the transaction

here is a screenshot of my chase bank transactions:

http://imgur.com/aJlDCjW

thats when i sold 5K usd worth of btc

that screenshot proves that coinbase is not a scam

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


theflyingorc posted:

And? I am not arguing that they're a scam, I'm arguing that they're a tech startup without a sustainable business model, those are very, very common.

Also, why did you use Bitcoins to buy things instead of fiat, what benefit did you receive?

i buy most things with dollars, i only spend bitcoin if its an option, i don't go out of my way to spend btc unless the btc price is way up and i want to offload some.

2 days ago i bought a casacius coin. bitpay was an option so i thought what the hell... i'd rather just reach over, grab my phone, make the transaction, rather than reach over the other direction to grab my card and type the numbers into my computer. once you have a bitcoin wallet set up its not any more difficult to use than credit cards. the hard part is learning all the terminology (blockchain, transaction, outputs, etc), and getting your bank account attached to an exchange.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


r/rbitcoin has basically become yospos

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/com...uld_be_selling/

most of the replies read like they came directly out of this thread

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Aleksei Vasiliev posted:

he won the entirety of the first auction of ~30k coins that were worth ~$640 each at the time. since he won all of them he probably was buying at near-market price (or above market)

so he's lost like $10m at least

only on paper, he doesn't really lose anything until he sells his coin for usd

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


vOv posted:

why would the electricity cost per transaction be constant, that makes no sense whatsoever. the size of the thing being hashed repeatedly is independent of the number of transactions.

the "cost per transaction" metric is the worst bitcoin metric ever. it confuses people into thinking the mining economy and the transaction economy are somehow related.

it doesn't matter how much energy is being used by the miners, as long as there is enough hash power to keep the network going, the transaction economy will still function.

imagine a fast food restaurant. there are people at the register taking orders, and people in the back making the burgers. there can be 100 people in the back making burgers, but that is not going to have any effect on ho many sales they get at the register. as long as there are enough people making burgers to fill orders, the restaurant will operate. bitcoin is currently in a situation where there are a million volunteer burger makers which makes it seem like its very inefficient, but its wrong to imply that all those extra burger makers are necessary.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


theflyingorc posted:

if a business was set up this way, it would not be unreasonable to call them stupid

also it doesn't matter if it's necessary, the protocol's design CAUSED those burger makers to exist, and they do exist, so "they don't have to exist" is a pointless thing to discuss

a business model that attracts large amount of volunteer workers who pay for their own supplies? how is that stupid?

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


PleasureKevin posted:

so if we had just like one person mining, what would happen to the transaction time?

isn't the difficulty so high that it would take literally forever to do a transaction?

back in 2009 there was only one person mining, satoshi.

the network was designed to still work even as hashrate increases and decreases across orders of magnitude.

the weakness is that if hashrate raises or falls too sharply, there could be a "frisbee on the roof" situation

i honestly think most miners mine bitcoin becsause they like bitcoin

some people think miners only do it for the profit, and as soon as the profit goes away they will shut their machines down

even if the price decline continues, hashrate is unlikely to drop much

maybe if someone hashed the blockchain and found a bug that would apear to never be fixed, then i can see people turning off their miners in mass...

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


infernal machines posted:

a business model that encourages wasting energy and resources on a spectacular scale for no practical return? how is that stupid?

there is a practical return, the bitcoin network

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


theflyingexecutive posted:

each bitcoin transaction releases one quarter to one half ton of co2 into the atmosphere

thats like saying every mile of road causes XXX CO2 emissions.

if i divide the number of miles of road that exists in the world, and divide it by the amount of CO2 being emitted by cars, you can get C02 emitted per mile of road

its a worthless metric that says nothing

and so is "cost per transaction" and "C02 emitted per transaction"

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Krinkle posted:

Roads go places. Bitcoin miners do the computer equivalent of digging a goddamn ditch and filling it in again a billion times in a meaningless race to be the first to throw a meaningless number at an arbitrary wall and have it stick. Every goddamn miner past the first one is wasting electricity and wholly unnecessary and the total utility you get out of it, the transactions, should absolutely be weighed against the staggering waste of time and resources and the pollution they cause and ahahahhaha nevermind you think arguing with bitcoin is like denying the holocaust shine on you crazy diamond.

the purpose of the miners is to secure the network. since the network hasn't been hacked in the past 5 years, we can argue it works pretty well.

right now we are in a "mining bubble". bitcoin is still very new and exciting. eventually this will wear off, and the hash rate will drop down to a more reasonable value

for instance, my grandkids are not likely to be as enthusiastic about mining bitcoin as some people in my generation. i can see bitcoin becoming an extremely boring thing in the next 50 years. at some point people will have to beg people to mine the network, all though who knows.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


theflyingorc posted:

Do you seriously not understand how absolutely stupid this is to say?

its not the best analogy because bitcoin is not a business the way a fast food restraunt is.

people mine bitcoin because they want to

no one is forcing them to

they are willing to spend their own money to help keep their hobby going

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Gum posted:

what about the time someone exploited a vulnerability in the network to give himself billions of bitcoins

someone fixed it

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


infernal machines posted:

hacking the network is not the high-water mark security wise. the miners are meant to keep the distributed system in chek by ensuring that no one controls 51% of the hashing power. thanks to the mining arms race pushing everything but mining pools out of the race it has been a spectacular failure in this regard. all those KW of energy are still being pointlessly burned AND the hashing power is consolidated within a few relatively small groups.

yet another case where bitcoin is a failure in practice.

why do you keep saying waste? securing the network is not waste. the only way the network can hold billions of dollars of value is to be secure.

and don't get me started on mining centralization. mining pools does not equal mining centralization.

with mining pools the only think that is centralized is the part that makes block, the actual hash power is not centralized.

if a pool operator goes rogue and starts loving up the network, people who control the hash power will leave that poll and go onto another pool.

when ghash.io announced they weren't going to limit themselvs to 50% a bunch of peopl left in a hussy, which is why their share is like 20% now. as soon as any one pool gets close to 50% the community causes a shitstorm, and people all migrate to another pool.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


theflyingexecutive posted:

hey dnh what is the utility of bitcoin? what among its properties enable it to be worth real money?

thats a hard one to answer without getting philosophical

i think bitcoin is the closest system ever created that resembles the idealized notion of money

the whole purpose of money in the first place is to maintain fairness between members of society

the current system is closed source, bitcoin is open source

open source = fair

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Weatherman posted:

it makes me a bit sad, way down in my left nut, how my wife and i live a very energy-efficient lifestyle -- led bulbs everywhere, not using the heater or air conditioner except when it's under 10 or over 32 inside, walking or usin public transport to get everywhere, recycling the gently caress out of things, etc etc etc, and yet there are morons and spergs everywhere (im looking at you dnh) that are balls-to-the-wall gung-ho about burning an entire nuclear plant's output of electricity in their stupid internet pogs game. really makes the effort feel worthwhile.

in short, gently caress this gay earth

what about the people who waste electricity playing world of warcraft? does that make you mad too?

or all the electricity wasted on posting in yospos

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Mido posted:

what qualifies a bitcoiner to hold this belief. why are libertarians so adamant that their opinions are complete while they know full well that they would be loving steamrolled by a studied economist for their lazy thoughts

i'll believe bitcoin will die when you actually can't use the network any more. until then, the network functioning is all the proof i need to be convinced that bitcoin is here to stay

it doesn't matter how many economics degrees you have, saying bitcoin is going to fail doesn't make it fail.

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


yospos defending mark karpeles? truly a sign of capitulation

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


MeLKoR posted:

The more I read about this poo poo the less I understand. How can he "give the money back", if he doesn't have the password in what way was the wallet "stolen"? Can't the rightful owner access his funds at any time he wants simply using his password? Isn't all this poo poo supposed to in the blockchain? If not, if these are unique physical files then how did 3 different people (or the OP for that matter) get their hands on it?

You are correct. The original owner most likely still has access to his bitcoins. Someone else stole the wallet files and tried to get the password cracked by a bitcoin wallet cracker service. The cracker realized that three different people tied to get the wallet cracked, so the cracker posted that screenshot to r/bitcoin so the rightful owner can be aware that his wallet has been leaked. Most likely the rightful owner has a virus which is how the wallet got out. The virus didn't get the password, hence the need for a cracker.

Also, if you really want to learn about bitcoin, your first order of business is to stop reading yospos, or at the very least don't listen to anything anyone posts here.

School of How fucked around with this message at Mar 9, 2015 around 16:30

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


i am mad mad mad about internet payment systems

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


As a Millennial I posted:

how much is bitcoin

265

it started the month at like 220, and has been slowly creeping up all month

School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Peter Todd is the most YOSPOS bitcoin developer there is. literally everything he says is contrarian to common sense. hes the main voice behind the push to keep the blocksize limit at 1MB

theres a podcast of him and debating the blocksize issue with gavin. his voice sounds as emotionless and monotoned as you'd expect.

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School of How
Jul 6, 2013


Magrov posted:

bitcoin can totally have more than 2 tps. just not on every second.

the only reason why people say bitcoin is limited to 2 tps is because of the existence of a blocksize limit in the first place. if that limit weren't there the system would be unlimited. actually not unlimited, but rather limited by practical constraints (bandwidth/cpu/memory) rather than by an artificial limit.

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