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PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016





Grapplejack posted:

oh my god I just lost the most incredible lost run on my way up to the beast by not paying attention and walking into a devil beggar

lmao I literally just did this today as well

the next run I decided to send it on the first floor and bought chaos. it uh.... it paid off big time

psy fly, dead cat, brimstone, incubus, infestation and then.... mother loving godhead

i still died four times

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Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Irony Be My Shield posted:

I think Devil Rooms are in a decent place. It's not like old Isaac where you'd often take a useless devil deal just to make sure you can trigger The Polaroid but there's a lot of decent items that are situationally worth picking up, and a couple of run winners that it's worth looking for. I don't think skipping the first devil room is worth it (assuming a non-Mega Satan path) unless there's some reason you're very unlikely to take any deal.

Yeah the angel room guarantee is really nice for Mega Satan runs, but I don't think I'll really take advantage of that unless I really don't need that first Devil Deal, or taking a devil deal is suicidal. (Such as having no HP to pay for them.) And as amazing as Angel Rooms are right now, I've still had quite a few runs where they offered worthless crap, so risking that isn't really worth it to me on runs where I'm struggling to gain power. For all those runs I got Sacred Heart and Godhead, I've also had runs where they offered the godawful Breath of Life and nothing else.

Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't
even see the code. All I see
is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...




Just hit me that tainted lazarus has basically no upside aside from technically having more health for bosses if you go in with a fully charged flip. Every other alt character with a downside has some sort of upside to it. Regular Jacob and Esau at least exist at the same time and thus can output more damage. Tainted Lazarus is just "gently caress you, play two characters who only get half as much poo poo (usually)" and the game does basically nothing to even remotely compensate for this. Also Flip takes six whole rooms to charge, jesus

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



There any reason why this isn't in the OP? https://bindingofisaacrebirth.fandom.com/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac:_Rebirth_Wiki

I've found it pretty helpful when trying to figure out all the various weird mechanics.

Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't
even see the code. All I see
is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...




TOOT BOOT posted:

There any reason why this isn't in the OP? https://bindingofisaacrebirth.fandom.com/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac:_Rebirth_Wiki

I've found it pretty helpful when trying to figure out all the various weird mechanics.

I thought I added it when I updated the OP the other day, but I guess I didn't! Oops! It's there now.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Color Printer posted:

Just hit me that tainted lazarus has basically no upside aside from technically having more health for bosses if you go in with a fully charged flip. Every other alt character with a downside has some sort of upside to it. Regular Jacob and Esau at least exist at the same time and thus can output more damage. Tainted Lazarus is just "gently caress you, play two characters who only get half as much poo poo (usually)" and the game does basically nothing to even remotely compensate for this. Also Flip takes six whole rooms to charge, jesus

Tainted Lazarus is set to get buffs, as he was stated to be literally unfinished.

As cool as some of the new content is, yeah it was basically cut short in a lot of places before being released. Such as Birthright doing literally nothing for several characters, and the fact that certain items are literally unobtainable, like the Tainted Character exclusive gimmick items. I know Ed said they're not doing Booster packs, but I really do hope the game gets at least touched up like Afterbirth+ did by the end of its lifespan. Goddamn that pack's launch was really bad. At least Repentance had a better launch than AB and AB+?

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



It feels 80% done instead of 40% done, so yeah.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Black August posted:

It feels 80% done instead of 40% done, so yeah.

I still remember the dark times of empty item rooms from AB+. Also portals that never stopped summoning, and those stone statues that were completely relentless. And that the mod tools at launch were laughably limited.

Also small boss rooms was one of the worst ideas AB introduced and I'm glad Repentance finally got rid of those and kicked the portals to certain levels.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



it was dumb abusive kaizo pukeshit

Super No Vacancy
Jul 26, 2012

yahallo


god i just had such a sick tainted jacob run. got the bethany book on the first floor and then a library on the second floor to get bookworm and psychic shot. also had a book of secret wisps that opened a trapdoor in the ground when it got popped, where i got the death scythe. cleared hush and delirium on hard but also had a key ready for mega satan i was like nooo just let me kill every boss

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Also some of these buffs to lower tier items really threw me for a loop. I was surprised to see how many spiders box of spiders summons now, and Bob's Rotten Head is an earlygame steamroller and boss killer now.

Tainted Eve took a little while to get used to so I would stop needlessly killing myself, but wow eat your heart out Lilith.

Saigyouji
Aug 26, 2011

Friends 'ave fun together.


Araxxor posted:

Also small boss rooms was one of the worst ideas AB introduced and I'm glad Repentance finally got rid of those and kicked the portals to certain levels.

Speaking of this, today I made the unpleasant discovery that the Chest can spawn Mega Maw in a closet.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



the bomb buff turned Mr. Boom into an instant boss-killer

Pixeltendo
Mar 2, 2012




Color Printer posted:

Just hit me that tainted lazarus has basically no upside aside from technically having more health for bosses if you go in with a fully charged flip. Every other alt character with a downside has some sort of upside to it. Regular Jacob and Esau at least exist at the same time and thus can output more damage. Tainted Lazarus is just "gently caress you, play two characters who only get half as much poo poo (usually)" and the game does basically nothing to even remotely compensate for this. Also Flip takes six whole rooms to charge, jesus
My idea is both characters will share the same stat gains but not the passive effects or active items.

Both characters benefit from the pentagram but only one character could benefit from technology for example.

Saigyouji
Aug 26, 2011

Friends 'ave fun together.


The devs have been talking about changing Tainted Lazarus in the next non-bugfix update. The idea I've seen thrown around is that every time you pick up an item, the other character also gets an item from the same pool.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





Grapplejack posted:

lmao oh your reward for beating mother as the lost is....... a really terrible item.....

*looks up this item*
what the hell are you talking about thatís insanely good

Psychedelicatessen
Feb 17, 2012


Araxxor posted:

If anything the really terrible payout is beating Mega Satan with Tainted Lost. I have no idea what the hell the benefits from that one could possibly be. Save that one for last if you can. Last thing you need is a detriment ruining a potential Tainted Lost or other challenge character run.

You can get grey chests behind rocks/spikes/pits without touching them. The little ghost will also continue acting as normal, so if you have no bombs in a room of pots, buckets or mushrooms, you can break them that way.

They're not too bad, once you figure out the difference between them and a normal grey chest.

il_cornuto
Oct 10, 2004



Haven't seen many people talking about Tainted Judas but he's super fun.

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.



il_cornuto posted:

Haven't seen many people talking about Tainted Judas but he's super fun.

Sharkitten
Jan 14, 2010



Wow I just beat Hush for the first time

I almost like his fight but the parts with the purple homing touhou tears is a bit much, and I'm not sure if there's any strategy there besides luck/git gud

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Holy poo poo they actually added in holy brimstone. What an amazing item. Revelation really helped my run, but the fixed charge time definitely makes it more akin to Maw of the Void (another amazing item) instead of the batshit insane stuff you could do with pre-nerf Brim. And even then current Brim synergizes more easily with stuff. Since Revelation really only scales with damage instead of both damage and tears.

Sharkitten posted:

Wow I just beat Hush for the first time

I almost like his fight but the parts with the purple homing touhou tears is a bit much, and I'm not sure if there's any strategy there besides luck/git gud

There's a huge safespot somewhere in the sine waves of bullets. Though now I hear there's one somewhere close to his head, but I don't remember where that is. That being said the last part of the fight has his cooldown be drastically lowered between attacks which was added in Repentance for some reason, basically making the last part luck based yeah. The fight's supposed to have a bit more leeway at the end.

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.



the continuum shots become arenít too bad when you only have to deal with one barrage but when you have multiple ones overlapping the only thing you can do is pray.

also learned what wheel of fortune? does today the hard way during a very good run that became a very not good run

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Previously you could literally just stand still during that attack and it wouldn't hit you. Not sure how it works now.

Beasteh
Feb 12, 2012

I'M QUESTIONING MY EXISTENCE AND THIS IDIOT JUST WANTS TO PEE OFF A WALL



Taking a crack at these challenges and holy poo poo some of them are aggravating

Like Solar System you're telling me I need to get through the womb and kill moms heart with this jank rear end build?

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Color Printer posted:

Just hit me that tainted lazarus has basically no upside aside from technically having more health for bosses if you go in with a fully charged flip. Every other alt character with a downside has some sort of upside to it. Regular Jacob and Esau at least exist at the same time and thus can output more damage. Tainted Lazarus is just "gently caress you, play two characters who only get half as much poo poo (usually)" and the game does basically nothing to even remotely compensate for this. Also Flip takes six whole rooms to charge, jesus
This is what I've been saying!!!! It's wild to me people have bothered full clearing this guy but I guess you can always just highroll super hard.

The character changes I'd like to see are:
1.) Give J+E a key at the start
2.) Some kind of buff to Tainted Lazarus
3.) Increase Esau's damage as you go down floors with Tainted Jacob, he starts getting outscaled by enemies during Depths
4.) Randomize Tainted Cain recipes every run (using quality bucketing)

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



It's annoying having to manage the swap but can't you do all the boss/challenge room battles on the same character, meaning your other character only has to be strong enough to clear regular rooms? Doesn't seem as bad as the Jacobs to me.

e: you also have the upside of more max health if you flip when you're low

Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 13:55 on May 3, 2021

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007



il_cornuto posted:

Haven't seen many people talking about Tainted Judas but he's super fun.

Yeah he rules. You're completely invulnerable while you use dark arts btw so if you have, say, kamikaze...

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Apparently repentance buffed Kamikaze from 40 damage to 180 damage. Makes the blue bomber challenge pretty entertaining...

Qylvaran
Mar 28, 2010


I got Kamikaze on my first Tainted Forgotten run. The Mother fight was over in less than a minute.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016





Qylvaran posted:

I got Kamikaze on my first Tainted Forgotten run. The Mother fight was over in less than a minute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anBuTVxgE40

SkeletonHero
Sep 7, 2010

Skeleton War 2020


I want a mod that changes the graphic for Dark Arts into a katana.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Interesting fact: if you're invincible with Gnawed Leaf and Mother does her up/down charging attack she can actually get stuck against you. Would've lost that run if I didn't have an invincibility effect to escape from the pin.

The Moon Monster
Dec 30, 2005
THIS CUSTOM TITLE WILL COME IN HANDY WHILE LURKING


Irony Be My Shield posted:

Previously you could literally just stand still during that attack and it wouldn't hit you. Not sure how it works now.

You can still do that for one wave of transcendence tears. They basically come out in three streams and if you stand right in front of the boss between two of the streams they'll just pass right by you... but they used to have a lot of height to them when they first appeared so you could run under them to get in that spot but now they'll hit you immediately so getting in the spot is a lot harder. He's also now way more likely to spam several attacks at once which of course invalidates the whole stand in one spot strategy anyway. It sucks that they couldn't find time to fix Delirium but they were able make Hush worse.

ArfJason
Sep 5, 2011


one of my fastest and easiest delirium kills

playing tainted bethany, my early items were the good poo poo; capricorn, sinus infection, lost contact, mitre, etc. Kicked Mega satan's rear end. Had maxed out red heart charges and found both red key and spindown dice in the void. Found red devil room, red room planetarium, red room shop, top secret room, and spundown into tech zero, succubus, deaths touch, purity, lusty blood. one of the items was blood puppy, which after three spindowns turned into rock bottom, so i cleared the floor, and gunned for delirium. Spammed the lemegeton and all of them insanely good stat ups, and no matter how many of them i lost, rock bottom kept their stats intact.

municipal shrimp
Mar 30, 2011


Does dogma have a tell in his first form when he shoots off his homing brimstone? They seemingly shoot our randomly sheet the initial beam. I just lost a promising cain run because he wouldn't stop spamming that move and i have no idea how to avoid anything after the first blast.

ArfJason
Sep 5, 2011


municipal shrimp posted:

Does dogma have a tell in his first form when he shoots off his homing brimstone? They seemingly shoot our randomly sheet the initial beam. I just lost a promising cain run because he wouldn't stop spamming that move and i have no idea how to avoid anything after the first blast.

he opens his mouth puffs his cheeks and starts vibrating for a bit. you wanna stick to a single diagonal from dogma, and slowly slalom back and forth on that diagonal when the brim lasers starts closing in on you, which will cuase it to flip to the other cardinal direction

goferchan
Feb 8, 2004



No Wave posted:

4.) Randomize Tainted Cain recipes every run (using quality bucketing)

People are going to hate you for this but I think you're right and that it has a good chance of happening. As long as they keep the quality and item pool bucketing (so you can have a pretty good idea that picking up more eternal hearts make you more likely to get an angel room item or whatever) I would find him way more enjoyable. I don't like feeling like I'm gimping myself by playing without a spreadsheet pulled up in the other window

goferchan
Feb 8, 2004



Black August posted:

I wouldn't mind there being purified versions of each character, alts that have interestingly-broken mechanics.

Sort of related, it would be flavorful and cool if Birthright had an Eden's Blessing style effect where it also applied to the next character you started a run with. Once it's fully implemented.

ArfJason
Sep 5, 2011


goferchan posted:

Sort of related, it would be flavorful and cool if Birthright had an Eden's Blessing style effect where it also applied to the next character you started a run with. Once it's fully implemented.

depending on which character you got it as, and which character you play next, you get a different effect. Reject simplicty, embrace combinatorics, shoot for 34^2 effects each with associated completion marks

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Evil Eagle
Nov 5, 2009



ArfJason posted:

one of my fastest and easiest delirium kills

playing tainted bethany, my early items were the good poo poo; capricorn, sinus infection, lost contact, mitre, etc. Kicked Mega satan's rear end. Had maxed out red heart charges and found both red key and spindown dice in the void. Found red devil room, red room planetarium, red room shop, top secret room, and spundown into tech zero, succubus, deaths touch, purity, lusty blood. one of the items was blood puppy, which after three spindowns turned into rock bottom, so i cleared the floor, and gunned for delirium. Spammed the lemegeton and all of them insanely good stat ups, and no matter how many of them i lost, rock bottom kept their stats intact.



badass, I can't wait to finally land a rock bottom at some point. seems so drat good

in shittier item news libra fuckin sucks. here's stats after getting a sacred heart then stats after picking up a curse of the blind libra in the chest

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