Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


watho posted:

yeah repentance loving owns. AB+ absolutely killed all my drive to play the game but repentance completely reignited the flame

Same. AB+'s launch turning into BOI: Kaizo edition completely turned me off the game. And seeing the Delirium boss fight in action further turned me off. What an awful boss fight, I really hope it gets reworked to something good after the Void update comes out. I absolutely do not regret jumping off and coming back now. It feels good to have fun with Isaac again.

welcome posted:

I went back to see what marks I still had to finish on Xbox and there's still portals everywhere, Repentance is great.

That being said I did come back to finish up AB+ before getting Repentance, and they did clean up quite a bit. The portals are significantly weaker than they used to be, automatically despawning after summoning a few enemies. I still rejoice at Repentance shunting them to Mausoleum and Void. They were so out of place. The process to smooth everything out till Booster Pack 5 seems like it was a pretty long one.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.



i think a delirium rework is on the horizon

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



I don't think Delirium is particularly better or worse than the new bosses.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Irony Be My Shield posted:

I don't think Delirium is particularly better or worse than the new bosses.
lol.... I'm amazed anyone could have this opinion. I actually get stunned when I face delirium, like how is this piece of garbage in such an otherwise good game. And you have to suffer through it for minutes at a time every time. Getting telefragged repeatedly is an average delirium fight and unfair hits like that happen maybe once per run otherwise.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 22:49 on May 4, 2021

Ryuga Death
May 14, 2008

There's gotta be one more bell to crack


Fun Shoe

I'm surprised by how tolerable I find Tainted Forgotten, would've figured its gimmick would be really annoying to deal with. Honestly, the character I've played and really dread playing is Tainted Cain, I only cheesed a couple of completion marks cause I found having to pay attention to recipes and stuff really dull.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


No Wave posted:

lol.... I'm amazed anyone could have this opinion. I actually get stunned when I face delirium, like how is this piece of garbage in such an otherwise good game. And you have to suffer through it for minutes at a time every time. Getting telefragged repeatedly is an average delirium fight and unfair hits like that happen maybe once per run otherwise.

For most characters at least, you can face tank it but the telefragging is pretty annoying.

But when I was doing Lost and pre-repentance Keeper runs for Delirium, I utterly loathed the boss. There's so much unavoidable damage due to the telefragging. I at least had a money generator as Keeper so I could survive as long as I picked up a coin in time, but for the Lost I ate through all of my Dead Cat lives just to kill the thing. Sometimes a fight went well, then several instances of telefragging right at the end. Hell in one of my wasted Dead Cat lives, I died right as the boss did, but it had to finish its death animation to count and welp.

At least most of the Tainted characters had their currently non-functional unlocks shunted off to Delirium, so you can put off doing that boss unless you really want Death Certificate right this instant.

Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't
even see the code. All I see
is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...




I learned today Daddy Long Legs from Delirious still kind of targets you, but while he can't hurt you, he can destroy Lemegeton wisps. Or something can, at any rate; I had like three Delirious bosses summoned on the Hush fight and afterwards I was still getting hit by something and hearing the "wisps getting hit" noise and I'm pretty sure they were getting snuffed out.

EDIT: also this Delirium talk is funny considering I got my second Delirium kill today with Tainted Bethany and I just kinda rolled over him somehow. But no, Delirium sucks every other time I fought him, I hate him

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





Irony Be My Shield posted:

I don't think Delirium is particularly better or worse than the new bosses.


Delirium sucks.

Sharkitten
Jan 14, 2010



I also agree Isaac is once again one of my favorite games as of Repentance, but I don't expect Ed to actually iron out the last few major issues most people have left with it, so hopefully some community mod comes around and fixes everything

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007

YAP YAP YAP


Black August posted:

Esau Jr is such a stupid item because it's so much better mechanically than Jacob, Tainted Jacob, or Tainted Lazarus.

I very much approve of Tainted Jacob conceptually because the Biblical Jacob was such a lovely dick that he deserves Esau's wrath.

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010



Fun Shoe

Sharkitten posted:

I also agree Isaac is once again one of my favorite games as of Repentance, but I don't expect Ed to actually iron out the last few major issues most people have left with it, so hopefully some community mod comes around and fixes everything

Luckily he's working with Kilburn now, who will.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Yeah this wasn't speculative, they actually said a Hush and Delirium rework is in the works. Void is also possibly getting a visual makeover to make it seem less slapdash. There was some concept art posted of that.

I had an amazing Bethany run where I managed to find Epic Fetus in a secret room, and later Revelation. Not really a great combo at all given you have to constantly move the cursor around to charge up the holy brimstone. Then I found Marked. Not only did it just let me camp the cursor on an enemy, it auto-charges Revelation and fires that beam in the direction you're facing. What was previously a not so great combo became game winning right there! (VDJ8-APDS)

Oh and the change to Marked to let you stop firing by pressing the drop key is such a good one. Then I found Maw of the Void later and it was just gg. (I've seen people claim that item is poo poo now and they are out of their loving minds.) Letting me focus on purely dodging was really helpful in learning how to deal with the ultra harbingers and the beast.

Incidentally, Broken Padlock can break the strange door in Depths II. If you intend on doing the Home path, definitely take any alternative ways to open the door if you can, cause it eats your Polaroid/Negative if you open it the normal way.

I actually really like that they gave the Negative a damage buff. Definitely helps out a lot in certain alternative runs, and gives the characters who can't benefit from the Polaroid easily or ever a nice alternative option.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 02:26 on May 5, 2021

Mr. Locke
Jul 28, 2010


As much as folks complain about Delirium, I still hate Hush much, much more. If nothing else, you usually take Del after the Chest/Dark Room so you get one last chance to supercharge for it. Hush comes right after Mom's Heart and is a giant loving slog almost regardless of build- take you free fight for the first some 4000 HP with copious amounts of boss armor, then deal with the last 2000 while hoping that mechanics don't dance into an unavoidable mess. Glad to hear both are getting updates I might pause trying to force clears on the Tainteds until that update hits and just enjoy playing Isaac as it comes.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Mr. Locke posted:

As much as folks complain about Delirium, I still hate Hush much, much more. If nothing else, you usually take Del after the Chest/Dark Room so you get one last chance to supercharge for it. Hush comes right after Mom's Heart and is a giant loving slog almost regardless of build- take you free fight for the first some 4000 HP with copious amounts of boss armor, then deal with the last 2000 while hoping that mechanics don't dance into an unavoidable mess. Glad to hear both are getting updates I might pause trying to force clears on the Tainteds until that update hits and just enjoy playing Isaac as it comes.

There's a bunch of tainted unlocks that don't even do anything that's tied to Delirium clears. And some Tainteds are literally unfinished, so yeah I'd say waiting to do those after later updates touches those up is a good move.

It might be worth doing Delirium as Tainted Isaac though, as Spindown Dice is an incredibly powerful item to have.

Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't
even see the code. All I see
is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...




*proceeds to write "i will stop being greedy on early floors with eve" on a blackboard several times like i'm bart loving simpson*

it is loving unreal the good runs i throw away by playing like an absolute loving moron with this character

Bloody Pom
Jun 5, 2011




I was hoping that I could use Spindown Dice to cheese a Holy Mantle on Tainted Lost, but it turns out the next item in the list after it is also prohibited from spawning for them

e: Re: above, Birthright is an absolute game-winner for Eve. It permanently activates WoB and Dead Bird.

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007



There are a couple quality 1 items that are like, real fuckin' good and it's a goddamned shame tainted lost can't use them. rotten tomato is incredibly loving powerful and he's banned from it

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Tainted Lost isn't banned from low quality items. They just have a 20% chance of being rerolled into something else. The actual banned items are ones on his blacklist, and Rotten Tomato isn't on there.

sparksbloom
Apr 30, 2006


Had an insane Tainted Maggie run with Spin to Win and Black Powder, tried to do Delirium, and got Curse of the Unknown on the Void and choked. Very frustrating!

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


What the hell is Psy Fly!? Did a Void Run with Tainted Isaac, and this thing completely neutralized Hush. It also made most of Delirium a joke. Unfortunately, not even it could do anything about the mass telefragging and the ridiculous speed. Went from 11 hearts to 1 in that last phase, but I managed to get the Spindown Dice unlock at least.

Also holy gently caress Hush is actually an awful fight in his last phase. I have no idea why they speed up its attack rotation like that, this new version is practically undodgeable without good defensive items.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 05:10 on May 5, 2021

Ryuga Death
May 14, 2008

There's gotta be one more bell to crack


Fun Shoe

Tainted Eve in Greedier Mode is really difficult at the start but once you get past that, she can really just steamroll the rest of the fight.

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010



Fun Shoe

Mr. Locke posted:

As much as folks complain about Delirium, I still hate Hush much, much more. If nothing else, you usually take Del after the Chest/Dark Room so you get one last chance to supercharge for it. Hush comes right after Mom's Heart and is a giant loving slog almost regardless of build- take you free fight for the first some 4000 HP with copious amounts of boss armor, then deal with the last 2000 while hoping that mechanics don't dance into an unavoidable mess. Glad to hear both are getting updates I might pause trying to force clears on the Tainteds until that update hits and just enjoy playing Isaac as it comes.

Hush's placement has only gotten more and more bizarre as more superbosses got added, and now it's just the awkward one that sits in the middle of a run rather than capping it off. It's weird from a thematic perspective, too - I just don't get what it brings to the table that ??? didn't already, let alone anything significant enough to deserve superboss status. Delirium sucks as a fight but it being the representation of Isaac's last moment alive is a really good concept.

1001 Arabian dicks
Sep 15, 2013

Flock of BJs


more like the farting of ballsack lmfaoooo

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



You fight Mother and Beast at basically the same point or earlier than you'd fight Hush with fewer items.

Evil Eagle
Nov 5, 2009



1001 Arabian dicks posted:

more like the farting of ballsack lmfaoooo

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010



Irony Be My Shield posted:

You fight Mother and Beast at basically the same point or earlier than you'd fight Hush with fewer items.

That's a bit reductive imo, if you break them down:

Beast:
- Can go slow + be more thorough
- Can get items you missed due to resources
- Gets 2 items at Home and a big passive buff item after Dogma
- Big telegraphed attacks, not that much life on dogma, heavily scripted fights that are fairly learnable

Mother:
- Can go slow + be more thorough
- Lots of 2-item rooms gives you an edge on item quality
- Mirror boss if you feel up to it
- Mother's patterns are brutal but at least she's usually only doing one attack at a time

Hush:
- Gotta go fast, probably have to avoid boss rush, generally not make the most of donation rooms or arcades
+ You get the mess of items on Hush's floor, sure, assuming they're any good, but:
- 1.5x the health and boss armor of Mother
- broken rear end attack patterns

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Despite Hush's HP pool imo I have to be stronger for Mother than Hush. Only a third of Hush's fight is a real threat whereas Mother is a problem the whole time.

I find Hush marks easier to pick up in general.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



The first phase of Dogma is a cool fight. The second phase is a repeated series of coin flips between the hard to dodge attack where you can't hit him and the extremely easy to dodge attack where you can unload into him freely. Then you have 10 phases of The Beast which are almost exactly the same every single time. The spectacle of the Home ending is cool the first couple of times but I think it's one of the worst bosses in the game in terms of being interesting when replayed (I have the same objection to the ascent sequence and the Knife Part 2 chase). It's interesting that you listed this as a positive - to me the fact that Delirium is different every time is a significant plus. Similarly the fact that Hush can use attacks in different combinations means that it has more variety than something like Mother, where you're basically just hoping you win the coinflip and get to see which side of the screen its charging down before it does it.

I am actually interested in tips from anyone in the "Mother is easier than Hush" camp, I'm still not really sure how you dodge the homing bullet attack or the fistula one. I do think part of it is that you're better equipped when you fight Hush - the timing means you can squeeze a bit more value out of floors and one extra boss item on the Mother route, but I think that's unlikely to outweigh 2 extra item rooms + 4 chests + 6 shop items, and grinding through an extra level of The Corpse can take a toll on your HP.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Stelas posted:

That's a bit reductive imo, if you break them down:

Beast:
- Can go slow + be more thorough
- Can get items you missed due to resources
- Gets 2 items at Home and a big passive buff item after Dogma
- Big telegraphed attacks, not that much life on dogma, heavily scripted fights that are fairly learnable

There's also the fact that you can hunt for a Planetarium during the Home path for an extra boost. Where it's kind of risky on the other paths since you can't return to the item rooms.

Mother and Hush have the same amount of boss armor now. The damage scaling page on the wiki doesn't exactly tell the whole story for some reason. The way boss armor works is that you divide the base HP by the armor amount to get the armor factor. This number then proceeds to get divided by your base DPS to determine how much your damage should get reduced by, so the bigger the armor factor is, the better it is for you.

Before Repentance nerfed Hush's armor slightly and bugged the gently caress out of Ultra Greed's armor, they actually had the same amount of damage scaling despite Ultra Greed looking like he had less armor. Ultra Greed still dies faster since he has less HP though. Same goes for Mother vs. Hush. And the way the fight phases makes her armor not as imposing as Hush's since it'll basically be reset almost entirely by the time phase 2 starts.

This also explains why the Tainted enemies during the ascent can take a bit longer to die. Despite their low amount of HP, they're reducing your damage by around 80%-90%! Of course their low HP means they can't survive your assault for that long, and if their tankiness is really a problem, throw a bomb in their face to instakill them. (Bombs being able to penetrate boss armor is a super good change. Definitely take advantage of it! Troll bombs work too if you're nuts enough to utilize Curse of the Tower/Anarchist's Cookbook. Sadly Dr. Fetus and Epic Fetus bombs won't benefit from this since they're classified as tears, has to be your own bombs.)

Also yeah, gonna have to disagree on Hush being stronger than Mother. Most of Hush's attacks are pretty slow, and you have plenty of room to dodge. It's just at the end where it can become a clusterfuck, especially with how they screwed up his AI. Mother is a lot more cramped and was really not designed for a 1x1 and 2x1 room. Mother is a shorter fight, but she has a lot more opportunities to take you down in comparison.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 14:14 on May 5, 2021

Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't
even see the code. All I see
is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...




Araxxor posted:

Sadly Dr. Fetus and Epic Fetus bombs won't benefit from this since they're classified as tears, has to be your own bombs.)

I was wondering about this but I kinda figured this was the case. It makes sense, I guess, because otherwise you would just loving rip every end boss a new rear end in a top hat

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Irony Be My Shield posted:

The first phase of Dogma is a cool fight. The second phase is a repeated series of coin flips between the hard to dodge attack where you can't hit him and the extremely easy to dodge attack where you can unload into him freely. Then you have 10 phases of The Beast which are almost exactly the same every single time. The spectacle of the Home ending is cool the first couple of times but I think it's one of the worst bosses in the game in terms of being interesting when replayed (I have the same objection to the ascent sequence and the Knife Part 2 chase). It's interesting that you listed this as a positive - to me the fact that Delirium is different every time is a significant plus. Similarly the fact that Hush can use attacks in different combinations means that it has more variety than something like Mother, where you're basically just hoping you win the coinflip and get to see which side of the screen its charging down before it does it.

I am actually interested in tips from anyone in the "Mother is easier than Hush" camp, I'm still not really sure how you dodge the homing bullet attack or the fistula one. I do think part of it is that you're better equipped when you fight Hush - the timing means you can squeeze a bit more value out of floors and one extra boss item on the Mother route, but I think that's unlikely to outweigh 2 extra item rooms + 4 chests + 6 shop items, and grinding through an extra level of The Corpse can take a toll on your HP.
Beast and Dogma don't telefrag you, which makes them better by default. They also look nice visually, have very distinct phase transitions which makes the fight feel less like endless sludge, and you don't have to chase them around a 2x2 room while they teleport away from you and also on top of you.

I don't think they're as fun to do endlessly the way that Chest/Dark Room/Mega Satan/Mother are but there are a lot of things that make the ascent feel more like the end of a single player game than a roguelike, it has actual cinematics. I don't have a problem with this, as there are three other paths to take to end the game on a more standard basis. I don't consider it a flawed design to only be interested in clearing Beast once with each character.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 14:19 on May 5, 2021

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Irony Be My Shield posted:

I am actually interested in tips from anyone in the "Mother is easier than Hush" camp, I'm still not really sure how you dodge the homing bullet attack or the fistula one. I do think part of it is that you're better equipped when you fight Hush - the timing means you can squeeze a bit more value out of floors and one extra boss item on the Mother route, but I think that's unlikely to outweigh 2 extra item rooms + 4 chests + 6 shop items, and grinding through an extra level of The Corpse can take a toll on your HP.

For the homing attack, I like to go to the opposite side of the screen of her starting slam down, as that'll give you plenty of room to weave between her bullets and head back to the side the bullets originated from. Then immediately go back to the other side so you can dodge the second volley more easily, if any of them curved back around anyways.

As for the Fistula attack, stand fairly close to the back wall, but not too close to it or you'll be hit by the radial blast of bullets after the Fistula smacks the back wall. She'll try to bat it at you, so you want to be on the move. If you basically sidestep the fistula, you should avoid that and the radial blast of bullets. Alternatively smack the Fistula back at her repeatedly, but I don't recommend doing this unless you're doing the Isaac's Awakening challenge as that's time you're not damaging Mother.

quote:

Similarly the fact that Hush can use attacks in different combinations means that it has more variety than something like Mother, where you're basically just hoping you win the coinflip and get to see which side of the screen its charging down before it does it.

The double charge in phase 2 does not involve having to pray to the RNG gods, thankfully. When she jumps up, you'll see some debris fly out from one side of the room. (Move closer to the center when you see her jump up so you can see more easily). Then just go on the opposite side to dodge it, and that should let you dodge the second charge as well.

Mother can look very daunting at first, but nailing her down can make the fight mostly straightforward. You'll have to be on the lookout for stray bullets which will happen quite a bit. Definitely not a fight you want to be doing for a long while, as Mother has plenty of opportunities to punish you if you mess up.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 14:39 on May 5, 2021

Kawalimus
Jan 17, 2008

Better Living Through Birding And Pessimism


Stelas posted:



Hush:
- Gotta go fast, probably have to avoid boss rush, generally not make the most of donation rooms or arcades
+ You get the mess of items on Hush's floor, sure, assuming they're any good, but:
- 1.5x the health and boss armor of Mother
- broken rear end attack patterns

One thing to remember--with the guaranteed fool card now on depths 2 you can always steal an item from boss rush if youre on pace, as long as you have a bomb.

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.



iím just never gonna unlock the forgotten. iím not exaggerating when iím saying that iíd rather grind out tainted lost than keep trying that. itís just such a boring type of difficulty which requires such a loving specific set of circumstances to even get started

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


watho posted:

iím just never gonna unlock the forgotten. iím not exaggerating when iím saying that iíd rather grind out tainted lost than keep trying that. itís just such a boring type of difficulty which requires such a loving specific set of circumstances to even get started

I cheesed it with Azazel and did not regret that in the slightest. Didn't find explosion protection on that run (before Repentance patched that out) so I had to make do with constantly being on the move. He has the best chance of killing the boss in less than one minute to get you a broken Shovel. And his innate flight and speed give him fantastic mobility to dodge the mom feet and basically ignore most room layouts. Be constantly moving as that'll give you the best chance of avoiding the stomps, and don't be afraid to use the broken shovel to stop her assault in bad room layouts. Also remember you can do this on normal for more heart spawns for bigger chances of living longer.

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.



i did try it with azazel on normal

municipal shrimp
Mar 30, 2011


Kawalimus posted:

One thing to remember--with the guaranteed fool card now on depths 2 you can always steal an item from boss rush if youre on pace, as long as you have a bomb.

What do you need the bomb for? If you're under 20 min you just walk in right? Can you get to boss rush if you're over the time limit?

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.



you bomb the skull for the fool card

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010



I'll definitely admit that I find Mother much harder than Hush in general. But I think Mother has less attacks that are hard counters to certain setups - Hush can swamp you so easily if you can't deal with his adds, and the last phase is awful. Most of Mother's attacks can be dealt with via either positioning or streaming movement, with some tells on top.

Irony Be My Shield posted:

It's interesting that you listed this as a positive - to me the fact that Delirium is different every time is a significant plus. Similarly the fact that Hush can use attacks in different combinations means that it has more variety than something like Mother, where you're basically just hoping you win the coinflip and get to see which side of the screen its charging down before it does it.

I think this is just a difference of opinion in what we're looking for in games in general - I'm the sort of person who likes being able to learn a fight and respond to its attacks, and I absolutely don't want 'more variety' in a boss fight if the combinations can result in situations where there are little-to-no safe spots or the boss can just teleport on top of me. That just feels like I've wasted my time.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007



Don't era walk the boss rush. It makes it way easier but you're also going to spend like 8 minutes in that room lol

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply