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Another benefit of stacking all the good stuff on one character and all the crap on the other is that rerolling the crap character into a second good one becomes a win condition. But the really important part of gitting gud with them is learning how not to get separated and how to recover gracefully when it happens. They’re still arguably the hardest untainted character in the game, but I think most runs with them are winnable - you “just” need really good room-clearing skills to build up an insurmountable advantage for the final boss, combined with a slow and thorough playstyle that maximises the advantages they do get like doubled angel/alt path item rooms, bombs, card slots. (Corollary: boss rush and Hush are horrible bullshit for making you avoid the alt path and I never want to do them again.)
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May 10, 2021 00:24
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If you see magic mush and crickets head split them cause their multipliers dont stack. I think blood of the martyrs doesnt either
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May 10, 2021 01:51
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ArfJason posted:If you see magic mush and crickets head split them cause their multipliers dont stack. I think blood of the martyrs doesnt either None of those or the strength cards stack with each other I'm pretty sure. Though the broken 2.3x sacred heart stacks with them
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May 10, 2021 01:58
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Scourge is an unfair and undodgeable boss. What the poo poo.
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May 10, 2021 02:08
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Decided to give Bethany a whirl. Lemme tell ya- Astral Projection + Spin to Win is a hilarious combo
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May 10, 2021 02:21
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The knife path is loving annoying. Too many times to count I've gotten into the flow of the game and then two floors later "Oh, I forgot to get knife piece 2", "oh, I dropped into Depths instead of Gehenna" like gently caress this thing it's too much to think about in the game I just turn on the podcast and zone out with.
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May 10, 2021 02:43
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Did todays daily and got the Purgatory item. Really really cool! Too bad me going 'what does this dice do' got rid of it 3 rooms later 
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May 10, 2021 03:01
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Araxxor posted:Something that can help make Home runs smoother is skipping the item room on Mausoleum/Ghenna 2 if you don’t have the Dream Catcher. When you begin the Ascent, both of those items will be visible after taking Dad’s Note instead of one being under the blind effect. Turns out this applies to all the item rooms on the alt path if you're doing the Ascent on there. If you're Planetarium hunting and got a strong enough start, or just don't want to risk taking the blind item pedestals on the alt path, wait until you do the Ascent to see what they are. Also somehow ended up pushing Ultra Pestilence out of the arena with lodestone procs and the battle got stuck. Exiting and restarting fixed it, but that restarts the entire battle, so be wary of that.
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May 10, 2021 03:44
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After having a pretty sour run with Tainted Apollyon become a won run once I found Bob's Rotten Head and 4.5 Volt in the same run. The final bosses all got utterly shredded. While Dr. Fetus and Epic Fetus don't count as bomb damage (they're classified as your tears), Mr. Boom and Bob's Rotten Head on the other hand, count entirely as bomb damage. The latter is a pretty big one, as Bob's Rotten Head also scales with your tear damage. If you happen to find both it and 4.5 Volt in the same run, enjoy slaughtering the hell out of any armored final boss. Unfortunately, this doesn't apply entirely to Brimstone Bombs. While the blast damage is classified as bomb damage, the actual brimstone lasers will get reduced by armor. As far as I can tell though, all other bomb items pierce armor entirely. That being said, wow Tainted Apollyon is uh, not really feature complete. This character is so dull in his current state and he barely has any unique locust effects. Araxxor fucked around with this message at 08:12 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 08:08
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Speaking of Tainted Apollyon, using the clicker as him seems to make the game crash. I'm guessing it's due to the locusts.
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May 10, 2021 10:18
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 Hi I'll have one of uhhhh everything Play this seed and laugh wildly as you climb to The Beast and get infinite angel room items from the statues. Pop nearly killed me as that item is beyond trash but still some of the most fun I've had in this game.
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May 10, 2021 11:50
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The Moon Monster posted:Speaking of Tainted Apollyon, using the clicker as him seems to make the game crash. I'm guessing it's due to the locusts.
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May 10, 2021 12:51
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I think I bugged out the Delirium fight last night somehow and I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this. I had quad shot, the angel room prism item, dr. fetus, and homing bombs. When I entered there were two delirium monstros and a giant cluster of my bombs immediately homed in on one and killed it. Once it died it started playing the post-boss music as if the fight was over even though the fight was definitely still going. At one point he split into multiple Larry Jr.s and when I killed one of them the same thing happened, the post-boss music triggered again. Once the fight was over it ended like normal and allowed me to jump into the chest so it was nothing game breaking. It was just really weird
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May 10, 2021 14:16
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I finally found Rock Bottom in the wild and even got some killer synergies: IBS (white poop aura) and Purity. What a ridiculous item!
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May 10, 2021 14:26
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PIZZA.BAT posted:I think I bugged out the Delirium fight last night somehow and I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this. I had quad shot, the angel room prism item, dr. fetus, and homing bombs. When I entered there were two delirium monstros and a giant cluster of my bombs immediately homed in on one and killed it. Once it died it started playing the post-boss music as if the fight was over even though the fight was definitely still going. At one point he split into multiple Larry Jr.s and when I killed one of them the same thing happened, the post-boss music triggered again.
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May 10, 2021 14:37
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yeah happens to me too
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May 10, 2021 14:38
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I like the delirium bug where like 75% of his health vanishes out of nowhere
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May 10, 2021 15:53
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Kawalimus posted:I like the delirium bug where like 75% of his health vanishes out of nowhere
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May 10, 2021 15:55
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It's such a lovely half-done embarrassment of a fight Also, I think it's strange that they did all of these edited sprites, and there's never a chance to fight a special Delirium Champion version of the boss regularly with some special reward
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May 10, 2021 16:20
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Kawalimus posted:I like the delirium bug where like 75% of his health vanishes out of nowhere No Wave posted:I'm always amazed at how long the fight usually still takes despite that happening. it's only a visual glitch. his actual HP doesn't change, the health bar is just displaying it wrong. the game gets very confused when he turns into a segmented boss.
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May 10, 2021 16:21
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I wondered if that might be the case but preferred to think I'd gotten a break. Oh well!
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May 10, 2021 16:46
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Any tips or overall strategy for Mother? I still cannot for the life of me do better than getting destroyed in seconds.
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May 10, 2021 17:06
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man the 50% void portal chance after mega satan sucks...just make it 100!!
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May 10, 2021 17:14
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I wish they'd give us an update on when they think they'll be able to roll out the updated stuff for the incomplete characters If this turns into Bumbo 2 I'm going to be livid PIZZA.BAT posted:Decided to give Bethany a whirl. Lemme tell ya- Astral Projection + Spin to Win is a hilarious combo Spin to win with Bethany isn't like game winning but by god it's incredibly fun
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May 10, 2021 17:18
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at the very least give me some way to guarantee it without fighting hush. I already have to fight delirium don't make it worse
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May 10, 2021 17:20
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Relyssa posted:Any tips or overall strategy for Mother? I still cannot for the life of me do better than getting destroyed in seconds. you wanna stay near the bottom of the screen for the most part. when she does the knife attack you wanna be on the bottom of the opposite side where she's slashing. when she starts spitting out more random bullet trails you may need to move up and around. speed is helpful here once that phase is dead and she starts transforming stay out of the middle of the screen because she'll do a big brimstone blast, and again get to the bottom because she'll drop down in the middle of the room grid phase is pretty easy just get in a row or column as they appear. they arent always very bright where you happen to be standing so you can kinda unfocus your eyes so you can see the whole room and that will make it easier to interpolate where the safe areas to stand are when she jumps out of the room or whatever she will rush down either the left or right half of the room. she'll always start at the top so you wanna be at the bottom to give yourself enough time to react. you'll see a little spurt on the top half of the side she is on and you wanna move to the other side. then she'll rush down the other half so you should switch sides as soon as she has passed. after both sides she'll drop down in the middle of the room again the only time i really find it helpful to move to the top of the screen or around her is when she does the move where she sucks in all the bullets and spits out a big globule. i find the bullet sucking tends to be heaviest in the area where you were first standing so it helps to move
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May 10, 2021 17:27
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Relyssa posted:Any tips or overall strategy for Mother? I still cannot for the life of me do better than getting destroyed in seconds. For phase 1, hang along the back wall a bit, and always go to the opposite side of the screen once you see her attacking with one of her hands. This easily deals with most of her attacks, meaning you just have to be on the lookout for any stray bullets that are heading towards you, such as with the knife attack. For the homing attack it's basically the same deal, I like to go to the opposite side of the screen of her starting slam down, as that'll give you plenty of room to weave between her bullets and head back to the side the bullets originated from. Then immediately go back to the other side so you can dodge the second volley more easily, if any of them curved back around anyways. As for the Fistula attack, stand fairly close to the back wall, but not too close to it or you'll be hit by the radial blast of bullets after the Fistula smacks the back wall. She'll try to bat it at you, so you want to be on the move. If you basically sidestep the fistula, you should avoid that and the radial blast of bullets. Alternatively smack the Fistula back at her repeatedly, but I don't recommend doing this unless you're doing the Isaac's Awakening challenge as that's time you're not damaging Mother. The minions attack in this phase doesn't really happen unless your run has really low DPS, but if it does, just keep on killing the minions and dodging whatever projectiles Mother sends towards you, as you can't attack Mother during this attack. Once that phase is dead, stay out of the middle of the screen unless you want to be hit by a brimstone laser. For phase 2, you'll want to hang around on the outer edges of the walls, preferably the top or bottom sides of the arena, as that will give you more room to dodge. Just keep in mind that Mother will always move towards you whenever she can, so try to make it so there's enough space between you and Mother. This should help you deal with her bullet wave attacks. The farther you are from her, the more room you have to dodge these. When Mother does her inhaling attack, looping around her is a very good way to neutralize most of the attack, as the direction the bullets come from is based on your position. So if you just walk in a circle around Mother, all you have to do is dodge any stray bullets, and her final projectile, but circling around her should already dodge that part of the attack. When Mother does the double charge, it has a visual telegraph that can easily be missed if you aren't looking for it. When she jumps up, you'll see some debris fly out from one side of the room. (Move closer to the center when you see her jump up so you can see more easily). Then just go on the opposite side to dodge it, and that should let you dodge the second charge as well. And remember to head immediately towards the top or bottom of the arena after dodging to easily dodge her final shockwave attack. The light lines attack is pretty self-explanatory. Just keep moving away from Mother as she always moves towards you whenever she's not firing the bullets from this attack.
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May 10, 2021 17:30
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Grapplejack posted:I wish they'd give us an update on when they think they'll be able to roll out the updated stuff for the incomplete characters the last patch was two weeks ago and announced that re-enabling mod support was coming with the next update, so i imagine that's taking priority over anything else at the moment
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May 10, 2021 17:35
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With the knife attack sometimes hiding out in the opposite corner I avoid the shots and sometimes I get hit. Thats the only attack she does in either phase now that i cant consistently dodge
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May 10, 2021 17:41
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Kawalimus posted:With the knife attack sometimes hiding out in the opposite corner I avoid the shots and sometimes I get hit. Thats the only attack she does in either phase now that i cant consistently dodge I think a single size down will allow you to hide perfectly in the corner. I've gotten pretty good at doing a last-second dodge upward and back to avoid that one final shot that gets you. The only real problem I have in this fight is the mass of squiggly tears that the second phase shoots out. Doesn't seem to be a trick (like the squiggly tears in the first phase you can just rotate in the same direction as them). You just have to go zen and Matrix dodge everything.
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May 10, 2021 17:46
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PostNouveau posted:I think a single size down will allow you to hide perfectly in the corner. I've gotten pretty good at doing a last-second dodge upward and back to avoid that one final shot that gets you. With the squiggly tears try to be where theres a good bit of space between you and her and just focus your eyes on two adjacent "worms", one of the long fast ones and one of the slow short ones and just move back and forth between them. I only get in trouble on those if im too close to her. And yeah i thought that was working with the knife for me, like "jumping over" the last bullet but i swear sometimes its the second to last one that gets me and im not able to tell which one it will be till it gets me or doesnt lol. Maybe it is about my character size then hm Kawalimus fucked around with this message at 18:00 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 17:53
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sorry for linking this for the billionth time but its my footage and helps me illustrate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWY3n4j_oLo knife: for the knife attack since i started dodging on the inside of the pattern rather than trying my luck hugging the wall i havent gotten hit. the diagonal lines are *always* the same, which frees up your attention to focus on the other ones  these ones always move horizontally, so you gotta move up and down. in the video i panic a bit since its my first attempt and i move more than i should.  its probably the attack i have the least issues with nowadays. the spin worm bullet attack [1:05], i cant really describe it, but the worms actually shoot in a pattern kidna like how stain does it, where they sorta follow a spiral movement, its just hard to tell because the groups wiggle around, and theres the slow ones throwing a curveball. the easiest way is keep your distance and sidestep back and forth as best you can. the inhaling attack STICK CLOSE TO MOTHER. WHEN SHES INHALING SHE CAN SPAWN TEARS ON TOP OF YOU IF YOURE NEAR THE WALLS AND THIS HAS COST ME SEVERAL RUNS. there are two very important details about this attack: a) im fairly confident with enough damage you can *destroy* the ball of bullets before it impacts on a wall. b) Mother blocks the rebounding fragments. The best way to deal with this is seeing which wall mother is closest to, and try to get her to shoot the inital ball there, then use her as cover for the ricochets. whatever stray bullets are left afterwards wont be that much of an issue since theres less of them given mother blocked a bunch of the others. (I noticed there way after recording the video so i cant point to it) the bullet lines follow alternating cardinals the first four times, but the fifth is the same way the fourth was, so when youre on the fourth line look very carefuly for holes in the previous pattern, quickly sidestep towards them and when the other line comes in, step backwards or forwards into the gap on the previous line.  I *think* theres enough spacing there for you to basically not need to move at all, but in a do or die situation id rather not test that. the rush attack has a tell on which side its coming, so dodge, and dont get near the middle of the stage once shes done her dashes cause shell slam onto you, hug a wall and avoid the worm shots
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May 10, 2021 18:14
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What I'm seeing online is people recommending you take the squiggly tears attack either directly above or directly below her and don't really anticipate any rotation because they don't really curve much. I think maybe that's what's throwing me off. I'm expecting them to curve and then just getting thrown into complete confusion when reality doesn't conform. Also the actual craziest Mother attack is the fistula one, but luckily it seems very rare. I've never actually seen the full thing because I get hit by it immediately every time. https://i.imgur.com/ED5YLFW.mp4
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May 10, 2021 18:37
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You can use mother herself as a shield for the follow up to her inhale attack during stage 2. Just run behind her once she launches it. It will bounce around a bit so you still need to look out, but that should mostly neutralize that attack.
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May 10, 2021 18:55
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Augus posted:it's only a visual glitch. his actual HP doesn't change, the health bar is just displaying it wrong. I don't think this is true lol, I just had it happen with a black heart breaking on a segmented boss on a pretty mediocre azazel and the fight was over like 15 seconds later
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May 10, 2021 20:57
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Delirum also has armor while transformed (None while in its true form and it's completely reset in that case.) So it could also be possible that the armor was working overtime when it realized the player "damaged" all that HP. And even with 75% HP missing that's like 2500 HP left + armor to deal with so that can still take a while to deplete on low DPS builds.
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May 10, 2021 21:03
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Evil Eagle posted:I don't think this is true lol, I just had it happen with a black heart breaking on a segmented boss on a pretty mediocre azazel and the fight was over like 15 seconds later usually when I have it happen the hp bar fills back up again to where it was before once he transforms into a different form 
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May 10, 2021 22:33
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Okay I played around with the armor mechanic a bit more, and I think I understand more of how it works now. Basically there's a soft DPS cap the game places for armored bosses. If you're below this DPS cap, the game doesn't give a poo poo and will do nothing to your damage. If you're above it, the game will try scaling it down, and gets more aggressive the higher above the DPS cap you are. This is capped at a 91% damage reduction at most. So it's possible to outpace the armor, but that's not happening outside of sheer luck or on the most broken of broken runs. Armor values are on this page. You get the DPS cap by dividing the base HP stat by the armor stat. So you can read the armor stat as "minimum time to kill" from a dev standpoint, though that doesn't entirely hold up as even on great runs you can kill bosses faster than that, and your initial attacks on a boss will be completely uncapped for a second or so. The game tracks your "true DPS" (Basically what your DPS would be without armor interfering) during the last 4 seconds of attacking the armored entity (You don't have to worry about the game reducing your damage for attacking other enemies), so you can "reset" the armor after 4 seconds of not attacking the enemy at all. VBut due to the way the damage reduction formula works, it's pretty much never worth it to try to "reset" armor as doing so drops your DPS more than the armor ever could have, unless that took place during a period where you could not attack the boss at all. It's better to just keep on attacking the boss whenever you can. Status effect damage from stuff like poison or burns do contribute and are subject to the DPS cap. And unfortunately, while bombs do bypass armor entirely, they do contribute to your DPS cap, so they can end up hurting your tear DPS for a bit, though not for too long and ultimately it's better to use bombs in conjunction with your tears if possible for maximum DPS. Armor also takes a few seconds to fully deploy when the boss spawns, so it's extra important to attack the boss right away so your DPS doesn't get hampered by the armor as much. This is why in fairly good DPS builds, you can see bosses like Hush lose a visible chunk of their health bar for a few seconds before the game visibly slows down the damage you deal. Midas Touch can reduce both Ultra Greed and Ultra Greedier's armor by 25%, letting you deal more damage. However the effect has to actually activate and there's a cooldown on how often you can apply status effects to bosses. For easy reference, here are the soft DPS caps of all armored entities in the game. Basically don't worry if your DPS is poo poo, the game won't do anything about it. If it's above these numbers the game will start scaling it down and get super aggressive about it if it's too high. code:For those that care, here's the specific formula for that mechanic: quote:Soft DPS Cap / True DPS in the last 4 seconds = DPS Factor Araxxor fucked around with this message at 22:52 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 22:44
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So much armor added in repentance but they forgot to put it on Tainted Esau... Also I have trouble believing Greed has less armor than Greedier, it takes so long.
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May 10, 2021 22:47
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No Wave posted:So much armor added in repentance but they forgot to put it on Tainted Esau... That's the soft DPS cap. The bigger the number, the better it is for you. Ultra Greed actually has more armor than Greedier due to a bug. (The raw armor value starts out at 85 then skyrockets to 170 shortly after the fight starts.) Resulting in that fight taking several minutes to complete unless your run is beyond broken as gently caress.
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May 10, 2021 22:54
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