Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
oldfan
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


Kundus posted:

I concede! I used a bad example!

So, help me out here. Are there any players who turned down a big signing bonus where it failed? Appel did it, but it worked out fine for him. And I didn't know about the insurance, interesting.

Matt Harrington is the typical cautionary tale, but that's a really weird case because it wasn't an issue of "turned down" per se as "team and player disagreed on what they agreed to," and because there was an agreement that at one point he agreed, he ended up in indy ball instead of college and it all went to hell.

Nearly all of the players who have turned down big money have gotten similar or more money by going into a future draft cycle. A few exceptions I can think of: the aforementioned Whitson turned down $2.1m, got hurt in college, and ended up signing for $100k. Alan Horne turned down $1.6m from the Indians, got hurt in college, and ended up signing for $300k. I don't know whether either of them were insured for loss of value.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Kundus
Oct 29, 2014


http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft/modern-history-unsigned-first-rounders/



Tyler Bedee was the kid I couldn't think of who wanted to do the college thing in lieu of money. Worked out for him!

DannoMack
Aug 1, 2003

i love it when you call me big poppa


Mods please word filter Tyler Beede to Young Beedah

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


I looked it up, and it was Al Kaline (I was thinking Ralph Kiner, but knew it was wrong, which is why I withheld the name in my original post), and here is the quote:

p.12 posted:

The top of the pay scale was $100,000 (first reached by Hank Greenberg in 1947), and players -- as surely as owners -- had to feel worthy of accepting it. "I don't deserve it," said Al Kaline, reminding Detroit general manager Jim Campbell he'd only hit .278. "Give me the same thing as last year, $93,000. Then I'll have a good year and make you really pay me."

Although Helyar doesn't give a date, this would have been after the 1960 season, when Kaline had an uncharacteristically average year. However, Baseball-Reference lists his contract at $40,000 in 1960, and $39,000 in 1961 according to "Michael Haupert research of HOF contracts". This is a large gap, but I am going to side with Helyar's numbers, just because B-R doesn't even have Greenberg listed as a $100,000 man in 1947.

Either way, there is a difference between the Matt Harringtons and Al Kalines, as Kaline rejected money because he didn't feel he was worth that much, while Harrington rejected the money because he thought he was worth more.

Deathlove
Feb 20, 2003



Pillbug

Just finished the Catfish Hunter section, it's good to know that my heart is right when it says gently caress the Yankees Forever.

Deathlove
Feb 20, 2003



Pillbug

Oh, just because I'm a gossip whore - was it ever revealed what O'Malley had on Messersmith that was so personal that he wouldn't resign with the Dodgers no matter what?

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair


Deathlove posted:

Oh, just because I'm a gossip whore - was it ever revealed what O'Malley had on Messersmith that was so personal that he wouldn't resign with the Dodgers no matter what?

I was kind of amazed that in the book he just left it up in the air like that.

angrygodofjebus
Aug 25, 2005

Drink it up and hunker down


I am just starting this today. Not sure how far everyone is but I should have plenty of time this week to catch up a bit.

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


Deathlove posted:

Oh, just because I'm a gossip whore - was it ever revealed what O'Malley had on Messersmith that was so personal that he wouldn't resign with the Dodgers no matter what?

A quick search of the internet brings up nothing. Maybe someone knows?

Also, I am around the veiled collusion of the mid- to late-80s, and it's amazing how the owners tripped over themselves offering ridiculous contracts (I am not sure if they were actually ridiculous, but Helyar does state that the offers were pretty wacky, and that marginal players were getting paid beyond their abilities), and then tried to "correct the market" by offering no contracts. Because I live in the future, I know how this turns out, but I am interested to see what happens. Although, I did laugh when Jack Morris went on a multi-city trip to drum up offers, and had to quit after the second city.

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


I understand other people probably haven't gotten to this part, but lol at the Mets/Yankees TV deals in the eighties.

Greg Brock
Feb 28, 2008



Deathlove posted:

Oh, just because I'm a gossip whore - was it ever revealed what O'Malley had on Messersmith that was so personal that he wouldn't resign with the Dodgers no matter what?

Messersmith simply wanted a no-trade clause, and O'Malley didn't want to give it to him.

In fact, had O'Malley assented to the no-trade clause, Messersmith would have signed his 1975 contract and thus would have removed himself as the only active player Marvin Miller could have used as a test case for challenging the interpretation of the reserve clause. Messersmith apologized in advance to Miller about this in a phone call, as well.

Kundus
Oct 29, 2014


The best part of that saga is O'Malley's admission that they weren't even interested in trading Messersmith, they just didn't want to give him the right of refusal. It's a good example of the paternalism that the first part of the book is centered around.

JT_Dutch posted:

Messersmith simply wanted a no-trade clause, and O'Malley didn't want to give it to him.
Helyar references an unspecified "personal issue" (p 153) the GM brought up that pissed off Messersmith. One that Messersmith wouldn't elaborate on afterward, so presumably it's not the clause. I wish we had it, both because of its seeming importance and because it's probably good gossip.

Speaking of digging up dirt, the Yankees using a PI to go after Mantle in contract talks! Never knew about that, I bet that practice never catches up with them...

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair


The best quote in the book so far:

"I have more money in my pocket for lunch than those guys have together" - Fred Wilpon, talking about White Sox co-owners Reinsdorf and Einhorn.


Fred Wilpon sucks forever.

The Pussy Boss
Nov 2, 2004



You know who rules though? Ted Turner, and his UHF station, and his yacht, and playing poker w/ his players. Like, I get that he's an rear end in a top hat capitalist millionaire like the rest of the owners, but he's having so much fun.

I'm almost halfway though the book, and digging it.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair


The Pussy Boss posted:

You know who rules though? Ted Turner, and his UHF station, and his yacht, and playing poker w/ his players. Like, I get that he's an rear end in a top hat capitalist millionaire like the rest of the owners, but he's having so much fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guJL9AkRI8s

Inspector_666 fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Nov 30, 2014

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

I live. I die. I live again.

I'm a little behind where I wanted to be, but I just finished Chapter 13 and the antics of the new doofus owners like John McMullen are amazing. I somehow didn't know McMullen owned the Astros for a while, I only knew about the Devils. That worked out a bit better for him than Houston. :shobon:

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

I live. I die. I live again.

How's everyone's progress going? I'm at about 400 pages in, should be finishing next week.

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


I finished two weeks ago and am just waiting for everyone to join me before I start discussing the book.

Deathlove
Feb 20, 2003



Pillbug

Finished it last night. I knew it was an older book, but man, it is HEARTBREAKING that the publishing date is 1994. Surely nothing interesting happened then!

Although, I expected more out of the stuff on the '81 strike than there was.

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



Deathlove posted:

Finished it last night. I knew it was an older book, but man, it is HEARTBREAKING that the publishing date is 1994. Surely nothing interesting happened then!

Although, I expected more out of the stuff on the '81 strike than there was.

I have the version that was updated for the 94 strike. Do other people not have that?

Tavarin
May 10, 2003

I am definitely a madman with a box


I also finished in last week, but am waiting for more people to finish up before I talk about it.

But yeah, the timing of the ending is a bit unfortunate.

tinstaach
Aug 3, 2010

MAGNetic AttITUDE




tadashi posted:

I have the version that was updated for the 94 strike. Do other people not have that?

I've got that one too. I'm only ~180 pages in, maybe I should speed it up.

rickiep00h
Aug 16, 2010

BATDANCE



I picked it up from the library this weekend and haven't gotten a chance to crack into it because of finals n poo poo.

I think my version is the pre-strike version. I don't have it on me right this instant.

angrygodofjebus
Aug 25, 2005

Drink it up and hunker down


tadashi posted:

I have the version that was updated for the 94 strike. Do other people not have that?

I also have this version. I'm just a bit over halfway through.

Good Dog
Oct 16, 2008

Who threw this cat at me?

Clapping Larry

I've been so busy with school and work and warm weather that I haven't had much time for reading. I'm only 100~ pages in. Discuss without me. :downs:

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

I live. I die. I live again.

tadashi posted:

I have the version that was updated for the 94 strike. Do other people not have that?

That's the one I have. We can talk about the 94 strike without Deathlove. :twisted:

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


I didn't realize there was an updated version after the '94 strike, because the narrative pushes the idea that a strike is imminent, so it ends just before the storm hits.

I will never know what happens with post-94 baseball I guess.

Pendergast
Nov 11, 2012


Little late but I placed a hold on a copy at the library.

Xenophon
Jun 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless


Grimey Drawer

I just started because of teaching obligations but so far it's great. I have the updated version. He's really good at moving backwards and forwards in time without losing you. Also, what shits the owners were/are!

Discuss without me!

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



I'm about 40 percent through (I'm at the part where owners want compensation after the initial free agency splurge) but but I will be able to catch up rapidly over the weekend and next week so I'm not worried about discussions starting without me.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

I have been turbo hosed by work so I have not read poo poo yet. I want to get in on the next one, though.

Kundus
Oct 29, 2014


I like that the book was published before the strike. Reminds me of cartoons from like 1938 warning of armageddon. If you got an updated version, though, I wouldn't mind a more detailed explanation of that part when we get to it, since a lot of us didn't get it :(

For a longer view, here's the baseball bux since 95

quote:


Xenophon
Jun 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless


Grimey Drawer

I just got to the ruling in the Seitz case (obviously I'm a bit behind!). Holy poo poo are the owners obstinate. I actually feel really bad for John Gaherin, since he seems so level-headed and patient even while working for a group of such assholes. But to be fair to both sides, (a) Helyar has some clear biases and he's extremely good at presenting the players' side favorably and (b) the owners are horrible monsters and sometimes reality does have a liberal bias. Christ almighty, Busch is basically a cartoon villain.

Petanque
Apr 14, 2008

Ca va bien aller

I've been chugging through at a healthy pace, up to Chapter 20 now. I'm on my winter break now so should easily finish it in the next few days. It's a very engaging book, great choice guys.

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


Xenophon posted:

I just got to the ruling in the Seitz case (obviously I'm a bit behind!). Holy poo poo are the owners obstinate. I actually feel really bad for John Gaherin, since he seems so level-headed and patient even while working for a group of such assholes. But to be fair to both sides, (a) Helyar has some clear biases and he's extremely good at presenting the players' side favorably and (b) the owners are horrible monsters and sometimes reality does have a liberal bias. Christ almighty, Busch is basically a cartoon villain.

Well, I think he has a bias, but I am unsure of how you would present the labour dispute between two groups in a capitalist system where one group holds all over the capital and refuses to budge.

In later chapters, Helyar becomes a bit more sympathetic to the owners (the narrative changes slightly, mostly because the "old" ownership group gets phased out), but also shows that they are huge gently caress-ups that can't really control themselves when presented with a "free" market.

Kundus
Oct 29, 2014


One of the best aspects of the book is characters who get mentioned whose role grows or changes after 1994. It reminds me that Tim McCarver's life's work is

The bad? Sharing a booth with Joe Buck
The good? Everything else

So, call it a wash. ;)

Anyway, other good cameos? I wouldn't really count Selig or Fehr, and the Fred Wilpon quote mentioned earlier is golden. Two that come to mind are the Suncoast Dome (the Trop) and George Bush, son of the president !! (W).

Xenophon
Jun 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless


Grimey Drawer

Joe Torre immediately springs to mind - I didn't realize he was so active in the player union, and his post-1994 career has obviously been a pretty drat good one.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair


Kundus posted:

Two that come to mind are the Suncoast Dome (the Trop) and George Bush, son of the president !! (W).

I did think it was funny how quaint W's credentials were. And also the fact that even back then nobody trusted him with any real responsibility.

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

I live. I die. I live again.

Hello, friends. Are we all finished with the book? It took me longer than I expected due to work craziness in the early part of December but I am done.

Also, do we want to do another month of this?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

angrygodofjebus
Aug 25, 2005

Drink it up and hunker down


leokitty posted:

Hello, friends. Are we all finished with the book? It took me longer than I expected due to work craziness in the early part of December but I am done.

Also, do we want to do another month of this?

I have like 100 pages left and I've liked it a lot. The Ted Turner stuff in the first few hundred pages is pretty great, for one. I also didn't realize exactly how much Marvin Miller accomplished.

I'd definitely be in for another month/book, which I assume would be a shorter read and with a much less hectic schedule for most people.

  • Locked thread