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Eight Dollars
Nov 14, 2012

Pretty pictures in small frames

TechnoZone of Monster Island

Well a'golly and a'gosh ol' Jean was confused about this mysterious island. The canoe he had made out of the hundred biggest trees in Wyoming still wasn't large enough to fit his compatriot Greg the Big Orange Buffalo and this weird place full of doo-dads and whatyados was different from the deep mines he worked in or the wonderful blue skies of his home sweet home.

He was a'settling to rustle up some grub for his dinner when he heard something that sounded like a daggum thunderbolt. But not a cloud in the sky - well other than the smoke coming out of all the smokestacks in the zone. Could it be this was another time like when he fought back the black thunderclouds which were planning to flood Bighorn River. He didn't bring his giant bellows!

Something smelled like burning to Jean's giant nostrils. It took a few moments for him to realize there was a hole in him the size of a couple of barrels of his favorite brand of whiske...

With a giant thud Jean's body flopped down on the gear-strewn earth. A bottle of "Mama Paul's Tinctures" rolled out of his pocked and into a turbine.


Met (Jean Paulson, The Giant Miner of Wyoming) Planet-Aligned 2-Shot Night Absorber was blasted!

The day continues...

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Eight Dollars
Nov 14, 2012

Pretty pictures in small frames

Votecount for Day 1

Ernie. (2): EccoRaven, The Science of Suck
Poison Mushroom (2): AtrociousToaster, Poison Mushroom
Ixtlilton (2): merk, Somberbrero, Ernie., Ernie.
Puntification (1): EXAKT Science, EXAKT Science, EXAKT Science, AtrociousToaster, AtrociousToaster
HiipFire (1): Puntification
EccoRaven (1): Asiina
Somberbrero (0): Puntification, Puntification, The Science of Suck, The Science of Suck
EXAKT Science (0): Puntification, Poison Mushroom, Puntification, Poison Mushroom
AtrociousToaster (0): Puntification, Puntification

Not Voting (13): bowmore, Dr. Hurt, Dugong, Ernie., fiery_valkyrie, HiipFire, Ixtlilton, Mad Rancher, Meinberg, Monathin, Motley, Opopanax, Tremendous Taste

With 22 alive, it's 12 votes to lynch. The current deadline is November 17th, 2014 at midnight EST -- that's in about 2 days, 11 hours.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Ernie. posted:

Did you miss the post I made that gives away that I think the op is lying because otherwise the game can't be balanced classically or reasonably?

EccoRaven posted:

These kinds of questions are incredibly unhelpful. The only people who would know are scum and they're not going to mess up. Town might (and often does in these situations) reveal their roles or other private knowledge to the scum in trying to "figure it out."

still true 4 u 2 erniebro

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012



The Science of Suck posted:

i probably just ignored it because i don't care about setup speculation and also it speaks nothing to my point about you paying attention to one part of the game while seemingly not another part that conveniently lets you townslip

:aaaaa:

"I ignored some parts of what you said but not others but I don't believe you ignore some parts of what are said but not others"

:aaaaa:

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Eight Dollars posted:

Met (Jean Paulson, The Giant Miner of Wyoming) Planet-Aligned 2-Shot Night Absorber was blasted!
Spoiler alert I had him on ignore so thanks meinberg :patriot:

Meinberg
Oct 9, 2011


In the balance, I still feel okay about that. I'm now vanilla though, so there's that.

Also, you have no idea how hard it is for me to not be setup speculating right now. There would be so much speculation if it wasn't ultimately counter-productive!

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Meinberg posted:

In the balance, I still feel okay about that. I'm now vanilla though, so there's that.

Also, you have no idea how hard it is for me to not be setup speculating right now. There would be so much speculation if it wasn't ultimately counter-productive!

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012



EccoRaven posted:

still true 4 u 2 erniebro

You and I can disagree about game theory but it doesn't make you right. In a game where everyone must act at least a little scummy including the scum, the powers are mostly going to focus on ability modification. Which means either the scum have access to more than one ability each, or more likely, the abilities they have counter directly the abilities town players have.

Here's a practical application of set up speculation: The scum this game are themselves a town that have to reach majority properly, while themselves being right about targeting town players at night. They're probably told how many scum are in the game. A town cop would be woefully wrong a lot of the time but a scum cop would be helpfully right a lot of the time, meaning anyone who claims cop in this game is more likely scum than town because in this game the ability favors scum players more.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Ernie. posted:

In a game where everyone must act at least a little scummy
This is bananas and you should feel dumb for typing it.

Ernie. posted:

Here's a practical application of set up speculation::woof:

Cool Story, Bro. How does this help us find scum?

Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



I could've made mixed drinks with him, you monster. Also, that's fair Ernest and I have to go into work now.

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012



Meinberg if I give you another vig will you shoot ecco?

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Ernie. posted:

Meinberg if I give you another vig will you shoot ecco?

The scum are in a weird position where they have to act townie enough not to be voted on, but scummy enough to not be selected for a nightkill.

We as townies have literally no need to "act a little scummy," that's such a completely bonkers statement.

You then speculate that a cop is more likely to be scum than town; cool beans. We can use this information to analyze these current active cop claims:








You're a dumbbutt.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


"I just want us to remember that there probably aren't watchers or trackers!"

- doesn't help us find scum.

"Cops are probably more likely scum than town!"

- doesn't help us find scum.

"I am a dumb butt whose face is a butt and my words are farts and also I have a butt on my butt"

- doesn't help us find scum.


All it does is risk a townie saying "actually, I'm a tracker," or "I'm a cop and town," even if obliquely. It just plain isn't helpful.

So everyone stop, and also consider voting Ernie because wow.

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012



??? The less scum are able to reach a majority vote on a town target, the less their individual knowledge on which townies are valuable to the town become an advantage.

Are you even aware of how mafia works????

In a normal game scum would rather bus a teammate with more heat on them than less. Or one that's been copped. Now reverse the logic to find out what scum this game might play like

Meinberg
Oct 9, 2011


Ernie. posted:

Meinberg if I give you another vig will you shoot ecco?

Probably not. I'd much rather take my time now and examine things carefully, now that the rush of the D1 vig has worn off.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Ernie. posted:

??? The less scum are able to reach a majority vote on a town target, the less their individual knowledge on which townies are valuable to the town become an advantage.
The less townies play like townies, the harder we have to figure out who among them is scum.

YOU'RE POSTING BONKERS, ERNIE.

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012



EccoRaven posted:

The less townies play like townies, the harder we have to figure out who among them is scum.

YOU'RE POSTING BONKERS, ERNIE.

In fact I'm not. Scum this game are playing like survivors. Not only that they're playing like survivors who don't care if they die because their teammates can win without them and also because no connections can be made.

If we nail one scum or two scum there's no guarantee that we can nail three or four. On the other hand they're shooting fish in a barrel. The more townies play like townies the easier the game is for scum. If we want to win the game has to be played differently. If more than one person claims their role then the scum simply can't coordinate which they think is most dangerous depending on their personal roles.

I can even start.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


FULLCLAIMING ROLES IS SUCH A FLIPPING STUPID IDEA.

WE HAVE LITERALLY NO IDEA WHAT THE MAFIA HAVE.

YOU'RE BANANAS.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

I agree with Ernie. Anyone who is super obviously town is an easy coordinated attack for scum. The more doubt scum has that town players are actually town, the more likely scum are to hit their own with the night kill.

Everyone needs to walk this line, not just scum.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


The goal of "the mafia accidentally killing each other" is FAR OUTWEIGHED BY the town's need to VOTE CORRECTLY.

Scum can never play as townie as actual townies; even if they can't coordinate they'll still have that lack of true scumhunting, the insincerity in casemaking, or the hesitation before pursuing a case against someone they think is scum, too. The goal is for townies to actually play like town in such a way that, even without "connections," we can still figure out generally who is scum and who isn't.

We also have the advantage of being able to discuss and piece it together collectively. One player can never figure out the entire game on their own - the mafia are entirely on their own. The odds they can figure out who is scum and town as well as we can, all, together, collectively, is really really small.

It's just so completely bonkers. Yeah the setup is different than usual; that doesn't mean we should throw everything out the window and play like fools.

t a s t e
Sep 6, 2010


That was a stupid loving vig

Way to be, SAMafia

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

GUESS WHO'S LYING


Grimey Drawer

Tremendous Taste posted:

That was a stupid loving vig

Way to be, SAMafia

This never would have happened on 2+2!!!

t a s t e
Sep 6, 2010


I would have vigged myself irl on 2+2 mafia

t a s t e
Sep 6, 2010


incidentally meinberg took an excuse to use a scumvig

Meinberg
Oct 9, 2011


Tremendous Taste posted:

incidentally meinberg took an excuse to use a scumvig

Or.... did he?

t a s t e
Sep 6, 2010


Meinberg posted:

Or.... did he?

yes, he did. ##vote meinberg

Jato
Dec 21, 2009

hootin' and hollerin'


Tremendous Taste posted:

incidentally meinberg took an excuse to use a scumvig

I kinda agree. Killing Met just because he was a jerk in a previous thread seems like a waste otherwise.

##vote meinberg

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


Hark, Terrordon wishes to speak and so all must listen. Terrordon, the Beast of the Northeast, would usually take great pleasure in the destruction of a human pretending to be a monster. However, Terrordon has never heard of Whyohming in His milennia of existence and has many questions he demands be answered.

The research of I, Krak, indicates Whyohming to be a barren land, absent of pizza and basketball. Terrordon asks whether this can be true, as such a blighted desert would be unworthy even of smashing.

Dugong posted:

So scum don't know each other. What do we think is the advantage for them to balance this out?

I'm not sure it would be more vanilla mafia than normal as the gimmick would then become SKs who have to share a kill.

I'm thinking stronger powers for the mafia instead. This has the additional problem of town powers being devalued by role blockers, drivers etc. It could just be they get more shots of their powers.

The randomly selected night is interesting. Combined with not knowing each other it opens up the possibility of scum killing their own members.

As I, Krak the Herald, read this post aloud to Terrordon, he began to shake with uncontrollable rage. He has since calmed and we have already buried most of the dead. He speaks an ancient and immutable wisdom, that many who speak vex themselves over the way monsters will battle instead of themselves battling monsters, are hardly monsters at all, and worthy of destruction. Those who speak such in vague terms to avoid commenting on any recent development are, at best, humans pretending to be monsters. Terrordon speaks that such is disgusting to him.


Tremendous Taste posted:

incidentally meinberg took an excuse to use a scumvig

Such is nonsense, speaks Terrordon. In Terrordon's experience, monsters love to destroy other monsters immediately with powerful attacks. It is forever the humans who play unfairly and save their best weapons until the final moments to cheat Terrordon from complete and utter victory, forcing him to retreat back to His island.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Somberbrero posted:

The research of I, Krak, indicates Whyohming to be a barren land, absent of pizza and basketball.
You didn't look very hard

http://www.luskherald.com/v2_news_articles.php?story_id=1612&page=72

http://www.gowyo.com/sports/m-baskbl/wyo-m-baskbl-body.html

GOSH I SWEAR I AM IN A TOWN OF FOOLS.

Dugong
Mar 18, 2013

I don't know what to do,
I'm going to lose my mind



I think Meinberg should have waited longer to use the vig but the discussion would have still been how much Met would ruin the game if he was still alive.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

I don't think Ernie's mindset is a town mindset. I completely don't agree with his argument that town should try to look a little scummy. I think he is approaching the game from a mindset of how, as scum, does he identify his buddies.

##vote Ernie

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


As always, I speak for Terrordon. Terrordon has given all loyal subjects the weekend off in celebration of His imminent victory over all monsters. The disloyal subjects shall envy the dead.

Girlfriend is out of town this weekend and she took my laptop. Don't wanna lynch Ernie or Meinstein, wanna lynch Dugong or JJ(he will forget the game exists at some point).

merk
May 20, 2003

##interact

fiery_valkyrie posted:

I don't think Ernie's mindset is a town mindset. I completely don't agree with his argument that town should try to look a little scummy. I think he is approaching the game from a mindset of how, as scum, does he identify his buddies.

##vote Ernie

I generally disfavor arguments that are based on disagreements over general mafia theory. I also disagree with Ernie, but I don't think he's scum for trying to advance that strategy. A better argument for Ernie being scum would be what Ecco said on the last page. What do you think about that argument?

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

merk posted:

I generally disfavor arguments that are based on disagreements over general mafia theory. I also disagree with Ernie, but I don't think he's scum for trying to advance that strategy. A better argument for Ernie being scum would be what Ecco said on the last page. What do you think about that argument?

Not sure what you are referring to specifically. Do you mean where Ecco said that townies trying to be scummy is stupid? Because yes I agree with that and I'm not sure how it is a different case for Ernie being scum than what I just said.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


I think it's scummy to advance the position Ernie has been, yes. I think it's encouraging the town to make mistakes, and his insistence pushes it away from "disagreement about strategy" to "actively trying to harm the game."

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


EccoRaven posted:

I think it's scummy to advance the position Ernie has been, yes. I think it's encouraging the town to make mistakes, and his insistence pushes it away from "disagreement about strategy" to "actively trying to harm the game."

Terrordon sees no merit in your reasoning, and His eyes are so enormous that is only possible if your merit is very small, like an ant.

Ra, father of Kra, father of Krak, believed that the best way to avoid the footfalls of Terrordon was to curl up in a small ball as to reduce the surface area available to be squished. His cousin Ga insisted that the best way to avoid footfalls was to run as quickly as possible. Each believed their plan best, though neither could know without testing. Their insistence meant nothing as both efforts were sincere.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

Somberbrero posted:

Terrordon sees no merit in your reasoning,

Why not?

Also, I really hope the end result of your naming of those peons (or whatever they are) is Krakatoa.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Somberbrero posted:

Their insistence meant nothing as both efforts were sincere.

Ernie straight up said everyone should fullclaim day 1 without knowing anything else in the setup but what was in the OP.

If he was actually a townie trying to game the game he'd have recognized "hey what I am saying is really gross and strange but I think it makes sense considering the setup from what we know, let's talk about it." Not, "gently caress off ecco let's fullclaim!!"

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


I have no idea what's going on any more. I just want to punch monsters.

I am, however, pleased that the Ecco Gambit-vig went through.

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Monathin
Sep 1, 2011


I think that Ernie's right, because anyone who seems super town-sided would be easy enough to pick as a target even with a mafia that doesn't know each other, and obfuscating your intentions to some degree helps keep the mafia from being able to make coordinated decisions.

I do think "therefore fullclaim" is a loving bonkers logical endpoint to take that, however, but at the same time with dayvig already burned on a townie (if admittedly one nobody liked). If we mess up and just playing by his own rules (IE, seem scummy to draw attention away from scum trying to target him), then we're down two townies on day one going into night one. That strikes me as... suboptimal at best.

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