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 http://www.serialpodcast.org/ quote:In the off-chance you’re not already listening to the podcast Serial, this is a PSA: you should start. Not only is the weekly series a gripping true-crime mystery, it’s showing that podcasts can be appointment-listening in a way previously reserved for television. -The Verge What is Serial? The first podcast-only offering from WBEZ and the producers of This American Life, Serial is a weekly nonfiction narrative podcast doing long-form reporting on one story at a time. The first season, currently airing, discusses the 1999 murder of Hae Min Lee - a high school student from Baltimore, Maryland. Her ex-boyfriend, a classmate at school named Adnan Syed, was accused via an anonymous phone call to a police tipline after a lengthy missing persons search for Hae. Adnan was eventually convicted, thanks largely to the testimony of a former schoolmate, Jay, who testified that Adnan pressured him into helping with the burial of Hae's body.  Hae and Adnan The podcast is told from the perspective of Sarah Koenig, a producer with the This American Life team, who was contacted by a friend of Adnan's family (Rabia), asking her to look into the case in advance of another attempt at appeal. Sarah has spent over a year looking into the case and speaking with the principals, including regular jailhouse phone calls to Adnan. Adnan has steadfastly maintained his innocence for the past 15 years, and as Sarah continues to investigate, she uncovers multiple reasons to be suspicious of the prosecution's narrative of the case. She also uncovers plenty of reasons to be suspicious of Adnan's narrative. Each episode details a different part of Sarah's look into the case, which continues to unfold in real-time. What we know:  Related links: The Verge on why you should be listening to Serial: http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2014/11/7/7172167/why-you-need-to-listen-to-serial-and-what-to-read-once-you-start A recent Baltimore Sun article with clippings from their 1999 coverage: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-syed-murder-case-20141010-story.html Rabia's blog: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/splitthemoon/ Other photos and articles related to the case: http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2k26ic/photos_articles_etc_related_to_the_case/ AVClub's article/video tour of the locations: http://www.avclub.com/article/take-video-tour-locations-involved-serial-211695 This thread brought to you by Mail...Kimp? Euthyphro fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 17:53
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OK so since the OP doesn't bother explaining what this is, it's a podcast by people who normally work on This American Life and was originally conceived as an episode of that show that took on a life of its own. Its about one of their reporters investigating a 15 year old murder case that was tried on the most circumstantial of evidence. To be more specific, Adnan Syed was tried and convicted for the murder of his ex-girlfriend based on the testimony of his friend and some cell phone records, all of which are really flimsy and point both ways at best. He has maintained his innocence for fifteen years. The podcast is basically a real time documentation of the investigation. It's dope.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:41
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It IS dope. The storytelling format is amazing between the interviews, revisiting of the evidence, the exploration of bigger themes (memory, teenage rebellion/angst, trust), the real time aspect and Sarah Koenig's externalized thoughts. It's like This American Life on steroids. My two cents: At this point in time I am of the opinion that while there was not enough evidence to convict Adnan, he had to have had some sort of involvement in what happened to Hae. Jay's knowledge doesn't make any sense without Adnan. The chances of him getting Hae alone are slim...unless she was trying to score weed real quick before going to see Don. And if Jay did it, there had to be a second person to help drop off the car. That combined with the fact that accusing Adnan would have been too risky (what if he actually did have an alibi that could be verified?) has me thinking Jay isn't just blowing smoke. But of course, we still have a handful of episodes left!
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Nov 13, 2014 02:22
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That was a loving terrible OP, but this is a very good podcast and anybody on the fence should definitely give it a shot. Sarah Koenig is a fantastic storyteller, and while you can definitely feel the This American Life influence running throughout, Serial truly is like nothing I've ever heard before. Waiting week to week for the next episode to come out is painful, just because this particular case is so gripping and could go so many ways. When I started, I was convinced Adnan was innocent. Now? Not so sure. Some of this has to do with the way SK is weaving the story, but even just looking at the whole thing with a 40,000-foot view, you can see there are details that pin him to the wall and details that seemingly exonerate him. So bizarre. Either way, I have no loving idea how the jury could look at the case and convict. As someone in the most recent episode said, there are mountains of reasonable doubt. Even if Adnan turns out to have done it, there's no way the prosecution's case was strong enough to put him away.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:31
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Oh c'mon, people bitch for weeks about there being no Serial thread, and someone finally makes it. Can't complain at the OP after all of that. Can't wait for next episode. Really interested in seeing how things develop with the Innocent Project taking a look at the case.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:50
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While I think Adnan probably did it (or at the very least was heavily involved), there's still a ton of reasonable doubt and if I were on the jury I certainly wouldn't have voted to convict him. Is there a way to convict a defense lawyer for the crimes of their client? Because holy poo poo she was the worst loving attorney I've ever heard of. Like, I'm pretty sure Barry Zuckerkorn could have done a better cross-examination of Jay than she did.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:17
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I think he's guilty. I want to believe he's innocent. I don't think there's enough to pin it on him beyond all reasonable doubt. Jay is a sketchball but at the same time I don't think he did it. Mr S is awesome. I love this podcast. I can't wait to hear the next episode. What a weird and interesting case. Sarah Koerig is great. Good stuff.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:36
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Tomorrow should be good, it's about goddamned time we heard more about Jay considering he is literally the entire case against Adnan. Like basically everyone else, I think that it's likely that Adnan did it, but I'm surprised he was convicted based on a dearth of real evidence.
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Nov 13, 2014 04:09
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If you went and researched the case, or read Reddit please use spoiler tags for those who only want to know up to what happened in the current episode.
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Nov 13, 2014 04:40
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I think Adnan made the OP
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Nov 13, 2014 09:19
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ninjahedgehog posted:While I think Adnan probably did it (or at the very least was heavily involved), there's still a ton of reasonable doubt and if I were on the jury I certainly wouldn't have voted to convict him. I think this most peoples' (and the most sensible) take at this moment: he shouldn't have been convicted, but there's some strangeness floating around him that certainly makes him "a person of interest". I occasionally find Koenig's flow-of-consciousness talking irritating but, to put it in a positive light, it does reflect that way people thing about these cases, in very subjective cliches: He's a good kid. He's smart. That doesn't seem right. This is bad for Adnan. I don't know if that was a deliberate choice, but it reminds of interviews with jurors after trials: We just didn't like him. We didn't believe him. I'm slightly sceptical about Koenig's declarations that she doesn't know where the story is going. I doubt you would invest a whole year chasing a story that could implode in the second episode. (Adnan confesses. Another witness comes forward.) So I feel she's got some trump card ready to play. But this is just my subjective opinion.
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Nov 13, 2014 11:07
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outlier posted:I'm slightly sceptical about Koenig's declarations that she doesn't know where the story is going. I doubt you would invest a whole year chasing a story that could implode in the second episode. (Adnan confesses. Another witness comes forward.) So I feel she's got some trump card ready to play. But this is just my subjective opinion. She has said there is a conclusion of sorts, but there are still threads and loose ends being researched. The whole thing is ongoing, so it's not like she has had everything in the can from the beginning. Or, hell, she could know with absolute certainty who did it and have found out months ago but is teasing it out. She's in control of the narrative flow, which has been fantastic but also pretty frustrating. I honesty don't think this ends with anything concrete, but with the way it's moving it is really hard to tell.
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Nov 13, 2014 12:04
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New episode - "The Deal with Jay" - went up this morning, and gently caress. I was ready for this episode to really pin Jay down and shift the focus of guilt toward him, but I came away from it thinking he's not such a bad dude. I wonder how the discourse over the next week is going to shift. Also does anybody else think Adnan's lawyer was a total piece of poo poo? Every time a recording of her has played it has been cringeworthy to listen to. Toaster Beef fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 14:04
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It's definitely and interesting story. Maybe I've missed it but there seems to be no motive for any of the people to have killed Hae. The most recent episode was really good and I'm curious to see how this plays out. I do wish all of the episodes were out so I can binge through it straight. Which I may end up doing once everything comes out. I did read this last night: http://mentalfloss.com/article/60016/10-crazy-and-some-not-so-crazy-serial-theories
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Nov 13, 2014 15:17
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I'm so angry at the juror at the end of the most recent episode who said it was "huge" to the jury that Adnan didn't testify. That poo poo right there is the sort of thing that should be grounds for a retrial if a juror admits that.
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Nov 13, 2014 15:49
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calandryll posted:It's definitely and interesting story. Maybe I've missed it but there seems to be no motive for any of the people to have killed Hae. The most recent episode was really good and I'm curious to see how this plays out. I do wish all of the episodes were out so I can binge through it straight. Which I may end up doing once everything comes out. The second theory noted in that link refers to a comment by Adnan (at his trial, and about Jay) that has stuck with me for a while now: "pathetic". If Adnan were being framed, why would he come up with that particular choice of words? That sounds much more like exasperation at being ratted out than the plea of innocence of a man being lied about in court. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words, but it just seems like a very strange thing to say unless they were both involved.
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Nov 13, 2014 16:03
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Sheikh Djibouti posted:The second theory noted in that link refers to a comment by Adnan (at his trial, and about Jay) that has stuck with me for a while now: "pathetic". If Adnan were being framed, why would he come up with that particular choice of words? That sounds much more like exasperation at being ratted out than the plea of innocence of a man being lied about in court. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words, but it just seems like a very strange thing to say unless they were both involved. Yeah, that quote REALLY stuck with me when I re-listened to that episode a couple of days ago, and after listening to this morning's episode I feel like Adnan probably did do it. This fuckin' podcast!
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Nov 13, 2014 16:30
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Sheikh Djibouti posted:The second theory noted in that link refers to a comment by Adnan (at his trial, and about Jay) that has stuck with me for a while now: "pathetic". If Adnan were being framed, why would he come up with that particular choice of words? That sounds much more like exasperation at being ratted out than the plea of innocence of a man being lied about in court. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words, but it just seems like a very strange thing to say unless they were both involved. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. The problem is that pretty much everything said by everybody in this podcast could be taken, in one form or another, as The Key Detail. What I can't get over is the complete lack of physical evidence. There's absolutely nothing to tie Adnan to the crime itself. Same with Jay, even though his knowing where the car was does confirm — to some extent — his involvement. Either one of these two managed to commit the perfect murder, or something's just ... missing. Another suspect, a shred of evidence, a key witness, something.
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Nov 13, 2014 16:43
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I'm about to listen to the new episode but it is also kind of weird that I don't think we've even heard Adnan mention It being hosed up that Jay would frame him. I know it's 15 years later and he's seemingly come to terms with the fact he'll be stuck in prison for the rest of his life but I'm not sure I would ever stop holding a ton of resentment toward Jay. At one point he was like "I don't know why someone would say that stuff happened?" Instead of "why the gently caress would Jay point the finger at me? I didnt do it...maybe uh he loving killed her" if I didn't do it
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Nov 13, 2014 16:45
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:I'm about to listen to the new episode but it is also kind of weird that I don't think we've even heard Adnan mention It being hosed up that Jay would frame him. I know it's 15 years later and he's seemingly come to terms with the fact he'll be stuck in prison for the rest of his life but I'm not sure I would ever stop holding a ton of resentment toward Jay. At one point he was like "I don't know why someone would say that stuff happened?" Instead of "why the gently caress would Jay point the finger at me? I didnt do it...maybe uh he loving killed her" if I didn't do it I'm assuming he's talked about that quite a bit, and Sarah's just choosing to dole out audio clips of it a bit at a time. I was thinking about the effect of the selective editing quite a bit during this most recent episode (episode 8). When Jay's friend told the story about Jay trying to stab him, that certainly came in the context of a long interview where the friend was trying to paint a cohesive picture of the Jay he knew in high school. All we hear is the clip of Jay trying to stab him.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:31
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Sheikh Djibouti posted:The second theory noted in that link refers to a comment by Adnan (at his trial, and about Jay) that has stuck with me for a while now: "pathetic". If Adnan were being framed, why would he come up with that particular choice of words? That sounds much more like exasperation at being ratted out than the plea of innocence of a man being lied about in court. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words, but it just seems like a very strange thing to say unless they were both involved. That word choice didn't really strike me as anything odd. Maybe it's just me. Weird analogy incoming, but if you watch Survivor, it reminded me of Season 20 (Heroes vs. Villains) when Coach betrayed Boston Rob, and as Boston Rob was walking out, he turned to Coach to say, "You're a little man, Coach."
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Nov 13, 2014 17:39
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ninjahedgehog posted:While I think Adnan probably did it (or at the very least was heavily involved), there's still a ton of reasonable doubt and if I were on the jury I certainly wouldn't have voted to convict him. His attorney is dead and her history of being a dipshit is part of what started this investigation.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:41
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Man. I like Jay after this new episode.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:42
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bows1 posted:Man. I like Jay after this new episode. He'd stab you like a bro.
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Nov 13, 2014 18:01
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Euthyphro posted:He'd stab you like a bro. Just a little bit!
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Nov 13, 2014 18:19
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Euthyphro posted:That word choice didn't really strike me as anything odd. Maybe it's just me. Weird analogy incoming, but if you watch Survivor, it reminded me of Season 20 (Heroes vs. Villains) when Coach betrayed Boston Rob, and as Boston Rob was walking out, he turned to Coach to say, "You're a little man, Coach." I think you can easily run into trouble once you start thinking: I'd never say that. If I was in jail for 15 years, I would ... I'd never do that. That's not how I'd think. Because people react differently, few of us have been in a situation remotely like his, a slip of the tongue or a single word uttered in the heat of the moment shouldn't be analysed that heavily, etc. etc. I looked at Reddit briefly for their Serial coverage and was glad to see a post admonishing people for this behaviour. Failing to conform to our preconceptions is flimsy evidence. Congrats to the OP for starting this thread. I had doubts it would get enough interest, but here we are.
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Nov 13, 2014 18:38
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What I really want an episode about The Nisha Call, but I have a feeling they are saving that for a few weeks out.
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Nov 13, 2014 18:40
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Minor correction for the OP: Jay wasn't Adnan or Hae's classmate, he had graduated the year before. I don't recall if any of them had interacted while they were all in school together, though.
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Nov 13, 2014 19:27
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ninjahedgehog posted:Minor correction for the OP: Jay wasn't Adnan or Hae's classmate, he had graduated the year before. I don't recall if any of them had interacted while they were all in school together, though. Corrected that. Thanks!
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Nov 13, 2014 19:38
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I'm more convinced by Jay's side of the story after that latest episode, but it does seem like he has to be holding some information back to protect himself for the inconsistencies to make any sense. The other thing I'm really hung up on is the jury just taking 2 hours to convict whilst there is that much reasonable doubt. I guess I'd like to see how that compares to other convictions when there is a similar level of doubt.
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Nov 13, 2014 20:32
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Southy posted:I'm more convinced by Jay's side of the story after that latest episode, but it does seem like he has to be holding some information back to protect himself for the inconsistencies to make any sense. The other thing I'm really hung up on is the jury just taking 2 hours to convict whilst there is that much reasonable doubt. I guess I'd like to see how that compares to other convictions when there is a similar level of doubt. On one level, this season is the story of Hae Lee's death and Adnan's conviction. On another level, it's a story about what the justice system is like in murky cases. It's a mystery on the first level, but a horror story on the second.
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Nov 13, 2014 20:39
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Southy posted:The other thing I'm really hung up on is the jury just taking 2 hours to convict whilst there is that much reasonable doubt. I guess I'd like to see how that compares to other convictions when there is a similar level of doubt. The case was presented to the jury with much less reasonable doubt than what Serial has built, so it's not really surprising at all that they reached a verdict so quickly.
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Nov 13, 2014 21:30
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Shitshow posted:The case was presented to the jury with much less reasonable doubt than what Serial has built, so it's not really surprising at all that they reached a verdict so quickly. Yeah, I suppose so. This obviously puts the scrutiny back on Adnan's attorney and how she approached the case. It sounded from the clip that was played of her today that her strategy was to get Jay to indict himself, rather than look for doubt in his testimony and the case. It would be interesting to hear some proper analysis of her methods in the same vein as the former detective in the most recent episode.
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Nov 13, 2014 21:57
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Like many, I find myself believing Adnan was wrongfully convicted, though not necessarily 'innocent.' The entire case itself has been a mess, though I'm in inclined to believe that's more the rule than the exception when it comes to the legal system. For today's episode, the interview with Chris towards the end is what gave me pause -- when he recounts Jay telling him that Adnan killed Hae at the library parking lot, which corroborates Asia's letters about seeing Adnan during that time . It seemed like Chris' recollection was the most honest-sounding account so far. I've heard the case is working its way through the appeals court right now There is a thriving subreddit, and you can watch the deranged masses argue forever over case minutia. Rabia Chaudry and Saad also show up to post.
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Nov 13, 2014 22:08
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Southy posted:It would be interesting to hear some proper analysis of her methods in the same vein as the former detective in the most recent episode. The whole reason this case was opened was because Sarah Koening covered Cristina Gutierrez's disbarment, and Rabia reached out to Sarah to take a look at this case. I'm surprised Sarah hasn't covered this more, but since Cristina's not exactly around, there's not really much of a point. Bitchkrieg posted:There is a thriving subreddit, and you can watch the deranged masses argue forever over case minutia. It is also living proof why the court of public opinion should never under any circumstances be allowed anywhere near the judicial system, which, unbelievably crappy as it is, is sometimes not collectively insane. The most basic legal rules and protections mean absolutely nothing to the vast majority of people there. It's really fun to watch.  Most importantly: Serial has truly arrived because there are hilarious parodies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stYkaBFpDyc
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Nov 13, 2014 22:35
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Here's why I think Adnan is involved in the murder, regardless of the level of Jay's involvement: - Adnan's cell phone pinged a cell tower near Leakin Park the night of the murder. I know that cell tower pings are not a great way to verify where someone is, but in that podcast episode Sarah and her friend ask some cell phone experts and conclude that the pinging means there is a pretty high probability the phone was in the park. He says the phone was with him after track practice, and I feel like at the time he said that he may not have realized that cell phones can be traced to a location using towers. - The Nisha call, for obvious reasons. A butt-dial can happen but its a stretch, and its a double stretch that a) a butt dial happened and b) Nisha was wrong about having an answering machine (edit: this machine part is important because the call went on for a few min). I'm old enough to have used those Nokia phones and butt-dials were much, much rarer on those phones than a modern touchscreen phone where brushing the screen against your pocket can cause a buttdial. - In one of the earlier episodes, one of Adnan's friends (I think it may have been Yasser Ali?) is asked where he thinks Adnan would go to get rid of a car. The friend says the woods. I think it's REALLY weird that the friend had an answer to that question. I have no idea where any of my friends would go to dump a car, even the ones with checkered pasts. And moving onto armchair psychology, it bothers me how calm and normal Adnan sounds on the phone after serving 15 years of a life sentence for a crime he didn't commit. The fact that he never even thought of the reasons why Jay would frame him is really odd to me. Adnan did it y'all. And I think Jay definitely played a bigger part then he is letting on. Pron on VHS fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Nov 14, 2014 |
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Nov 14, 2014 01:24
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Obviously Jay could have framed Adnan which would make the Leakin Park tower ping and the Nisha call worthless as evidence (easy for Jay to fake, and key parts of the frame job) but I've tried imagining how much effort it would have taken to make all this happen and I dunno Edit: I dunno about faking the Nisha call. Jay would have sit and bullshit a convo for a few min with someone he doesn't know and Nisha would have definitely remembered such a weird call Pron on VHS fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Nov 14, 2014 |
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Nov 14, 2014 01:41
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Pron on VHS posted:
I'm in agreement on the conclusion, but as for those two points: I think it's really hard to figure out what people are saying once they know a crime has been committed, or how someone really would act after resigning themselves to the situation they're in. My gut reaction to the first time Adnan's voice was heard on the show was a feeling that he's hiding something, but later on Ms. Koenig reveals that when she talks to him, she doesn't always trust him, and that puts him on guard. I'm trying not to latch on to specific phrases given how selectively edited the stuff we're hearing is. Unrelated, but I thought I heard her say 'in hospital' on the previous episode. Is that Canadian, or are there parts of the US where the expression is common now?
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Nov 14, 2014 01:50
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Bitchkrieg posted:Like many, I find myself believing Adnan was wrongfully convicted, though not necessarily 'innocent.' This is a very good way of putting it, and I honestly never thought of it that way before. I never really thought about "did he do it?" and "was he wrongfully convicted?" as separate questions before. Did Adnan do it? Probably. Was it proven beyond a reasonable doubt? Hell no.
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Nov 14, 2014 02:01
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Kangra posted:I'm in agreement on the conclusion, but as for those two points: I think it's really hard to figure out what people are saying once they know a crime has been committed, or how someone really would act after resigning themselves to the situation they're in. My gut reaction to the first time Adnan's voice was heard on the show was a feeling that he's hiding something, but later on Ms. Koenig reveals that when she talks to him, she doesn't always trust him, and that puts him on guard. I'm trying not to latch on to specific phrases given how selectively edited the stuff we're hearing is. I know this kind of armchair psychology sucks, and people are different and react to events in unique ways, but I am really bothered by Adnan's prison calls. He sounds so normal and unstressed, and its really odd. And his lack of interest in wondering why Jay framed him is strange, especially since he whispered "pathetic" to Jay during the trial, so clearly he has some issue with Jay's testimony. When Koenig suggests that Jay was jealous of Adnan's close relationship with Stephanie, Adnan is surprised and says he never thought of that. I guess what is weird is that despite being put in jail by an acquaintance for a crime he did not commit, Adnan does not seem to want to discuss Jay's motive for the testimony with Sarah. To me that suggests that perhaps they were both involved in this murder. A truly innocent Adnan would be very curious why Jay did what he did, while a 100% guilty Adnan (meaning Jay really did JUST bury the body and nothing else) would be throwing all kinds of suspicion on Jay to try to get out of jail.
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Nov 14, 2014 02:03
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