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Pron on VHS posted:
I'm in agreement on the conclusion, but as for those two points: I think it's really hard to figure out what people are saying once they know a crime has been committed, or how someone really would act after resigning themselves to the situation they're in. My gut reaction to the first time Adnan's voice was heard on the show was a feeling that he's hiding something, but later on Ms. Koenig reveals that when she talks to him, she doesn't always trust him, and that puts him on guard. I'm trying not to latch on to specific phrases given how selectively edited the stuff we're hearing is. Unrelated, but I thought I heard her say 'in hospital' on the previous episode. Is that Canadian, or are there parts of the US where the expression is common now?
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Nov 14, 2014 01:50
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Jay seems pretty cool except for the whole 'probably an accomplice to a murder' thing.
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Nov 14, 2014 22:39
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Dear Prudence posted:I am now convinced Adnan did it. The version of the story Jay told his friend Chris just is so much more fitting with the time frame and the other accounts. I don't know why Jay wouldn't tell that version to the detectives ... He had a vested interest in not being implicated in the crime. At this point the question is whether the main character of the podcast (Sarah Koenig) will realize this as well and the conclusion ends not with Adnan (or Jay, or anyone else) confessing or having his conviction overturned but with her acknowledging that he's probably not innocent. Her incredulity over 'bad evidence' and understanding how the case was constructed to have the best shot at conviction might be the first step on this road.
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Nov 16, 2014 08:18
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Any possible suspect who is not Jay, Adnan, or some close relation has to explain why they told Jay where the car was. The fact that a young man who'd been in trouble with the law decided to tell the police after a few hours of questioning all about the crime - Adnan did it, Jay assisted before or after the fact. - Jay did it, masterfully framed Adnan and had a cunning plan to give the police an inconsistent story/couldn't figure out how to lie properly. - Someone at least one of them knew did it. Either Adnan decided to take the fall for this person and convinced Jay to frame him, or Jay decided to frame Adnan for what someone else did, and again failed to rehearse his story. Feel silly for having missed that (got him confused with the phone tip), but the 'coming clean' and knowledge of the car are still crucial facts. vvvvv Kangra fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 08:40
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bedpan posted:As to Adnan's group of peers, the twelve people who determine guilt or innocence, there were some problems with them. Three things stand to me from the interviews with the jurors: the idea that 'why would someone say all those things if they hadn't done it' ignores the very existence of false confessions and Jay's relationship with the police; a juror, and possibly the entire jury, not realizing that Jay cut a deal to stay out of prison; and, most significantly to me, the notion that Adnan not taking the stand was somehow a sign of guilt, this was mentioned as being 'huge' (I think was the word) in the jury's deliberations. You're ignoring that Jay also said things to his friends that could not be construed as false confessions. What exactly the jurors considered remarkable about his behavior can't be extrapolated from a single statement by one of them. There's a lot of stuff piling up that this probably was not an ideal fair trial, and maybe even an egregiously unfair one. Yet there's a strong argument that Adnan committed the crime, which raises an interesting philosophical question about whether he 'deserves' to be exonerated legally. I kind of wonder what would have happened if somehow Jay ended up the one convicted and sent to prison for this. It would all look just about as suspicious (save for the motive, which is far weaker for him).
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Nov 21, 2014 01:11
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It was good to hear a longer segment of Adnan talking. Most of the time we only get snippets and they all make him sound weird. Even within the episode, there was a part (pretty sure it was later on and not in a lengthier context) where he kept nervously insisting he had nothing to do with her death. But we really can't tell just from that what questions he'd been asked, how he feels after years of going through similar things, or even what he knows about how the audience perceives him. I do wonder how much of this he lives constantly or whether the process of the show has dredged up memories of that time. I am glad to hear that they finally gave some acknowledgement to the victim's family but holy gently caress Sarah Koenig why did you hire a private investigator to try to get them to talk to you what the hell where you thinking. Did nobody working on this realize that you should never expect the family to be a part of it unless they really really wanted to? Maybe find some way to determine if that is in fact the case out of a sense of journalistic duty, but the amount of apparent effort sounds horrific.
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Nov 21, 2014 07:16
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regulargonzalez posted:Here's a really good write-up showing all the problems with (the prosecution's / Adnan's / Jay's / Jenn's) timelines: http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/s...jenn-and-cathy/ It's a pretty decent listing, but it takes a special kind of crazy to have your reasoning be "Jay called Jenn at 12:47. 12:47 is after noon. Ergo, Jay was never at Jenn's house that afternoon, as he claimed." Something that did come to me on skimming that list. I think it's practically undeniable that Hae was at least abducted, and likely killed, between 2 and 4 pm (and most likely in the middle of that period). If Jay was the murderer, Jenn is lying to cover him. And yet Jenn says that Jay's call to her about Patrick would not have happened as he described it, which is kind of odd if you're lying for someone. Admittedly, the case is full of details like that one. It's probably why a lot of theories for Jay involve a mysterious third party. I am also curious about the bit posted earlier from Rabia about Hae wanting to confront Jay, as it's the only suggestion that Adnan would have expected Jay to be at the school before track practice. It seems as if he was trying to get a ride somewhere, either with Hae or Jay, but later forgot/dropped it.
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Nov 25, 2014 00:44
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SuperiorColliculus posted:
Months? They broke up first in November, when Adnan clearly wasn't taking it well, and were sort of back together by December, which is about when she started dating Don. So only a month or so. I don't get the part about the track alibi. If it comes down to missing a lot of it, then at least you'd want to show up at the end, when people are heading back to the locker room. You can probably find someone who recalls seeing you or talking to you at that point, and can get around the fact that they don't quite remember actually seeing you on the field. Still a risk, but it's going to be a much better alibi than not being there at all. vvvvvvvvv In truth, it is more likely that it wasn't a pre-planned alibi. It seems possible that [if Adnan did the crime and suggested it], he might have said it afterward as something he should do, but it would have been in an agitated post-murder state. One of the reasons I favor Adnan as a suspect is that it has less of a planning requirement, whereas Jay as murderer requires a fair amount of luck and/or premeditation to work. Kangra fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 23:57
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There's a lot of mention of Jay's motive or lack thereof, but I think the bigger problem with Jay as the killer is the lack of opportunity. He either has to kill her at a crowded high school that just let out [and move her body without anyone noticing], in the crowded parking lot [and then drive off in her car without anyone noticing the body], or somehow intercept her while she's driving, or at an elementary school [implausible]. Either that, or convince someone he doesn't know all that well to give him a ride somewhere secluded. Whereas Adnan as the abductor isn't difficult to achieve at all. There's even evidence that he was trying to get in her car. Now, one can come up with a theory whereby Adnan 'abducts' (or leads her away from crowds, to be charitable) but is not the killer. For example: Adnan convinces Hae to have a quickie at Best Buy, calls Jay telling him to pick him up there in about 20 minutes, then when Jay shows up Hae & Jay fight and Jay kills her. But that starts to require a complicated explanation and doesn't square with other facts (if that was the case, why would Adnan be silent on it).
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Dec 2, 2014 16:04
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I actually hope they don't go in the direction of doing another crime story. Especially not one with a less problematic subject. This isn't The Thin Blue Line and I don't think it really tries to be. This season is focused on one central question: "Does Sarah Koenig believe A second season should stick with the same or similar formula -- take one topic, and one chief investigator/host, and have them examine it broadly and slowly.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:29
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That was the story told to his friend Chris. In that version, Adnan called him while he was at a pool hall [this is probably another source for rumors that he may have been more involved with Jenn] and it was at the library. Also the Asia alibi really only covers the state's timeline (which is why it would have significantly aided his case). Part of the requirement for Jay being called a 'mastermind' is that he had to have been framing Adnan from the start. These were stories he was telling people fairly early on. It's not just Chris and Jenn, there is also Neighbor Boy. NB claimed what he said didn't happen, but clearly it either did or he heard about it somehow. My guess is it's the latter before he realized that he'd be an accessory if he confirmed it. And again, she was most likely killed by someone who managed to get her and her car away from the crowded school lot without a scene, killed her without a violent struggle, and failed to leave any physical evidence in her car. I don't know if the police could determine it, but it seems likely she was buried the same day she was killed as well, given the snowstorm.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:03
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bedpan posted:An excellent motive: that either he works with the investigators and testifies against Adnan or goes down for the crime himself. This is ignoring the fact that if Jay's plan was to frame Adnan, he was doing so well before he talked to the police. The most positive evidence is that Jenn talked to the police before Jay did, and she knew how she was killed.
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Dec 14, 2014 16:32
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pwn posted:While it's a relatively long shot, I don't think it's less believable than Adnan being a brilliant sociopath. I'm inclined to give some credence to the Innocence Project woman who's been working with killers and non-killers for 2 or 3 decades. I think the Innocence Project is putting a lot on it because it's pretty much their only shot. They aren't about arguing appeals, they're about reviewing evidence that proves someone innocent. None of the guilty people (if it is anyone already considered) is going to confess, so tying it to somebody like a serial killer is the only thing they have to work with.. Even if, somehow, Jay's DNA were found, it would probably still be difficult to show Adnan is innocent. And Adnan doesn't need to be a brilliant sociopath to have done it (can't be all that brilliant if the judge and other people "saw through" him). Especially not if this wasn't as carefully planned as the state's case would have it.
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Dec 19, 2014 03:05
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There is a TV interview with her, possibly the one actually mentioned as taking place that day, up on Youtube (posted by a local news channel a few weeks back). Link e: This is the same video that appears in the Deadspin story. Kangra fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 00:17
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| # ¿ Apr 27, 2024 16:52 |
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coolskillrex remix posted:No its probably rooted in how normal Adnan sounds (and his classmates thought he was very normal too), yet was able to snap and do something so completely savage to a girl he claimed to love. Its one thing for the weird brooding kid to do that, its another for a kid who plays football and is on track and is smart and smokes pot all the time. Likable football players who are also track athletes have never snapped and killed their
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Feb 10, 2015 06:51
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