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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Hunt11 posted:

I feel like once villains are aware of the risk then they will be a lot more careful about speaking.

A villain in this manga being unable to monologue for hours? They'd defeat themselves.

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Rhonne posted:

I wonder how impressive a street magician really is in an age of super powers?

I assume still pretty impressive. It involves (assuming you're not cheating with a quirk) slight of hand and misdirection and that doesn't become less impressive just because a dude can fly. If the answer is "it's a Quirk" then yeah it isn't very fun but someone doing that kind of stuff without a Quirk will still have the same "how the gently caress did they do that?" thing modern magicians do.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Momo's quirk is incredibly powerful but that doesn't necessarily mean she understands its limits, how best to use it, or when best to use certain things. That's actually the irony of a lot of quirks: The most unique and diverse they are, the harder it is to really find out what they can do. Look at the guy from Vigilantes who actually has a pretty rockass power that never really became clear until he spent a ton of time pushing his limits, or the entire My Villain arc where it became clear most of these guys can do a *lot* more than they think, they just had no reason to.

Momo can theoretically do a lot of things but that doesn't help much if she doesn't focus on getting really good at *some* things. Having too diverse a Quirk seems to cause that problem as the characters who have really good well-rounded abilities rarely seem to use them as well as someone who can do one specific thing REALLY well.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



PMush Perfect posted:

That would be a neat callback to how Kamui Woods was the first hero that Deku ever emulated on-screen.

Edit: Something related that I've been thinking about is that if Deku needs a cover for why he apparently has a new, unrelated quirk is that those tentacles running through his muscles are WHY he has super strength. Like Tokoyami's Black Body special move, just internal instead of external.

Honestly they can just say "my Quirk is that I randomly develop new Quirks" and it'd basically be accurate. Even would explain why he didn't have a Quirk when he was younger.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



SgtSteel91 posted:

That’s really cool and I still hope for a MHA x Vigilantes one-shot

Obviously the entire cast of Vigilantes was killed before current MHA

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Blaze Dragon posted:

That doesn't make sense, we know Aizawa and company are alive.

We uhh...we have enough reasons to believe Shirakumo isn't though. At the very least, something bad will happen to him. This arc is going to end up depressing, isn't it?

Sorry I meant the main cast, not the cameo heroes.

I'm only half-joking, I genuinely expect them to get rightly hosed up at some point.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I saw someone recently phrase it as "Spider-Man has the powers needed to win every fight" and it's pretty much true. While he isn't top-tier in every field he's absurdly strong, absurdly fast, absurdly durable and has precognition. In Quirk terms he basically has an entire suite of skills any one of which would make him a top tier hero.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Oct 6, 2019

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I think multi-quirks are a really really boring concept to be honest. One of the most appealing things about MHA to me was the idea that everyone has one skill of varying quality and they develop by figuring out how to make that skill work for them. "I can pull new skills out of my rear end" like Deku and AFO have just bore the hell out of me. I don't mind quirks that can develop to do more things (like Vigilantes does or like what happened in the MVA arc) but just the multi-quirk thing is boooooring.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I assume they make a point of choosing people who have quirks that can make big impressive shows.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Vinylshadow posted:

Dodging enemies much larger than he is, and casually talking while doing so...and he's named Crawler

...nah, nothing to interpret there, I'm sure

He's named Cruller, get it right.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Blockhouse posted:

It's totally not just that. Toriyama was an expert at flow from panel to panel, to make sure that your eyes naturally followed the point-of-action from one to the next. There was never any confusion about what was happening or how someone was hitting someone else. Calling it an accident is really underselling how much skill with framing a comic panel that takes and how many modern manga artists, like Horikoshi (and hell even Eiichiro Oda sometimes) struggle with the concept.

Yeah. Say what you want about Toriyama but he genuinely is a master of the craft. Dragonball and onward read absurdly well and a big part of that is just *how* good his composition is. There's nothing accidental about it, he knows exactly what he's doing.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I think it's dumb too but it is pretty odd that Deku is the one person in the entire world without a Quirk besides one character in Vigilante who used to have a Quirk.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



thetoughestbean posted:

All Might doesnít naturally have a Quirk. Itís not really weird that people without a Quirk arenít common in a series that focuses on professional superheroes

Eh, it's still pretty unusual to be Quirkless in the series. It's treated as pretty drat abnormal and so far we've only seen two people in the entire series who were Quirkless, even counting Vigilantes which is less about Professional Superheroing.

IIRC it's also treated as particularly unusual that Deku was quirkless despite both his parents having Quirks.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Junpei posted:

Remember Melissa Shield from the first movie? She was Quirkless too.

Yeah but... anime movies.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Onmi posted:

So the current crazy theory is that if Deku had a quirk, it was Super Regeneration. Something that wouldn't be visually distinguishable to the normal person and very difficult to ever figure out unless like... Deku broke something. The reason people are behind this is that the doc mentioned that, if they'd had Super Regeneration earlier, AFO might not have been FUBARd

Super Regeneration is probably the only Quirk I can really feel like is something "I will injure myself at EVERY CHANCE" Deku would have.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



TheKingofSprings posted:

Iím a little confused about the relative ages of everyone involved here, I know Koichiís 21 but idk about anyone else.

The lazy writing resolution here is probably that Koichi ends up with Pop, but he and Makoto seem like a pretty good fit so I hope things go in that direction instead. Iím so glad characters are just being up front and talking about it, Vigilantes writing is just so good compared to everything else (looking at you MHA mainline and Shokugeki!).

I didnít say anything about it during the recent chapter where it was relevant, but Horikoshi either needs to move things forward between Ochako and Deku or drop it instead of just periodically including teases for 100 chapters. Itís been over 250 chapters, itís getting silly!

Ochako isn't popular enough.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



TheKingofSprings posted:

Sheís top 10 in the manga right now despite the fujoshi bloc!

Sorry, Deku is going to end up with a frog. It's the rules.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



In a shocking and somewhat confusing twist Mirio's Quirk will instead go to All Might.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



They will kill everyone except Bakugo, including Deku. With his dying breath Deku will give OfA to Bakugo and we'll start the true series.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



On one hand I agree on the other hand acting like Americans don't regularly lionize their own war criminals, slave owners, rapists, and other horrific people is pretty ridiculous, let alone using them in negative fashion.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Flesnolk posted:

1) Horikoshi is drawing criticism from Chinese and Korean fans for this.
2) The whole "uwu America does bad things too so Americans can't criticise bad things anyone else does" shtick is extremely tiresome.

No, but when the Americans are wringing their hands and wondering how such a thing could happen and it's not at ALL like America then it becomes dumb.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Funky Valentine posted:

What the gently caress does this matter.

Because trying to act like it's not an ongoing and serious issue with superhero comics that they make incredibly tasteless references to real-world atrocities (many of those committed by America) is weird, as is trying to defend it by going "no see it's different from (x)" is ridiculous. It was an extremely bad decision that is entirely in-tone with the things MHA is based on. The fact that both of those things can be true is relevant to discussing what the problem is and why it may have happened beyond 'welp, turns out the author is actually a war criminal apologist.'

It is, in fact, a lot like superhero comics where we loved (and still love) to go to real world things as easy markers for villainhood. These range from serial killers to genuine atrocities and it is genuinely pretty lovely. This deserves serious criticism and any fans who are angry enough to drop the series over it are completely justified, but let's not pretend like it's different from American comics in any way.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I think people are assuming that because Deku's path to victory isn't beating Shigaraki but saving him. Like that's his entire thing that his end goal isn't to beat people but to help them.

Shigaraki is like the next level up from Eri. A kid with a dangerous quirk who has spent his entire life being manipulated and abused by a terrible villain who specifically wanted to make him into a villain to gently caress with All-Might. It's a much harder road to get through to him but that's kind of the point. Deku doesn't need to SMASH Shigaraki, he needs to save him from All For One's influence.

(Even odds if Shigaraki ends up dying in the process or somehow lives and gets put into a cell where Deku visits him.)


I mean he could be the final villain and the series is just about Deku getting strong enough to beat him but that feels off for Deku's character arc.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Jesus. Even if Pop gets rescued her eye is toast, right?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Deku needs to lose his arm and get it replaced by a mechanical arm designed to channel the force of OFA but if he uses it too much it breaks.

Also he needs a sword that he can rev up.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



TheKingofSprings posted:

Is the villain a good villain or bad villain if theyíre doing villainy so Mirko will murder them with her thighs

Trying to force someone to participate against their will in your sexual fetishes is a bad thing.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



"Let's kill off a bunch of side characters to show THINGS HAVE GOTTEN REAL" is a bit too uncomfortable DC/Marvel for me even in this heavily DC/Marvel inspired manga series.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



The fights are often the least interesting point of MHA.

Which is why Vigilantes is better than the main series.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Twice is at once sympathetic for his history and the action he's taken and was literally working to help a mass murder take place. Both can co-exist.

Mystic Mongol posted:

We never see government or society efforts to rehabilitate villains.

We see this pretty regularly in Vigilantes actually.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Vigilanties is helped tremendously by having a main character with a personality and a supporting cast that isn't overshadowed so often.

Could have done without the "We make the guys who literally attempted to gang rape a teenage girl and broadcast it on the internet into good guys" thing though.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Blueberry Pancakes posted:

Yeah, that still makes me wonder what the gently caress. Considering the discourse around Bakugo and Endeavor, I can only wonder how the anime crowd would react to this.

I assume it's one of those "the first (x) chapters of a manga don't really establish what the rest of the manga will be like" thing but still. I would only hope a anime adaptation would tone it down a bit. It's probably the hardest hurdle to overcome to recommend Vigilantes to someone who likes MHA because the first couple of chapters come across like "This is my Grimdark MHA Fanfic with rape and murder and scantly clad teenage girls and vigilantes" instead of what the rest of the manga is about which is casual Quirk society. (Though still + scantly clad teenage girls admittedly.)

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Larryb posted:

Speaking of, could a Vigilantes anime even conceivably run in the same block as MHA without massive edits? Even by Japanese censorship standards it seems a little less kid friendly than the main series (though even that gets a bit dark at times), especially early on

I think so to be honest. It's violent but a lot of the violence is intentionally obscured. It's why everyone has hair over the Queen Bee Eye and such. Honestly I suspect a bigger problem might be all the drat smoking.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I think it's also worth noting that the Pro Heroes are not like the Justice League and called out only for world-danger threats. The main series has kind of devolved into that but they spend a lot of their time responding to smaller situation. It's part of why they have whole agencies and sidekicks and such. "There is a rogue quirk user who is resisting arrest in connection with information on two extremely dangerous bombing attempts" is exactly the sort of thing they normally handled.We're used to seeing one of them showing up being a Big loving Deal because the main series is only Big loving Deals at this point but being a Top 10 also means you're handling a whole lot of 'lesser' crimes too.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Mar 13, 2021

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Mystic Mongol posted:

That explains Edgeshot, certainly. Best Jeanist, Ingenium, and Eraserhead really should know better.

It seems pretty clear they want to actually help him avoid getting into a worse situation considering all three of them know he's saved a whole lot of lives on more than one occasion.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



GimmickMan posted:

I guess I'm the minority but I think Vigilantes is just... Okay? Like it's not bad but the main story has higher highs and lower lows imo. I don't think anything in Vigilantes is on the level of, say, Dabi's gravedancing, United States of Smash, Deku vs Todoroki or the entirety of MVA. Yeah sure the arcs are long and some are kind of bad (usually the ones where Hori is struggling to put out like 12 pages a week) but I'll take a thousand joint training arcs if the payoff is as good as the recent war arc.

I guess it depends on what you're looking for. I find the fact that the major challenges aren't a straight-up fight but like "can I hold this collapsing tower up while under attack" or "How do I save this person from a terrible fate" and the fact that the protagonist's powers are almost all mobility-based with shooty-go-blam as his 'biggest' gun means that even when he gets the required shonen power up of friendship it comes in the form of being able to heroically fly for brief periods of time rather than punch better.

I would read the Captain Celebrity arc over the recent War arc every time and I liked the war arc.

(I also admit that I find Deku to just be a total black hole of a protagonist and him getting All The Superpowers has only made him less interesting.)

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Nephthys posted:

No, I feel entirely the same way, except that I don't agree that it has higher highs. The best moments in MHA prime blow those in the spin off completely out of the water. Vigilantes is a lot less high-stakes which I understand appeals to some people but I really do feel like it is just fairly mediocre. It's just not a very dramatic series and thats part of what holds it back for me. Knuckdusters fight with his daughter is cut up between Pop holding a concert. This chapter was just Koichi running away and Best Jeanist hamming it up. Koichi didn't really have to even exert himself much to escape either so it wasn't really tense at all unlike say, basically every Deku fight ever.


Well except for the entire Todoroki saga. And Bakugo/Deku. And Shigaraki. And Twice. And Toga. And Eri. And really MHA is like 50% intimate personal drama actually now that I think about it. The main character is in tears basically all the time for a reason.

I don't think being smaller in scale makes it less dramatic. If anything it emphasizes how smaller scale can make the stakes feel bigger than The Entire World Is Going To Die. MHA absolutely has elements of that in the mainline but they've gradually faded into the background as the series progresses. It's still there but the big epic fights from the recent War arc don't hit me remotely as hard as people fighting that hard to rescue Eri. It's bigger and flashier but "we made Eri smile" was a bigger impact than almost anything that happened in the war arc except for the entire Twice/Toga/Hawks drama which genuinely hit hard.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Nephthys posted:

Ochako crying on the phone to her parents after losing affected me more than anything in all of Vigilantes alone. And that's not even a particularly stand out plot compared to Deku saving Kota, Eri smiling or Shigaraki's backstory.

And sorry to keep complaining but man does Vigilantes undercut any potential for pathos all the friggin time. I'd care more about Pop if 50% of her character wasn't being half naked all the time and 50% being a total dick to Koichi. I'd care more about Captain Celebrity if he wasn't introduced by trying to cheat on his wife with a girl in college. I'd care more about Koichi unlocking his quirks potential if it wasn't based around his mother slapping him his whole life. I'd care more about the hooligan gang if they weren't attempted rapists. Also it made Midnight into basically a sex offender who seemingly became a teacher to bang underaged kids which is um, unnecessary to say the least.

I guess I'm not sure how that undercuts drama in Vigilantes and not in MHA. Almost every thing there either has a parallel in MHA or is directly from it. (Vigilantes didn't invent that poo poo. Midnight got touchy and flirty with students in the main series.) I absolutely agree about the rapist thing but MHA had Bakugo basically trying to murder Deku in the first chapter. In both cases the story just went "um yeah that was... bad so just pretend it was something different" which is not my favorite solution but so it goes. I don't like Pop's costume much but it ain't like MHA mainline is better. (Looking at you Momo.)

Both series have Issues but still. Captain Celebrity at least was retconned to "Actually is so stupid he doesn't realize how what he's doing is coming across the wrong way" which is a bit silly but frames him as someone who genuinely loves his wife as opposed to say Nighteye's Tickle Torture which never actually got retconned at all.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



MonsterEnvy posted:

To be somewhat fair to them, they were on Trigger and thus had very little inhibition control during that time.

They weren't on Trigger at that point. They were infected with it later.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Doctor_Fruitbat posted:

That's a bit of a weird way of stating things. Fame turns him into a narcissistic douchebag with no real care for anyone but himself, but having the kids in his charge reminds him why he became a hero and culminates with him tanking a blast to protect the three girls with no thought for his own safety because he's a changed man.

It's not a retcon, it's a pretty standard redemption story where someone realises the damage they are doing, changes for the better and does something genuinely selfless that demonstrates that change. And then we get the cool Sky Egg stuff, as a treat, and also to show his newfound commitment driving him to keep going.

In one of the final chapters they reveal that almost all the lawsuits against him were dropped because they were meritless/traps and they actively show both the 'bad' images and then shots of him looking confused and bewildered.

Nephthys posted:

It's a gross exaggeration to equate Bakugo telling someone to 'KYS' to a murder attempt. He's a dumb kid saying something cruel. It's not even as bad as what actual RL bullies do and even his friends say he was being unusually harsh. You can't compare it to a sexual assault attempt. Midnight was innocently flirty as part of her persona, but Vigilantes gave her a speech about giving handjobs to teenagers. There's a huge difference there. And at least Momo has an attempt at a character arc and pro-active plot integration. Pop's usual contribution to the plot is to either shake her butt a lot, be a prick for no reason or to get in danger and need to be saved. Compared to the girls in the main series she's absolutely the 'useless love interest' character and isn't particularly likeable imo.

Bakugo bullies Deku significantly worse than that even in the first chapter. Even the author has said they went to far with them. And no, Midnight is just as flirty and uncomfortable there. She makes comments all the time and the teacher fight she against The Worst Character has her going full-on in that.

The last part is like actively untrue considering the series spends a huge chunk of time on Pop's character development. It is just focused on her opening up and being willing to work with others, and she's pretty frequently helping out during the vigilante stuff. (Just not like fighting because the goal there isn't fighting.) She's probably more actively involved than most of the MHA female cast considering she doesn't have to share screentime and it's been pretty blunt that everyone working on MHA cares more about Sexy Fighting Bunny then the rest of the female cast put together.

Fabricated posted:

Probably the weirdest thing that Vigilantes does for comedy is that basically every mook-tier villain that shows up and isn't "generic rampaging guy" for Koichi to comically fight, is a literal pervert. Raoh but using phantom hands to grope women, a serial flasher, 3 rollerskating guys who steal everyones underwear (Koichi literally saying he doesn't kinkshame is a good joke though), etc.

I am not super fond of that myself though I suppose in a non-UA sense the majority of Quirk Crimes are going to be people being creepy or assholes rather than people dissolving each other into dust.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Mar 14, 2021

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Ytlaya posted:

I feel like the issue is that once you've crossed the lines Shigaraki has, "saving him" basically = "killing him" because any decent person would want to kill themselves if they were responsible for the stuff he's done.

So basically "Shigaraki being saved and alive" is sort of an oxymoron.


You're not thinking with Shonen Logic. You can kill literally billions of people and get to be a wacky dude who dances at bingo games.

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