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Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Omnicrom posted:

I see someone is using a word without knowing what it means.
I had a professor who used it like that so I'm willing to let it go... Not willing to let it go that he's talking out of his rear end on the substance of his claim though.


:v: "Powers just have mechanics and no real explanation in the game world."
:colbert: *Posts several powers and their explanations in the game worlds.*
:v: "Well that doesn't really count because you see"

Maxwell Lord posted:

Shit_that_didnt_happen_even_in_a_game.txt
That would have been a perfectly serviceable plan if they'd just had the 'concubine' stab the villain. Why an anal-dwelling butt-halfling? Unless your goal was to be gross as hell... it's 4chan of course that was their goal, never mind.

Chaltab fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Dec 4, 2014

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Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Not selling his lovely card game: just like not baking cakes for gay people. :psyduck:

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
Somehow I don't think Evil Hat, whose flagship product is an OGL pay what you like, is terribly paranoid about shutting down competition. Why is it that any time someone privately tells assholes to peddle their assholewares elsewhere, the response is conspiracy theories? Does being a jerk also make you stupid?

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Error 404 posted:

Oh wow I hope there's screencaps.
The thread's still there in their Reviews subforum.

Pundit, regarding the blog Your Dungeon is Suck posted:

No, its a hate-blog created by an SA-Goon, usually filled with 4chan-levels of profanity and adolescent dirty-jokes, that attacks OSR games and game designers. They have for a long time had a hate-on for Zak, Raggi, and myself in roughly that order (but they often branch out to attack other OSR designers).

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

FMguru posted:

To be fair, YDIS is a terrible website.
Well yeah but calling it a hate-blog is just :ironicat: as hell given Pundit's ongoing war with eastasia The Forge/Storygamers/Swine.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

gradenko_2000 posted:

What is “Old School” Play?
There are two major styles of roleplaying games. The first (and older) style says “Here is the situation. Pretend you are there as your character, what do you want to do?” This style has been superseded over the years with a style that says “Here is the situation. Based on your character's stats, abilities, skills, etc. as listed on his character sheet and your knowledge of the many detailed rules of the game, what is the best way to use your character’s skills and abilities and the rules to solve the situation?” Old school play strongly favors the first style and frowns on too much of the second.

Here are some major points where old school play is different:
Heroic, not Superheroic
Achievement, not Advancement
No Skills
Limited Magic Items
No Assumption of "Game Balance"
It's Not All About Combat
Reality/Common Sense Trumps Rules
Forget "Rules Mastery"
No Script Immunity
The thing is, a lot of that is blatantly disingenuous. Old school games have fewer defined skills, but they still have rolls to succede or fail skill-based challenges. The games may not be very well-balanced, but it's blatantly false to assert that Gygax and Co weren't *trying* to make them so. And it's easy to assert that you don't have to worry about 'rules mastery' in a game whose rules you've been using for years. I don't even know what they mean by 'Script Immunity'.

That's not to say that OSR is wrong or bad, just that Old School and New School is not a clear cut distinction and nothing to be snobby about.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
From the Paizo forums

quote:

Here I agree with you. One of the unfortunate elements of 4E is that their is this constant number escalation that serves no real purpose but is so entwined into the system that you can't really get rid of it.

The most obvious example is in the skill DCs. They go up by 1/2 per level and the recommended DC by level chart does pretty much the same thing. As I mention above I go so far as to essentially chase the PCs with the recommended by level DC ratings in order to keep them bounded as mere mortals for as long as possible. This simply means that, on average, the DC to pole vault over a counter rises at about 1/2 a point per level right along with my PCs increases. Its pretty much always about the same target number. That is a bunch of calculations that really don't need to be in the game. If it was not so built into the system I'd rather that PCs skills don't rise except when they boost their stats or if they decide to actually pick up Skill Focus or some such. In this manner one could have set DCs that, very slowly, get ever easier so that by 16th level or what not Pole Vaulting over counters is simply trivial.
That is not how skill DCs work! Also unless you're a wingless pixie why would you need a pole to vault over a counter?

edit; vvvv I don't really think it's fair to call him a PF grog, he's currently running a 4E campaign. I'm just laughing how grog memes about 4E were so ubiquitous that even fans of the game sometimes believe in them.

Chaltab fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Dec 8, 2014

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Plague of Hats posted:

"If they don't want these people as their customers, they don't have to stock for them."

"If they don't want to bake cakes for gay weddings, they don't have to."

The primary feature of social justice is hypocrisy.
Desbo used that exact same comparison on his twitter; that's either him or a sycophant follower.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Slimnoid posted:

Currently smoking: moldy grass clippings rolled in dogshit.
It can't possibly be that anyone just legitimately doesn't want to be associated with an internet hate group. Always a damned consipiracy with these people. Pundit, examine what you're smoking more carefully because I think it's rotting your brain.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Rulebook Heavily posted:

He uses it to feel superior to other people who play RPGs, which is the relevant/funny part.
Holy poo poo, I'd seen the first part of that post and thought he was talking about 'if your conceit is that occult magic is real, then this is how you do it' which is pretentious enough.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
The script bot is still saying more true things than Desbo.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
What does he even care what "all we people" say about him in the first place, geez. You say crazy poo poo on the internet, someone's going to point out that it's crazy. As funny as this is I wonder if the paywall on TradGames should go back up for Pundowski's ease of mind.

Slimnoid posted:

The part in parenthesis is pure :ironicat:
Not sure how it's ironic. It's stupid as hell, but entirely consistent with his belief that everyone against him is him is really a socialist commie hippie marxist collectivist porcine pseudo-activist who just PRETENDS to like tabletop games.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

moths posted:

(*Female "friends" whose careers involve being paid to have sex with him on film.)
At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Zak (I'm not) I REALLY don't think that's relevant at all to LatwPIAT's point.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

LatwPIAT posted:

I honestly believe the women in question are his friends. He keeps talking about how he plays RPGs with women and his female friends, and how he bases his conclusions on their comments. He mentions them in his blog, and some of said friends have defended Zak against accusations of sexism (or whatever it was) on their blogs again. The reason I mentioned his female friends is because he seems to mention them in a way that's implicitly "my X friends don't think it's Xist" whenever someone brings up the subject of sexism in RPGs, and how - as Zak's friends - their evaluation of his character and/or defense of his statements doesn't actually make what he said not sexist (or whatever the topic was).
Exactly, this.

some grog posted:

So. Assuming that 5E D&D is an even worse of a gently caress-up edition than 4E D&D (which looks likely at this point) and also assuming that Hasbro decides to front the money or farm out the IP rights for another D&D edition (which is much less certain), what are the odds that 6E D&D is going to be a 3E D&D rehash?

Personally, I'd say that the odds are... well, while not favorable it's a plausible possibility. For a few reasons.

It lets the game designers hustle product out of the door very quickly. Even a Mike Mearls design team could push out this version of 6E D&D in a half of a year. A halfway competent one could do it in four months.
It undercuts Pathfinder. Who, barring massive incompetence on Paizo's part of the rise of some TTRPG out of the blue, are going to be 6E D&D's biggest competitor.
It allows the design team to rehash old 3E D&D product. When 3.5E came out, a ton of 'new' sourcebooks were just adaptations of 3.0E material. I don't particularly approve, but it'll be like, what, a 10-15 year gap? Most people aren't going to revolt at new and improved versions of the Swashbuckler or Bladesinger.
Related to the above point, it allows the design team to compile the 'best of' old 3E D&D content. 3E had a lot of hit and misses, but imagine a 3E PHB that had right from the gate a Warblade [Fighter], Warlock, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler [Rogue], Psychic Warrior [Monk] and Psion (I know, I know), Totemist [Ranger], and Soulborn. The crappy classes like Barbarian and Sorcerer can just be tucked away as optional NPC classes. Imagine if instead of having elf/half-elf/gnome/halfling/human/elf/half-orc/dwarf, you also had goliaths, warforged, dhampirs, thri-kreen, catfolk, and drow.
It lets them flog the 'backwards compatibility' horse. Not that I expect or even want a 6E D&D to be backwards compatible with 3E D&D, but as Pathfinder has shown it's a good way to cajole people into taking a risk on your project. And you don't even have to deliver; you can just feign amnesia on this point when people are all 'hey, how do I adapt my Ur-Priest to this edition?'
The problems of 3E D&D are pretty well-known at this point. A lot of them are unable to be fixed (or at least appear to be fixed) without a massive restructuring of the underlying assumptions of the game, like monster advancement or open multiclassing. Some of the problems can be fixed but require someone to take a math hammer to it, like wealth-by-level or the dropoff of AC. And some of the problems can be fixed with just a couple more lines relevant to the applicable section like with illusions and BAB/Base Defense Bonus/Save Bonuses. I expect a lot of problems to get quick-fixes that don't complete solve the problems but extend the playability of the game for a few more levels. If the game was playable until level 16 out of 20 (instead of 9-12 out of 20) without going the 4E NERF loving EVERYTHING route I'd call that a massive success.
A massive success: making a game that's literally just my favorite edition again.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
D&D has been declared dead before. It literally went bankrupt in 1997, and the IP got bought up by Wizards of the Coast. The company may insist on hiring gamers they know from around the Seattle area, but that same short sightedness will also keep them from actually folding up D&D's tent.

As long as the WotC branch still makes money (which as long as they can keep making Magic sets with good mechanics or good art, seems assured), and it still has D&D fans in it, they won't be reporting failure of the branch to the higher ups and won't cut D&D loose.

There will be a sixth edition. And probably in not very long. Although since 5th edition is not called "fifth edition" they might call the edition after next "5th edition." D&DN is also not going 3 years until it's N.5 revision. 4th edition got it after 2 years, D&DN is getting it 18 months into the cycle. D&DN is hitting the ground with comparatively very little buzz, so they won't even get a honeymoon period like how 4th edition got the biggest first week sales of any edition of D&D. It's going to be DOA, and since the actual rules are sloppy warmed over Mike Mearls horse poo poo, it's not going to get positive word of mouth. They are going to go back to what they were doing in 2010 when they realized that 4th edition was an unpolishable turd: completely overhaul the game every six months and hold mass firings twice a year as people lost the game and were forced to take responsibility for each failure.

So we can look forward to a radical re-imagining of D&DN on the order of Essentials or 3.5 being worked on almost as soon as D&DN actually gets on the shelves. And as soon as that gets on the shelves and also fails, we can look forward to someone working on a newer new edition.

***

Bolding mine.

Because gently caress.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

moths posted:

Hell, there were a lot of nerds who got their THANK JESUS FOR 5E fluff pieces into real news. (Ok, I'm generous in applying that label to CNN.)
The comments are surprisingly civil but there has to be That One Guy.

quote:

New business model: come out with a new edition every 5 years making all previous books obsolete.
Customers: no thank you.

Making new products: the sure sign of a failed business model.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Rulebook Heavily posted:

Also aaa why d20 for Fire Emblem of all things?

Lightning Lord posted:

This reminds me of when a guy I used to know was making Dragon Ball Z d20 and had obtuse rules for charging your aura, new spells called "Energy Beam, Generic" and Saiyan and Namekian races with +5 ECL and poo poo like that. So I told him about games like Shonen Final Burst and Tenra Bansho Zero and hell, if he wanted to stick to d20 he could just play around with Mutants and Masterminds. He absolutely blew up at me, he was loving livid that I would even suggest that.
Don't you people know that d20 is a perfect world-simulator that has physics/rules* that can be used to run literally anything?

*As if there's a difference there amirite

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Azran posted:

I mean yes, some FE games work like this. I'm not criticizing the video games, I really like them. I'm just :psyduck: about going into this detail with loving d20. Why not use d100?
The problem is trying to mimic a system designed for a computer Strategy-RPG at all. There's a reason that tabletop games tend to pick one or the other. A Fire Emblem RPG would be better off just using the basic mechanics of D&D or Dungeon World (for example) and laying the rock-paper-scissors nature of FE combat over top of that.

quote:

It can be hard to remember the big fat guy is playing a small sexy woman and vice versa
if play is public, this, too, can cause major issues with non-gamers.
There were jokes about that in some indie movie about RPGers I saw, but honestly, has anyone EVER seen this happen in reality, just repeatedly forgetting the gender of a player character?


Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

Of course, you could go weird with the bases, and frankly having lopsided stats is probably for the best since you can't really play with growths. The average 320% total these rolls produce could be a lot more interesting to use if you could distribute them more freely, but really, why are the random growths randomly determined?
Because the first Fire Emblem games came out when pretty much all RPG design was a Cargo Cult of TSR D&D and in TSR D&D you roll for poo poo!

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

quote:

Today, however, the game (specifically pathfinder, 4E and 5E) are almost completely gamist. Each of the games plays lip service to the idea and concepts of role playing, but in fact, their emphasis and focus is on rolling dice and comparing or adding stats. In this sense, modern D&D isn't so much 50% roleplaying, but rather mostly a hybrid somewhere between a board game and a wargame with role playing as the frosting on the cake.
Wait what? One of the few good points about 5E is that it has more overt focus on roleplaying than pretty much any previous edition.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

30.5 Days posted:

Wait, isn't the "simulationist" aspect of 3E what people hated was removed in 4E? I thought grogs were all about "simulationist" in D&D, because 4th ed is perhaps the purest "gamist" TTRPG ever created and they hated it.
That's 3E grogs. That's Justin Alexander and many of those from TheGamingDen.

Pundit is a different sort of nut. He's the one who thinks (claims to think?) that the Forge idea of 'gamist/narrativist/simulationist' is not just an overly reductive and prescriptive way of thinking of game design, but an actual attempt by Outside Agitators who Hate D&D to destroy the hobby for nefarious reasons I'm still not quire clear on after four years of reading this guy's bullshit.

Edit: it has something to do with his Neoreactionary politics and a brain-cell-destroying fear of 'Cultural Marxism' whatever the hell that means.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

ProfessorCirno posted:

Open bigotry is growing in popularity, and with it returns open antisemitism. You can decide whether this inspired stuff like South Park, or if South Park is inspiring the rise in antisemitism, or if they're just entwined together.
That doesn't even make sense, Cartman is the only antisemitic character and he's a whiny entitled brat...

Actually never mind it makes perfect sense that these people identify with Cartman.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

ProfessorCirno posted:

Cartman is consistently portrayed as the funny one you're meant to laugh with and like the most. He is not in any sense made into a negative "don't do this" character
Uh... what? He's made into that all the loving time.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Libertad! posted:

That guy once posted this on rpg.net, but then edited the post to a single "x, please delete" out of shame.

Edit: no wait I'm wrong. There was another disturbing erotic Hickman post on rpg.net which circulated about two years ago. I'm betting my money it's the same dude with another username.
Yeah I was thinking 'I've read this before, haven't I? But 5E wasn't out then so...'

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Mors Rattus posted:

And now, something lighter.

Thread title: Why have the Lupine failed to destroy all Vampires?
...that's actually not a bad question. I've played Bloodlines and those fuzzy bastards are hard to kill.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

clockworkjoe posted:

Someone posted a reasonable article entitled "Five Destructive Myths Perpetuated by Roleplaying Games" http://mythcreants.com/blog/five-destructive-myths-perpetuated-by-roleplaying-games/
No that article is actually pretty bad because it implies that gamers are literal imbeciles who can't distinguish reality from fiction and game mechanics.

I mean that's true for some people, but those are exactly the people this thread exists to mock.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Otisburg posted:

Man this Winter Palace dungeon is a real slog, I don't buy the dungeon ecology at all like what's feeding all the weird bourgeoisie monsters that just hang out here?
Maybe they feed on Halla statues.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Otisburg posted:

If I were to hazard a guess, because these people are so broken that criticism of the bad, gross Japanese cartoons they enjoy is indistinguishable from personal attacks, because they're of that stripe of weirdo fandom where the media they consume becomes their ~identity.~
I'm guessing they're citing it as 'evidence' that wundergeek is a sex-negative prude who hates Zak and Mandy for doing porn. She critized Zak's elfgames and therefore she must be destroyed regardless of whether the smear has any basis in reality.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Antivehicular posted:

Wait, Zak got his dumb rear end permabanned defending that? Of all the hills I expected this guy to die on, a nonsensical monster who is literally as sex-negative as possible (sex robots that give birth to monsters that will explicitly kill the filthy sexhaver who "fathered" them)? Is this dude operating on a sixth-grade level where anything that even alludes to the concept of sex is automatically erotic?
His logic and reasoning skills certainly peak at that level so probably. Or more likely he doesn't really care about sex positivity and simply uses it as a buzzword to attack everyone who doesn't worship him.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

quote:

Yeah I've kind of taken it for granted at this point that binomial nomenclature is the sure sign of thematic bankruptcy. If you can't come up with a single word, or a compound word that's already in the dictionary, then you just might not be dealing with an idea that bears the weight of a core class. There's a broader exception at the prestige-class level of specificity, but mostly this is a category of names which are only appropriate for the MTG cards that people just leave on the table when they're finished with a draft.

Top of my lexical shitlist: "Duskblade." What the gently caress does that even mean?
Antlions, Tigersharks, and Owlbears, oh my!

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Majuju posted:

(it took me loving forever to decrypt that acronym)
The edition that must not be named? That doesn't really narrow it down any considering some grogs hate every edition that isn't their highly idiosyncratic interpretation of the edition they played when they were twelve favorite, Oh this was posted in 2006 so that rules out 4th and Next.

On the other hand we know full well what edition this man hates.

quote:

Healing Surges aren't overpowered, they are retarded. It is literally impossible to do anyone enough damage at one time to leave them with any injury at all the next day. People don't object to the fact that characters will never have injuries carry over to the next day because they have healing wands or healing potions or whatever the gently caress, but they object to the fact that it is literally impossible for there to be a situation where you get injured and don't immediately heal all wounds between scenes like a cartoon character. That offends people, and they are right to be offended. That is anti-immersive bullshit.

-Frank

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
But, as you point out earlier, that distinction is both vague (many people skirt the line) and has no bearing on what martial actually means, only by misapplying the word's context do we reach this definition.

Nor does martial or caster provide any information about your role in combat. At the very minimum a martial character can be damage, tanking, or control potentially, while a caster could be damage, control, or support.

As far as archetypes go, the lines are not very clear. You have someone whose ability is based on skill at arms. Another might draw on abilities they were born with, such as from being a demigod or a sorcerer. One might have other supernatural elements that fuel them, such as a lycanthrope, while another draws power from gods, or their faith, or the earth itself. Trying to claim there are three archetypes is quite stupid, one of the ones you listed is literally "everything else", making such a categorization completely useless.

Martial is not a counterpoint to caster. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor does having one detract form the other's relevance. That word is mundane, which is not the same as martial at all. People dislike using mundane, because the fact is it highlights the flaw in their argument "I want to have impossible supernatural abilities, but still be a mundane non supernatural being". It's infuriating to see, and trying to misuse and abuse the term martial is a big part of that.

---
It's infuriating that people who play fighters want to do neat things like wizards.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Bob Quixote posted:

Just letting anyone be able to use/learn arcane magic, but have Wizards do it better, would probably be a quick solution to the whole problem since the Fighters whole deal has always been "better at hitting stuff than everyone else" but that didn't keep the other classes from attacking in combat.
That's a workable solution, but it goes back to asking what kind of game you're designing. That's the problem with D&D; because it came first, it didn't have anyone to learn from, and mistakes were made along the way. D&D is nominally class based, if not always in practice. But is that what D&D not only is but should be? Or is it an artifact left over from the wargaming roots? Those restrictions were originally there expressly for the sake of balance, but when that was forgotten by later designers, balance went out the window.

There's a reason why it's 3rd Edition that has the most balance problems: everything is available to everyone, which means specializing in one thing is almost inherently weaker. The caveat: the one thing for certain caster classes is 'the ability to do anything'. That's the problem WOTC is now failing to address: yes the Fighter in DDN is competent at Fighting, a marked improvement from 3rd. But because they refuse to actually limit the conceptual and mechanical space for Arcane magic (while putting arbitrary limits on the conceptual and mechanical space for martial prowess), they haven't solved the problem, just narrowed the gap a bit.

TL;DR: how the wizard got overpowered is because nobody is willing respond to 'should a wizard really be able to do that?' with a solid 'no, they really shouldn't', but they all have opinions on what a fighter or a rogue shouldn't be able to do.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Bob Quixote posted:

How about you just give wizards worse magic? Like, just dial back the power level on their effects so that rather than "breaking reality" they just kind of stick to where the wizards in ye olde pulp fantasy that inspired the game tended to go and do some beams and bolts and the occasional nifty trick instead of practically becoming a demigod?

I may be biased though since I tend to like low-powered games in general, and almost everyone I've seen online says that D&D (in almost every version) is at its most fun in the early levels before anyone can really tell reality to gently caress itself in a serious way. Higher level play is almost always criticized for things like the item treadmill, enemy stat/hp bloat & the increasingly broken spell-list... so why not just trim all that stuff out instead of bolting on even more stuff?

EDIT

Just snip out anything in the spell list that would make the Fighters role as party protector/main damage guy obsolete and maybe set up more things to emphasize teamwork?
That game exists. It's called D&D 4th Edition.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Bob Quixote posted:

Don't a lot of people on here still complain about 4th ed. being tedious and mechanically annoying at high levels also?
Yes... That's not even tangentially related to what we were talking about though. I'm just saying 4E did exactly what you suggested, and, well, this thread and its predecessors are a testament to how a significant chunk of the hobby responded to that suggestion.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!
What. What? Gas prices in the US are the lowest they've been since the stock market crash in '08.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

grog posted:

To be fair I never considered Warlord a nice thing and I'm only glad Wizards seem to agree.. I feel it's way too tied to 4e design philosophy and I can't sand that for the life of me.. With that I bow out of this discussion..

Chaltab fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jan 14, 2015

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

paradoxGentleman posted:

There's no shame in disliking something that the grognards also dislike, as long as it's for a decent, non-reactionary reason.
:sigh: That was a quote.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Antivehicular posted:

Are grogs just people who never learned that bad gaming is worse than no gaming?
Some. Others are those for whom bad gaming is an acquired taste.

Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

gradenko_2000 posted:

Although that still does say that a Fighter has a "particular game function in the game mechanics"
Not just that. The paragraph right there is prefaced with

quote:

Role:
And every class has that. From the Patfhinder SRD:

quote:

Role: While universalist wizards might study to prepare themselves for any manner of danger, specialist wizards research schools of magic that make them exceptionally skilled within a specific focus. Yet no matter their specialty, all wizards are masters of the impossible and can aid their allies in overcoming any danger.
Yet this grog has the temerity to say:

quote:

"Role" as used in 4e is an alien way to think about PCs compared to the other editions

I guess it's alien because it has name instead of a paragraph. Dissociative mechanics! :v:

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Chaltab
Feb 16, 2011

So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Harrow posted:

If it's going to be larger-than-life mythic fantasy, then sure, spellcasters can keep their massive power, but myth is loaded with legendary heroes who never cast a single spell but do impossible and impossibly badass things. In that case, the Fighter isn't just some guy with a sword: he's a juggernaut who can cleave stone with his sword, and if he's not just relying on raw, inhuman strength, he's probably a tactical mastermind on the battlefield.
But that's the rub. You say that, and the grogs will shoot back that what you 'really want' is for fighters to have magic that's not called magic and that's really bad for some reason. For a lot of them it really is about Wizards outpacing the dumb jocks. You note that 4E chose to make everyone mythic, but that's not exactly the case. It smoothed out the power curve. Yes, many classes got a boost, but the Wizard was also drastically reduced. No 3.5 fighter can be as good as a 4E fighter, but no 4E Wizard can involuntarily planeshift an enemy mid-combat, or cast Wish. That pisses people off as much as the Book of Nine Swords.

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