Nautical Insanity: That's not a leak you're sinking

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Nautical Insanity: That's not a leak you're sinking

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Wife and I are looking to get our first boat, and wanted some super basic advice. It will be used on Lake Erie, so we think at least 23 ft. Wife wants to have a head compartment for our small kids. I have seen tons of bow riders that fit all of those categories, but I don�t know many boat brands. I know Sea Ray, Four Winns, Yamaha, and Chaparral.

So my dumb guy question is, how do you know what is a good brand? Google? A review site? I feel like if it was a car I would be looking for a Honda or Toyota, but I don�t know what those brands are in the boat world. Any advice on where to look other then. Dealers and boat trader.com?

# ¿ May 18, 2020 04:23

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 13:51

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

sharkytm posted:

SeaRay are the cheapest "boats" made. Everything will be built down to a price. They make ok first boats, are available at big dealers with financing, but depreciate like rocks. Buy used, with a thorough inspection if you're going that route.

I'm not a freshwater guy, but here in coastal MA, Grady White, Parker, and Boston Whaler are big names. Boston Whaler makes a bunch of bow riders, and they're (IMHO) better boats than a SeaRay. Every boat is a compromise.

What's your budget? That'll determine any advice's applicable-ness.

Awesome. So be weary of Sea Ray. Good to know.

I would say our budget is in the 45-60 range? Most things we have been looking at are around 55k? Would love to be lower rather then higher, and with seeing that over 65 would probably do a new nice 24 ft?

Thanks again!

# ¿ May 18, 2020 17:37

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

sharkytm posted:

With that budget, on the used market, you can do better than a SeaRay.

Solid Options (not in your price range, but SOLID boats):
Boston Whaler Vantage 230 (23')
Parker 2540DC (25')
Grady White Freedon 235 (23')

Robalo makes some dual consoles, as do Wellcraft, Starcraft, and Chaparral. EdgeWater is decent.
Sadly, I don't know much about that style of boat, but others can chime in.
How much are you going to use it? That's a key question, along with "Who's going to maintain it". Buying a boat is the cheap part. Storage/maintenance/repairs are not cheap.

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2011-grady-white-255-freedom-7324939/
To give you an idea...

Awesome. Thanks!

As for how much we would use it, we have a house right near the lake, and go up 2-3 days every weekend all summer and fall. So I would say a good amount? I would assume with water conditions on average once a week? We would pay the marina we stored it at to maintain. Money is not a huge object for things like maintenance, we just don't want to spend 200k on our first boat?

gvibes posted:

If you are going to get dealer-serviced, it frankly is probably a good idea to just buy a boat from whatever dealer is most local/convenient. At least with the mastercraft dealer by me, they treat their boat customers much better on service/delivery, for instance.

Generally speaking, it seems like you are probably going to get what you pay for (possible exceptions for some brand premiums, maybe), so just keep that in mind. Most brands seem pretty fungible to me.

In terms of what to look for, bow riders are pretty ubiquitous. There is more recent trend to power them with outboards, which seems more convenient to me. Easier to access for maintenance, and easier to repower if disaster strikes.

You may want to take a look at center/dual consoles as well. They are generally going to be a bit better made, but more utilitarian. Usually outboard powered as well. e: I would classify what sharky is recommending as in this category. e2: These would almost certainly be better in big lake chops than runabouts like a similarly-sized sea ray as well.

I looked a bit recently at what outboard engine companies have the best reliability reputation, and there doesn't seem to be a huge spread, with maybe yamaha getting a few more votes than anyone else.

There are actually cheaper/worse boats than sea rays! Like, Four Winns, I think. But yeah, all the boat brands you listed are better made. Just because they are made with more of an eye to offshore/salt water usage. Or at least GW and BW, not familiar with Parker. Whereas Sea Ray and Four Winns are more inland lake focused.

The dealer point is super great and valid. That is also good to know with brands/bow riders being a bit interchangeable. I will check out center/dual consoles as well. They seem a bit more suited for fishing to my eye, but I am not set on everything.

As for all the engine talk, I was kind of leaning towards a jet boat or sterndrive just for the kids jumping off the back and swimming. I did not know there was a huge move to outboards. I know they are more efficient than anything else. I will have to keep an open mind on that then. I was thinking they would be the least safe just from like a bumping your head scenario.
.
Thanks again. I think I need to almost have less of an idea on what I am looking for if we stop by some dealers this weekend.

# ¿ May 19, 2020 03:35

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

sharkytm posted:

That's a fair amount for a pleasure boat in the North. It's worth investing a better boat if you're going to use it and pay the maintenance.

The best thing about outboards is that you can raise them completely out of the water if needed. Want to beach the boat? Need to disentangle the prop? Simple enough. Safety-wise, I don't think it matters. OBs are just easier to deal with and don't take up any room inside the hull. Jets are pretty awesome for performance and basically the best for safety, but everything is contained in/under the hull for maintenance/repairs. No clue on Yamaha boats... that's a freshwater/lake thing. Chris Craft used to be awesome, then poo poo, and I think they're on the rebound, probably worth a look.

My take: talk to a couple of local dealers, and talk to their service people about what is easiest/best to work on. The salespeople will 100% tell you that every boat is awesome and never needs anything, but (like all salespeople), they're full of poo poo. Definitely get some test rides, and if you're buying used, pay for a full inspection. Hull blistering, core delam, dodgy wiring, and other hidden issues aren't immediately obvious to the uninformed. Bonus points if you know someone independent to do the inspections.

Yeah, we want quality vs saving money. That was what motivated the move to used. Would rather have a solid used boat vs a cheap new. I will definitely keep ob in mind. More space in the boat was a positive on a jet, so that�s a great point for a ob as well.

Yeah, our plan was to hit up all the local places and see who doesn�t seem like a piece of poo poo. Our local power sports guys are real decent and gave me a hell of a deal when I bought a Sea Doo a few years ago, and I know they sell Yamaha as a minimum. I also have a decent friend who is the finance guy at a local dealership. I like asking him what is the easiest to maintain. That is something I would not have thought about. And I will for sure pay for an inspection before pulling the trigger.

You guys have been awesome. Thanks and I will keep you updated.

Snowmankilla fucked around with this message at 18:45 on May 19, 2020

# ¿ May 19, 2020 18:41

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Spent the day looking at boats. I think my wife has decided we are going big and new. There was just not really the amount of used boats out there. Top 3 were a Scarab 255 Open that was cool, and the cheapest by a lot, but I read some not great things about their quality lately?
The ones we are stuck between is a Yamaha 275 Se and a Regal LS6. Tons of space, beautiful, and seem super spotty/fun. So ignore when I said we were not going to spend a ton, but I am pumped.

Going to check them both out back to back tomorrow!

# ¿ May 22, 2020 22:31

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Kurten posted:

Enjoyed the thread and your posts/questions in particular Snowmankilla, so had to respond

I wouldn't get anywhere near a brand new $50k-100k boat without tons of previous boating experience and a lakefront house with a dock ready to go (boat ramps and the people you will meet there loving suck, and you're not going to use it nearly as much as you think unless its sitting there docked ready to go, trust me ), but it seems like you're determined to jump in with both feet. That said, I'm a jetboat guy, fresh water only. There are some big differences between old jets and new jets, but speaking in generalities:

Pros of jets:
1. You will hear people say how jets can run in almost ridiculous levels of shallow water. They aren't kidding you. I've run my current 21 foot jet through a under-highway culvert (!) with ~6 inches of water with no problems at all. A rather puckering experience due to nervousness the first time but completely uneventful otherwise.
2. Jets have a great hole shot from a dead stop. Awesome for pulling up skiers or wakeboarders. They will love you after they realize how hard they need to hold on for the initial jolt.
3. Completely safe for the kiddos. No sharp razor blade prop to worry about at all. Jet intake on the bottom will have a grate over it that prevents any shenanigans. If you've spent any time at all at a sandbar in the summer when there's boats beached everywhere and you get to watch someone every single day get a huge shin gusher you will realize how nice this is.
4. The engines are usually either modern tarted up jet-ski type motors or old big block v-8s...relatively simple or dead simple either way. The pumps are mechanically uncomplicated across the board, especially the older berkley style pumps. You can do plenty of tinkering yourself without relying on a marina mechanic.
5. No big clunky outboard in the way of your stern. Most likely have a seat or sun deck over the engine.
6. If you've got a reverse-bucket jet boat (most new boats are like this, means its a jet with reverse basically) you can almost parallel park a jet at low speed. It's incredible how agile they are at near-stop speeds. You will be the envy of all the prop guys at any restaurant dock or dock with a crowd you pull up to.

Cons of jets:

1. Not nearly as fast as they should be or you would think they would be. Just about every equally sized/hp boat with an outboard will be faster. A LOT faster. You'll get them on the hole shot but they will quickly pass you at speed. And if its an old v-drive boat good night to the jet completely. There's nothing more humbling than roaring across the water at 65 bellowing death from your loud open-headers big block...then getting passed like you're standing still by some toothless redneck wearing a wifebeater with a $2000 camo bass boat and a lovely old duct-taped outboard that makes 150 horses.
2. Gas mileage on jets tends to suck rear end. Not just at comparable speeds but across the board.
3. in-hull engine + jet can be a pain in the rear end to work on compared to an outboard which sticks out and can be removed. Some jet boats worse than others.
4. Running in shallow water does not mean your jet is immune to sucking up poo poo and getting fouled. As one heinous example: Lily pads will get sucked up and foul your pump as quickly as they will tangle a prop. Plus you now get to dive under your boat to clear the grate with your fingers. And if you're in lily pads guaranteed there's now leeches on your rear end after you dive under.
5. The jet pump will suck up a tow rope as easily as a prop will eat one. Possibly even easier. Also see above for how fun that is to clear.
6. Steering with a jet is a love it or hate it thing similar to operating a jet ski or playing the old Asteroids arcade game. Remember you have no steering without the power on so unless you've installed a rudder on your jet (some come with it, others don't) you have to put your foot in it to turn at all. This can be very bad for the inexperienced.

All that said: I have heard good things about Yamaha and Regal and nothing bad about scarab. There are a LOT of yamaha jets around me, mostly wake boarding boats like the AR 240s and AR 210s. I hate wake boats in general but there's a poo poo ton of them around here and I've never heard any mechanical complaints. Regal is pretty rare but there's a good amount of Scarabs around like the 215ID etc which are common. One of the neighbors has a 165 ID that he thrashes on with no complaints so there's that.

I should note here that I wouldn't want to mess with ANY of these little boats you or I have mentioned on lake fuckin Erie, but then that's your look out.

My apologies for the long post. Good luck in your purchase.

You guys are the best. Thanks for all the info. I know it is not the best to jump in so hard, but it�s kind of my wife�s personality. We wanted a place on Lake Erie, small shack, cheap as hell. Ended up with a 4 bedroom house with a bigger lawn then our actual house.

Like I said, the biggest thing is there not being tons of boats around that are in that 3-10 years old, and under 100k. I don�t know if they get bought quickly, or just a dumb time for us to buy.

That�s good to hear that you have not heard bad stuff about Scarabs. It�s hard to google poo poo because you find the one person who has problems. This whole thing has been really overwhelming.

# ¿ May 23, 2020 15:20

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Cat Hatter posted:

Did you ever mention what you were primarily interested in doing on a boat? Chilling and getting some sun? Skiing? Tubing? Making Donzi owners rethink their life choices?

For example, when looking for my current boat my wife wanted a place to lie in the sun which ruled out a couple Chaparrals and we both wanted something better at watersports than a pontoon and I don't like the way an inboard drives. Also, all the reasonably priced Baja's sold too quickly.

Chilling and tubing. Maybe learning to ski or wake boarding. Space for for around 6-8 to be comfortable.

What did you end up buying?

# ¿ May 23, 2020 17:04

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

So I think we are going with the Regal. I am super pumped and a bit nervous. Is there a good site to learn about boat ownership? I am taking a safety course, but it�s all online, it feels more like getting your temps.

I am looking for 3 kind of things: general advice (don�t forget to put the drain plug), what I should own (we have all the stuff to make it Coast Guard ready, but I am also buying a marine radio), tips and tricks (I was planning to take them through a local Power Squadron, but Covid).

Any advice or places to look? For reference I read tons on the Steven in sales site before getting our Sea Doo.

# ¿ May 28, 2020 04:11

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

n0tqu1tesane posted:

BoatUS has a bunch of articles and training resources on stuff like that.

They have some training courses here:
http://www.boatus.org/

And their magazine has a ton of articles like this:
https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2013/April/spring-checklist.asp

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/trailering/2013/June/10-step-prelaunch-checklist.asp

That�s where I�m taking my class through!

And here she is! We took possession yesterday at 8. Went out 4 time, and have docked 5! So far so good.

# ¿ May 31, 2020 13:47

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Had our boat pulled out of the water on Monday. The place we bought it/service it/store it in the winter did it for us. Then I got a casual email asking if we wanted a quote to fix all the prop/skeg damage. That I did not know we had. Sent us this picture (we live about 2 hours away and will not be up there until this weekend).

My first thought was �how did I not know I did this� before realizing there is no loving way I did this. About 3 trips ago I scrubbed the prop and out drive and definitely would have noticed if I had broken half of my skeg off. Last 2 trips have been uneventful (no beaching, no log hits, never in shallow water). Does this look like hit something damage? Or dragged it along the concrete/ramp damage?

The reason I ask is after questioning them a bit (and letting them know our dock master from our marina saw them use our boat as a taxi on Monday), the service manager said they �may have dragged it a bit�. He brought that up out of the blue.

I am staying calm while they fix it, but it was left in a kind of limbo where it was not clear who was paying for it.

Any experienced boaters know what this damage looks like? Or am I just in a he said/he said situation?

Snowmankilla fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Nov 4, 2021

# ¿ Nov 4, 2021 02:10

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Yeah I am hoping they make it right, but I am afraid they are going to say �you wouldn�t know if you hit anything, and you don�t check your prop every time you dock. Doesn�t look like concrete damage to me�. We do pay them a good amount every year, and the wife is eyeing an upgrade. I hope they don�t lose our business over this?

# ¿ Nov 4, 2021 02:48

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Elmnt80 posted:

For something to compare to, this was a rock strike from some months back from work. Cust ran over some rocks. I'd look to see if the skeg was ground down instead of snapping like the skeg here. I'd also look for damage on all prop blades vs just a few with how it looks in those pics.

That�s great advice. I�ll get more pics.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2021 02:56

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Hadlock posted:

Lmao, wait, back the gently caress up, what

I think the dock master was trying to tell you something here without inserting himself into your personal financial drama

What does "use our boat as a taxi" mean. I won't even let the marina touch my boat while I'm not physically watching them, let alone start the engine

Yeah. That has my wife fired up as well. They were pulling a number of boats out of our marina, but using the public ramp 5 min away. Our marina saw them use our boat to ferry people back and forth between the marina and the ramp. No idea how long they were on it.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2021 23:05

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 13:51

Snowmankilla: Dec 6, 2000; True, true

Crunchy Black posted:

Looking at it again it is a pretty clean break.

But who gives a poo poo; if they were using your boat for unauthorized purposes, as I said and has been echoed. They lost all benefit of a doubt, right there. Unfortunately unless that harbormaster wants to talk to the cops, which seems unlikely, you're right, it is he said/she said from even a civil damages point of view.

IANAL

Ha. That is not what I want to hear. Hopefully they step up?

# ¿ Nov 4, 2021 23:05

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Nautical Insanity: That's not a leak you're sinking