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Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

MENTALLY
DEFEATED


Grimey Drawer

From Toxx's Planet of The Dead review:

quote:

we instead get this super cool and awesome Original Character Do Not Steal lady thief who's totally self-assured and amazing who's obsessed with The Doctor and constantly, smugly correcting him

The poor bastard has no idea what's coming.

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The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


The Horror channel had the omnibus of Robots of Death on this evening, and both my parents and I all sat there watching it over dinner, rapt.

Solaris Knight
Apr 26, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT POWER RANGERS MYSTIC FORCE


Big Mean Jerk posted:

From Toxx's Planet of The Dead review:


The poor bastard has no idea what's coming.

Oh god, that didn't even occur to me.

This will be an amazing ride

Stuporstar
May 5, 2008

Where do fists come from?


Metal Loaf posted:

The Sontaran two-parter is good on its own merits, but I often feel it seems a little weaker than it really is for being sandwiched between "The Ark on Space" and "Genesis of the Daleks".

Nice.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Big Mean Jerk posted:

From Toxx's Planet of The Dead review:


The poor bastard has no idea what's coming.

Oh my GOD I didn't even spy that.

Oh God why did River have to turn into....what she became...

Solaris Knight
Apr 26, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT POWER RANGERS MYSTIC FORCE


Burkion posted:

Oh my GOD I didn't even spy that.

Oh God why did River have to turn into....what she became...

Because Moffat had to make her IMPORTANT and IMPOSSIBLE, and that meant overloading people with her beyond a mere two episodes where she's shown as fallible and more down to Earth.

But that's just my guess.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


River was good from her first appearance and remains good throughout. River owns. Moffat owns. Doctor Who owns. Everything owns.

Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!



Oxxidation posted:

River was good from her first appearance and remains good throughout. River owns. Moffat owns. Doctor Who owns. Everything owns.

Are you sure hes never watched it because he has so many dramatic irony quotes

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

MENTALLY
DEFEATED


Grimey Drawer

River is fine in her first episode and becomes increasingly unbearable in each episode after.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


Little_wh0re posted:

Are you sure hes never watched it because he has so many dramatic irony quotes

They're not really ironic because their basis is false. River's fine and always was, regardless of what the noise machine here has meme'd the character into over the last several years.

I spitballed the whole River-Christina comparison off him when we were watching and he said they weren't similar for pretty much the same reasons I did - River's confidence and superiority are established and earned, both by her onscreen performance and by her unseen (and later revealed) history with the Doctor. Christina's confidence and superiority exist because she exists in a pocket dimension where all guards and police are basically Elmer Fudd.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


I didn't really like River at first, but I came round to liking her when I realised how much the chracter upset Doctor Who fans.

Linear Zoetrope
Nov 28, 2011

A hero must cook

The problem I had with River was when they showed their relationship, I didn't buy it. It felt like the entire time the Doctor was stringing her along. Like he was acting out a play that they were married because he knew they were married in the future. Especially in the episode with their wedding, marrying her seemed like a last ditch "oh, gently caress it!" option to save the universe rather than any actual desire to be in a relationship with her.


It's a shame, because River is decent, and she gets that great Gay Gypsy Bar Mitzvah line, but I really feel like the Doctor would have married Mickey the Idiot just as well as River in the same situation.

Linear Zoetrope fucked around with this message at Nov 23, 2014 around 00:35

Noxville
Dec 7, 2003



Oxxidation posted:

River's fine and always was, regardless of what the noise machine here has meme'd the character into over the last several years.

Yes, everyone who thinks she's terrible only does because everyone else does. Nailed it.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


Noxville posted:

Yes, everyone who thinks she's terrible only does because everyone else does. Nailed it.

Yup, pretty much. I have little respect for your opinions.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

River's rad, the problem is that Series Six was all about River, and Serie Six sucked. That's not a CAUSAL relationship, but much like "The Twin Dilemma" and Ol' Sixie, they're impossible to fully seperate from one another.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


Series Six...*steeples fingers*...also owned.

I am interested in seeing how Occ will react to the man, but we're not going to find out til January.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


Lipstick Apathy

Jerusalem posted:

I love the Doctor's insistence (and Clara's bemused disbelief) that he could absolutely have a job if he wanted ("have it on my desk... do I have a desk? Get me a desk!"), which even gets touched on at the end when he happily declares that he could be a curator if he wanted.

I liked his economical explanation of the job he DID have which was basically trying to run away from UNIT and having to stop invasions in between. He doesn't use the scientist excuse any more though. It's that pipe dream that he can just sit back and let the universe do its own thing, which he doesn't seriously believe.

Oxxidation posted:

Yup, pretty much. I have little respect for your opinions.

In the cupboard. Now.

ewe2 fucked around with this message at Nov 23, 2014 around 00:58

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Oxxidation posted:

Series Six...*steeples fingers*...also owned.
Please don't troll the Doctor Who thread.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Oxxidation posted:

Series Six...*steeples fingers*...also owned.

Well I'm a big fan of The War Games but The Space Pir-oh we did this joke already today

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007



DoctorWhat posted:

River's rad, the problem is that Series Six was all about River, and Serie Six sucked. That's not a CAUSAL relationship, but much like "The Twin Dilemma" and Ol' Sixie, they're impossible to fully seperate from one another.

I feel like Series Six really frustrated me at times while watching it, but it's almost worth it just for how much this amuses me every time I see it:

Senor Tron
May 25, 2006



I think Toxx is gonna love series 5 for the pure quality of if, even though it loses a lot of the camp he seems like like about the RTD era, then hate series 6.

Senor Tron
May 25, 2006



thexerox123 posted:

I feel like Series Six really frustrated me at times while watching it, but it's almost worth it just for how much this amuses me every time I see it:



I also like to imagine River watching Amy drink the wine, getting more and more nervous with each sip Amy takes.

docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

High marks for compassion, low marks for survival skills





Season Six does have one of my favorite episodes of the entire revival. (The God Complex. And shut up no it is not either undermined by the eventual reveal of what the Doctor saw in his room.)

Come to think of it, Season Six has quite a few very good episodes. I have some problems with the main story arc, but I refuse to countenance the idea that a season that contained the aforementioned The God Complex, as well as A Christmas Carol, The Doctor's Wife, the Flesh two-parter, The Girl Who Waited, Closing Time, and gently caress it, A Good Man Goes To War "sucked".

It was about this point, though, that I realized the key to enjoying Moffat-era Who was to completely ignore the main story arcs as much as possible. (Well, no not really, but they're definitely the weak link.)

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Maybe Doctor Who is just not too good with the number Six.

Senor Tron
May 25, 2006



docbeard posted:

Season Six does have one of my favorite episodes of the entire revival. (The God Complex. And shut up no it is not either undermined by the eventual reveal of what the Doctor saw in his room.)

Come to think of it, Season Six has quite a few very good episodes. I have some problems with the main story arc, but I refuse to countenance the idea that a season that contained the aforementioned The God Complex, as well as A Christmas Carol, The Doctor's Wife, the Flesh two-parter, The Girl Who Waited, Closing Time, and gently caress it, A Good Man Goes To War "sucked".

It was about this point, though, that I realized the key to enjoying Moffat-era Who was to completely ignore the main story arcs as much as possible. (Well, no not really, but they're definitely the weak link.)

Huh, when you list it out like that there were quite a few good episodes in that series.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Season 6 doesn't hold together very well as a full season, but it has some of the best individual episodes of the revival's entire run.

And River is fine, the quality is diluted by the number of her appearances but people get really hyperbolic about making out like she became the worst thing ever. At her worst (when played by Alex Kingston) she isn't even remotely close to as bad as Lady Christina. The only time she comes close is in the awful, terrible, not-very-good "Mels" character who sucks in terms of performance, writing AND in concept.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Series Six does, indeed, have numerous really good episodes. Taken on its own merits, the opening two-parter is really solid at worst. The Doctor's Wife, while not even close to being the best Doctor Who story ever,* is a story that needed telling, and was told well and fun and really great. The Girl Who Waited and The God Complex are likewise fantastic.

However, Series Six failed as a serialized narrative, because although the resolution was ridiculously telegraphed, the ridiculous span of time between the airings of The Impossible Astronaut and The Wedding of River Song, combined with the innumerable ways in which Wedding and Let's Kill Hitler failed to stick the landing on their numerous Big Leaps, made the dissonance between the hype and the delivered product almost comical in its enormity.



* Even only counting TV stories, it'd need to beat out The Ribos Operation, Gridlock, City of Death, fully half of Season 12, Midnight, Caves of Androzani, and The Curse of Fenric, plus at least a dozen other stories, before it stood a chance.

Linear Zoetrope
Nov 28, 2011

A hero must cook

Out of wonder, why do people hate Let's Kill Hitler so much? Admittedly I only saw it once, but I remember liking it in a "oh my god this is the most ridiculous thing ever" sort of way. I enjoy it the same way Occ likes The Christmas Invasion, basically.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Senor Tron posted:

I also like to imagine River watching Amy drink the wine, getting more and more nervous with each sip Amy takes.

It's not really Amy though. She'd already been replaced by the Ganger hadn't she?

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Jsor posted:

Out of wonder, why do people hate Let's Kill Hitler so much? Admittedly I only saw it once, but I remember liking it in a "oh my god this is the most ridiculous thing ever" sort of way. I enjoy it the same way Occ likes The Christmas Invasion, basically.

We waited nearly three months for it, expecting something that really dealt with the aftermath of A Good Man Goes to War, but it failed to live up to the hype it set up. Some great moments, but it failed to cohere.

It's a microsm of the Series as a whole.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



Jerusalem posted:

That was a much longer review than I was expecting it to be, sorry! But please talk about Day of the Doctor because it's about the right time of year to do so and holy poo poo was it good!

Hands down one of my favorite episodes of all time. Perfect for the anniversary, fanwanky when necessary but not to the detriment of the story. No matter what Moffat may have done or could do wrong, this episode will always something to laud him for.

I had said long ago I would settle for "The __ Doctors" for the anniversary and nothing less. To that point, I was disappointed that we were only getting a "Two Doctors Redux" but this was tempered by the fact that I knew Tennant and Smith, two of my favorite Doctors, would interact great together.

If all we got was that, and the glimpses of the various Doctors in archival/CG footage in the previous ep, it would have been a fantastic anniversary. But Moffat did so much more...creating a new Doctor, giving us 8 back on the screen, and that was above all expectations. But of course, he wasn't done...we got the 13 Doctors all flying in together which brought it to a whole new level. And just when you're think you're exhausted...bam!..The Curator. I can still recall the roller coaster of emotions I was feeling.

Upon reflection I also am really glad we got The War Doctor. He's a great incarnation with a lot of future story potential, and a good new dimension to the Doctor. As you say, he preserves 8's character too. For whatever reason, I think I actually prefer him to the original plan of having 9 back and exploring his part in the War, or even throwing it on 8.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Jsor posted:

Out of wonder, why do people hate Let's Kill Hitler so much? Admittedly I only saw it once, but I remember liking it in a "oh my god this is the most ridiculous thing ever" sort of way. I enjoy it the same way Occ likes The Christmas Invasion, basically.

It's actually a lot of fun in places, but it has a number of really glaring problems:

- It wraps up the questions raised at the end of the heavier A Good Man Goes To War in an incredibly unsatisfying fashion.
- It botches the "first" meeting between River and Doctor from her perspective, keeping her on an equal/superior footing to the Doctor which completely goes against her recollection of events in the Library 2-parter, which had helped to explain the pleasure she took in dangling her future knowledge over his head (unaware he was holding back his own).
- It includes a massive and ham-handed retconning of Amy and Rory's childhood that is awfully handled, makes no goddamn sense and stands out like dog's balls as utter nonsense.
- The actresses who play Mels as a child and an adult are both awful at delivering the type of material that Alex Kingston just seems to have a natural handle on.
- Mels is so heavily incorporated into the early part of the story, an unwelcome intrusion into the Doctor/Amy/Rory dynamic, especially considering how they parted ways at the end of A Good Man Goes To War.
- It marks for many the point where Moffat became more interested in style over substance, based on comments he made about "slutting up" the show, so they point to this episode as the point where his quality as a showrunner took a downward turn (I disagree).
- It muddles River's backstory even further and both makes no sense and completely fails to understand that hanging out with your parents when they were the same age as you isn't the same thing as being raised by your parents.
- Amy and Rory far too smoothly handle the reveal of who Mels was, quickly abandon their recently reunited daughter, and jump back into the status quo of fun adventures with the Doctor which makes no sense from a character or narrative point of view.

It's a pretty perfect encapsulation of Season 6 as a whole - it's messy, lacks cohesion or flow, but includes some truly stupendously good elements to it alongside some utter nonsense. It's really a best of times/worst of times kind of thing. Let's Kill Hitler basically demonstrates some of the best of Doctor Who AND the worst of Doctor Who simultaneously.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


DoctorWhat posted:

Taken on its own merits, the opening two-parter is really solid at worst.

Nah it's not great and has a few big big big problems with it

docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

High marks for compassion, low marks for survival skills





Jsor posted:

Out of wonder, why do people hate Let's Kill Hitler so much? Admittedly I only saw it once, but I remember liking it in a "oh my god this is the most ridiculous thing ever" sort of way. I enjoy it the same way Occ likes The Christmas Invasion, basically.

Show me that episode in a vacuum, and you could in no way convince me that Amy and Rory were six months out from their infant daughter having been kidnapped.

Aside from that rather large albatross, I think it's fine, if completely silly. (And I loving love the Tesalecta or however it's meant to be spelled and I will hear nothing said against it.) But yeah, it's basically the poster child for why:

DoctorWhat posted:

Series Six failed as a serialized narrative

Or everything Jerusalem just said.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Nah it's not great and has a few big big big problems with it

The pacing is solid, the direction is good, the Silence are genuinely creepy, and the "victory", though morally dubious in the extreme, is cleverly effected. There's excellent moments, like Rory's trauma over his alternate life, and the fantastically bizarre imagery of the Astronaut rising from a lake with a laser gun. Canton owns, too.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Oh yeah, and let's not forget the TERRIBLE epilogue with River.

Respected Professor of an enormously prestigious Galactic University: So Miss Song, why do you want to study archeology?
River Song: I'll be perfectly honest...I'm looking for a good man

How that episode doesn't end with that professor going,"Haha get the gently caress out of my office" I'll never know.

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


DoctorWhat posted:

The pacing is solid, the direction is good, the Silence are genuinely creepy, and the "victory", though morally dubious in the extreme, is cleverly effected. There's excellent moments, like Rory's trauma over his alternate life, and the fantastically bizarre imagery of the Astronaut rising from a lake with a laser gun. Canton owns, too.

I love that final scene of Canton and Nixon in the Oval Office.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeVlCUFDc6w

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


The Silence do a lot of dumb poo poo for the plot to work and even then there's a huge gaping plot hole right in the middle of it.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

a negative influence


Jerusalem posted:

Oh yeah, and let's not forget the TERRIBLE epilogue with River.

Respected Professor of an enormously prestigious Galactic University: So Miss Song, why do you want to study archeology?
River Song: I'll be perfectly honest...I'm looking for a good man

How that episode doesn't end with that professor going,"Haha get the gently caress out of my office" I'll never know.

"Haha, so to speak. Really though, I have a tremendous interest in certain pieces of Mizoyonian architecture, there definitely seems to be a syncretism present between them and other sites throughout the quadrant."

Or maybe she just got her tits out. You never know with universities.

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Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Oxxidation posted:

"Haha, so to speak. Really though, I have a tremendous interest in certain pieces of Mizoyonian architecture, there definitely seems to be a syncretism present between them and other sites throughout the quadrant."

Or maybe she just got her tits out. You never know with universities.

I can't really tell what you're going for here, because J-Ru is utterly on point- River's only answer is so she can meet the Doctor.

That one line alone belies Moffat's intentions towards her character as a whole. She's fetish bait, just of a different type.

Which is very sad because when she first showed up, she was great. And her appearance in the Angels two parter was OK too. The Angels Two Parter kinda sucked, but you know.

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