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Emerson Cod posted:I'm not sure exactly what your plan is - is it intended to be solely a production wiki? To what extent do you plan to summarize episodes or note connections between episodes? Do you intend to have a table of character/actor appearances at all? The idea, I believe from conversation elsewhere, is to avoid stupid poo poo like Faction Paradox being excised from the current wiki because it's "not real canon Doctor Who", when obviously it is as much as anything else is. They appeared in many of the novels, and it's easy as punch to put in a small note in the opening paragraph, or somewhere in the chronology that they're the creation of Lawrence Miles, who took his ball, went home, and starting making his own books and audio-dramas once he and BBC books parted ways. Trying to explain Iris Wildthyme is just as silly if you're only restricting yourself to Doctor Who related material. An "in-universe" wiki can't do that, but this one could. No debates on whether "that's canon" or not. Does it relate to Doctor Who? It's in, with an explanation as to why written from a real world perspective (i.e. Auton is a direct-to-video film produced by BBV (link), written by Nicholas Briggs(link), featuring UNIT(link) and the Autons(link), who are most famous for their appearances during the 3rd Doctor(link) era).
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Jan 23, 2015 23:52
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The wiki is about Doctor Who as a cultural phenomenon, a knowledge-base that's part Snopes, part episode guide, and part DVD infotext, with as little fancruft as possible.
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Jan 24, 2015 00:33
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Provisional Ruined FOREVER list: * Bug Eyed Monsters * Susan leaving * Barbara and Ian leaving * William Hartnell leaving * Changing the actor playing the Doctor * Patrick Troughton as the new Doctor * Revealing the Doctor as a Time Lord * Patrick Troughton leaving * Switching to colour production * Jon Pertwee as the new Doctor * Being stuck on Earth * UNIT's constant presence * Not being stuck on Earth * Roger Delgado's death * Jon Pertwee leaving * Tom Baker as the new Doctor * Sarah Jane leaving * K9 * Adric * "Costumes, not clothes." * Tom Baker leaving * Peter Davison as the new Doctor * The UNIT Dating Controversy * Kamelion * Peter Davison leaving * Colin Baker as the new Doctor * Bonnie Langford * Sylvester McCoy as the new Doctor * Keff McCulloch * The 1989 cancellation * New Adventures authors and Ace * American Doctor Who * Rapping TARDIS console * Paul McGann as the new Doctor * The Doctor kissing his companion * The Wilderness Years * Russell T Davies as the new showrunner * Christopher Eccleston as the new Doctor * Billie Piper as the new companion * Leather jacket Doctor * The Gay Agenda * Openly bisexual companion Jack * Christopher Eccleston leaving * David Tennant as the new Doctor * New Cybermen * Rose leaving * Martha arriving as the first black companion * The Master returning and being wacky * Martha leaving * Space Titanic * The return of Donna * Donna leaving * A year of specials * David Tennant leaving * RTD leaving * New Twilight Doctor Matt Smith * River Song * A new never seen Doctor * Matt Smith leaving * Old man Capaldi Doctor
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Jan 24, 2015 02:27
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Things that ruined Doctor Who forever: Steven Moffat, Russell Davies, John Nathan-Turner, Graham Williams (etc) Drat Terry Nation and his bug-eyed monsters 
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Jan 24, 2015 02:27
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Woohoo! No Big Finish on the list! Minuet in Hell redeemed!
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Jan 24, 2015 02:37
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CobiWann posted:Woohoo! No Big Finish on the list! Minuet in Hell redeemed! All the Eighth Doctor ruination was omitted because of amnesia.
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Jan 24, 2015 02:45
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CobiWann posted:Woohoo! No Big Finish on the list! Minuet in Hell redeemed! Big Finish couldn't ruin Doctor Who forever because Doctor Who was solidly ruined forever when they got it. 
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Jan 24, 2015 02:46
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In the first signs of Goon Drama I guess it's worth clearing up confusion and pointing out that the previous group of Wiki peeps don't know anything about DoctorWhat's new Wiki. The basis of the one we were creating was to keep each continuity separate and have an in-depth production history/review/behind the scenes side to the Wiki, while having strict control over articles to keep its a family friendly site befitting the show. Whatever DoctorWhat is doing sounds cool, but it's not the original Goon Doctor Who Wiki.
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Jan 24, 2015 02:49
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docbeard posted:All the Eighth Doctor ruination was omitted because of amnesia. May you find yourself in a BG II Iron Man run with Aerie as your only NPC. And romance option.
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Jan 24, 2015 03:32
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CobiWann posted:May you find yourself in a BG II Iron Man run with Aerie as your only NPC. And romance option. Aerie is actually one of the best stat blocks in the game and if Jakiri's done anything for these forums he's proved you don't need companions for an ironman Speaking of, Jakiri, did you see that there's going to be a Pillars of Eternity achievement for completing Expert Path of the Damned Heart of Iron as a solo character?
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Jan 24, 2015 03:37
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PriorMarcus posted:The basis of the one we were creating was to keep each continuity separate and have an in-depth production history/review/behind the scenes side to the Wiki, while having strict control over articles to keep its a family friendly site befitting the show. When a TV show itself can't manage to keep its continuity straight for more than a couple years at a time is there really a benefit to having separate continuities for everything? Plus, even with all the ancillary material the separate continuities form an oddly coherent sequence anyways. For the most part its original series - books - Big Finish - new series, with some comics sprinkled in occasionally. I'd say just throw everything in together, and refrain from pointing out contradictions unless they're particularly interesting or amusing.
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Jan 24, 2015 03:38
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PriorMarcus posted:Whatever DoctorWhat is doing sounds cool, but it's not the original Goon Doctor Who Wiki. I don't think something can be the original one if it doesn't actually exist in any shape or form.
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Jan 24, 2015 04:02
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Rewatching Amy's Choice, I just realised it foreshadows the rest of series 5 with Rory dying and the Tardis getting blown up. Not really significant but kind of neat.
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Jan 24, 2015 04:36
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DoctorWhat posted:The wiki is about Doctor Who as a cultural phenomenon, a knowledge-base that's part Snopes, part episode guide, and part DVD infotext, with as little fancruft as possible. My primary concern goes something like this... http://xkcd.com/927/ ...but who knows, maybe this will be so good that it'll get past that. 
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Jan 24, 2015 05:01
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Under Colin Baker's Big Finish entry please put:code:
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Jan 24, 2015 05:22
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Fungah! posted:Aerie is actually one of the best stat blocks in the game and if Jakiri's done anything for these forums he's proved you don't need companions for an ironman  And yeah, in a 2 man party Aerie will get very powerful very very quickly. Fungah! posted:Speaking of, Jakiri, did you see that there's going to be a Pillars of Eternity achievement for completing Expert Path of the Damned Heart of Iron as a solo character? I've been deliberately ignoring Pillars of Eternity until it's released 
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Jan 24, 2015 13:52
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MrL_JaKiri posted:
Aerie owns.
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Jan 24, 2015 14:49
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Little_wh0re posted:Aerie owns. When did this happen? I never had a good experience with her on my team! What's going on? Is this still reality? Quick, who's the current Doctor?!?
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Jan 24, 2015 15:51
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CobiWann posted:When did this happen? I never had a good experience with her on my team! Don't worry, it's still David Oleyowo.
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Jan 24, 2015 16:21
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The_Doctor posted:Don't worry, it's still David Oleyowo. He came after Paterson Joseph, right?
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Jan 24, 2015 16:23
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I've been deliberately ignoring Pillars of Eternity until it's released Whoops, sorry man, didn't realize. Honestly, yeah, that's a pretty good policy, I've been watching the thread and while seeing sausage being made is interesting I think I would've preferred to just have a game waiting for me. CobiWann posted:When did this happen? I never had a good experience with her on my team! Aerie the character's unbearable. Aerie the stat block is hilariously good, especially in a smaller party. Access to both types of magic and stats conducive to using both of them well is really really powerful in an IE game. The_Doctor posted:Don't worry, it's still David Oleyowo. Haha, don't be silly, it's still Chiwetel Ejiofor.
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Jan 24, 2015 16:38
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Bicyclops posted:THANK YOU FOR REGISTERING FOR DA-LEKPEDIA. PLEASE VISIT THE "CANDIDATES FOR EXTERMINATION" ARTICLE, WHERE YOU WILL FIND EVERY ENTRY, INCLUDING THE ONE ON DA-LEKS. we already talked about conservapedia, try to keep up
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Jan 24, 2015 16:42
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Fil5000 posted:He came after Paterson Joseph, right? No, it was Paterson, then Tilda Swinton, then him.
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Jan 24, 2015 17:07
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Grover Cleaveland was the Doctor for two non-consecutive terms.
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Jan 24, 2015 17:20
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CobiWann posted:When did this happen? I never had a good experience with her on my team! Shes a mage/cleric how can you have a bad experience.
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Jan 24, 2015 17:55
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I actually played through the Aerie romance when I was much, much younger. It...was pretty much what you'd expect. But yeah, cleric/mage at high levels is ridiculous.
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Jan 24, 2015 18:08
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I can't deal with this. Next you'll tell me Haer'Dalis isn't a bad character!
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Jan 24, 2015 18:41
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DoctorWhat posted:Grover Cleaveland was the Doctor for two non-consecutive terms. Nah, that was Tom.
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Jan 24, 2015 18:48
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CobiWann posted:I can't deal with this. Next you'll tell me Haer'Dalis isn't a bad character! Blades are pretty good, he's not as good as Aerie but then no-one is.
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Jan 24, 2015 18:58
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Man, my world is turned upside down, first a black Master and now this!
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Jan 24, 2015 19:55
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I can't wait till David Oyelowo leaves so we can get Tom Baker for his 2nd run.
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Jan 24, 2015 20:54
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Haer'Dalis was an actor from another dimension, so it's theoretically possible that he was actually Colin Baker with some swords.
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Jan 24, 2015 22:28
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docbeard posted:Haer'Dalis was an actor from another dimension, so it's theoretically possible that he was actually Colin Baker with some swords. 
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Jan 24, 2015 22:33
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I've been deliberately ignoring Pillars of Eternity until it's released Well then the good news is that you won't have to ignore it much longer 
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Jan 24, 2015 23:03
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Jerusalem posted:Well then the good news is that you won't have to ignore it much longer March 26th?!? drat it! I'm at RegenerationCon having tea with Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy that weekend!
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Jan 24, 2015 23:09
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In the Forest of the Night is not just not good, it's bad. It is a bad episode of Doctor Who, it is a bad episode of television. It's a crying shame, because even though it's the worst episode of season 8 it is made worse by the fact that there IS the faint glimmerings of some really neat and interesting ideas in there, but the whole thing is handled so badly. Probably the best thing about the episode is the visuals, with a couple of stand-out camera shots (the movement up Nelson's column, or the sun-backlit scene where Maebh finally stops running), and the way the forest/city setting is presented is top-notch if you ignore the global shots (there are trees raising up out of the deepest parts of the ocean?). But the acting is passable at best, with Capaldi and Coleman doing their usual fine job but only able to do so much with the material they've been given. The continuation of the Danny/Clara storyline rings false to me for the first time so far this season. Clara's fatalism seems off for her character, and the Doctor going along with it is even worse, and the resolution of the main storyline is hampered by the inclusion of a incredibly poorly handled threat from humanity itself that is "solved" in an even more hackneyed and lazy way. Following two of the best episodes of the season, this one REALLY stands out, particularly because the writer - Frank Cottrell Boyce - has such a good pedigree, he's been lauded by many as a gifted screenwriter, he's collaborated with the likes of Michael Winterbottom, and he's also got a reputation as a very good writer of children's fiction. So to have him produce a fantastical story like this with a heavy child cast would seem like the perfect fit.... but it all just falls flat, and it's such a pity - this could have (and shoulve have) been so much better than it turned out to be. The story starts well, and when I first watched it I initially was greatly enjoying it, there was a fantastical quality to it that I found endearing. As it went on, however, the cracks REALLY began to show and by the end I felt extremely disappointed in the whole thing. The episode ended up feeling like a refugee from the RTD era, as if Boyce hadn't really been keeping up with the show since Moffat took over, and threw something together that felt like it might fit in with the tone of Rusty's time in charge. I've mentioned that same kind of thing in regards to other episodes during the Moffat era - particularly in regards to Chris Chibnall - and it is unfair to RTD himself, since it suggests his own work was similarly disappointing. The major difference was that RTD had a mad talent for throwing together a sequence of unfocused or disconnected elements around the big emotional core of whatever point he was trying to make, and did it in such a way that it was often a couple of days before you went from admiring what a stunning story you'd just seen was to going,"Hang on a minute... but then what about <x>?" The almost cargo-cult attempts by the likes of Chibnall failed in that simply aping that style wasn't enough to draw everything together into a magical mess that enthralled and swept away the audience in spite of the flaws in the foundation of the story. It's like there was a checklist of things to do to get the episode to meet the RTD "standard", and by simply including them the writer felt the whole would prove more than the sum of its parts. When RTD wrote it, more often than not he would succeed in doing just that, but other writers have struggled to hit the same target, and in this episode I feel like Boyce similarly fails. The shot of the Earth in space, the use of mediated images (a particular RTD favorite), and particularly the disconnect between the local and global really stood out as reminders of RTD's time in charge. In the RTD era, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too by having massive world-changing events happen completely out in the open with no way of explaining them away.... but then he also wanted to continue to have contemporary London reflect "our" world as well, so these massive, shaking events would have zero impact. During Moffat's era, careful attention was usually placed on making sure these big events were kept from the public, explained away or simply written out.... except for those RTD-like episodes like The Power of Three where it all comes out into the open again. This episode is like that - if a forest suddenly covered the entire planet (or even "just" London) I'd still expect there to be tens of thousands of people wandering about on the "streets" anyway, as opposed to a work crew of about 5 Government dudes, a mom on a bicycle and a small class of kids on a field trip. We see through the use of media the worldwide affect this global forest has had, but it's all treated in an oddly detached manner, like it is more of an inconvenience than a catastrophe - the global impact never feels real, even when the big global threat is coming and the world itself is seemingly at threat, we're so locally-focused that it has zero impact. The resolution to that threat is appallingly handled, a little girl makes a vague "everything is okay" speech into every phone in the world (Moffat, one suspects, would open an episode with this and make it the source of panic and terror) and then we're left to assume that every Government/military dictatorship in the world just kind of shrugged and went,"Okay, let's listen to the small anonymous child!" To make things even worse, with the threat finally dealt with, the global forest just... disappears? And the Doctor then calmly explains that everybody will just forget this happened like they did the last time, as if civilization/technology in 1908 is anything compared to 2015 - hell, in the episode itself we see the kids all eagerly taking selfies in the giant forest, even if literally every human being on the planet suddenly "forgot" the forest, there is a worldwide and permanent record of the event on billions of recordings/photographs etc - I mean Jesus Christ, Nelson's Column fell over! But it ticks off the checklist of things that happened in the RTD era, even if RTD himself would have probably heavily rewritten such an episode if it had even come his way (he also would have included a middle class family huddled together in fear in their living room, with maybe a crash zoom on some trees sitting menacingly close to the window).   But this isn't necessarily Boyce's fault (after all, look at his writing history!), the whole episode kinda feels like an afterthought in EVERY aspect, not just in the writing. It's like Moffat had one more episode to fit in to the season and came up with a loose premise, and then the cast and crew just kinda sleepwalked their way through it. Technically it furthers Danny and Clara's relationship, but while others have found the chemistry between them lacking, until this episode I'd thought the show had done a pretty good job of showcasing in only a few episodes the development of their relationship from the early awkwardness to the growing bond and familiarity between them. Here, as Danny discovers for himself that Clara has been lying about breaking off her travels with the Doctor, I felt for the first time like the relationship was contrived, the two feeling more forced together than a natural match. Given this is the last episode before the big finale which heavily features that relationship, this wasn't really a good sign. Danny feels so detached from everything going on, including his own love life, that it makes his character feel like the same kind of shallow reflection of whatever the story required that plagued Clara herself during the back half of season 7. His discovery, confrontation and then almost casual understanding and soft ultimatum felt like the product of a one-dimensional "super guy" from some lousy Internet writer's fanfiction, and hardly the work of the man who wrote 24 Hour Party People. But, as said, Boyce is done the disservice of nobody but the set designers seeming to have brought their A-Game to the episode. Special effects have always been wonky in this show, but they're particularly bad when Maebh finds herself menaced by wolves in the shadows of a bush. Boyce tries to call back to this scene in the epilogue, which makes me think what he put down on paper had far more behind it than the dross we got to see on the screen. What Boyce can be blamed for, however, is one of the most stupid, ill-conceived and, yes, dangerous things to ever happen in an episode of Doctor Who. The plot of the story is that a giant forest has suddenly sprouted up all over the world, and a little girl called Maebh (looking like red riding hood - later she is chased by wolves!) comes racing through the forest to the TARDIS. She believes she was "sent" by Clara ("Miss") who is unaware she is even missing from her class of remedial/special-needs/troublemaker students who have been spending the night in the London Museum. Maebh hears voices, thoughts that come to her and tell her a perplexing series of often conflicting things, confusing and frightening her. The Doctor eventually figures out from her homework (left in the TARDIS by Clara who was doing marking) that Maebh has been warned by one of these thoughts that giant solar flare like the one from Time Heist is coming and that it will destroy all life on the planet. That's all fine and dandy, but the reveal of this scene includes an off-hand remark by the Doctor that is dangerous and irresponsible in the real world, which is a far different thing that the amusing "dangerous and irresponsible" we get from him in the show. Maebh hears voices in her head, so they give her medication so she won't hear the voices. When the Doctor learns this, he reacts with disgust and proclaims that this is a foolish notion, that she doesn't need her medication and that it is in fact hurting rather than helping. Now I'm a big believer in Hanlon's Razor, and I have to assume the idea here was meant to be based around the idea of adults ignoring children (Clara reminds him he is just as guilty of this), but how can anybody involved in making this episode not have seen how dangerous a message this was putting out. Hey people with severe mental issues that require careful medication to control, medication that you don't like taking and that you feel may curtail your creative impulses or dampen what you consider your real self! Guess what! The Doctor - the brave and smart and hopeful inspiring figure - says that you don't need your medication at all! Sure, arguments can be made that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but it is a dangerous and irresponsible chance for the show to take, and its removal could have happened easily with a little editing or rewriting... which just further serves to reinforce my suspicion that this episode was very much an afterthought.  With the threat established after the Doctor manages to "slow" the thoughts racing at Maebh, he comes to the grim conclusion that there is no hope - the solar flare is coming and it will destroy all life on the planet. The "life-force" of the Earth will survive and eventually recover, but it's the end for humanity. Clara immediately decides that they need to get the kids to the TARDIS so they can use it as a lifeboat, which the Doctor is happy to agree with, having taken a surprisingly fatalistic (and out of character) approach to the problem. Once they arrive however, Clara explains that she only said what she said to convince HIM to return to the TARDIS. The kids won't have a "real" life as intergalactic refugees dumped on some planet somewhere, they belong with their families. Danny won't leave the kids till he is sure they're back with their families, and Clara won't leave Danny. It SHOULD be a touching moment, where she proves her devotion/love for Danny by making this sacrifice, but it falls flat because it feels so out of character for Clara to just give up and accept there is no option but to stand by and allow the deaths of billions of people (remember she was the one who convinced the Doctors this was the wrong thing to do in Day of the Doctor). She wants the Doctor to go and live on, leaving them all to die here on THEIR planet. There is a nice callback to Kill the Moon (the other disappointment of this season) where the Doctor recalls her own words to him - he walks the earth, he breathes the air, it is HIS planet too - but she shuts that down with a "You're welcome" and an instruction to leave and go save whatever planet comes "next". That he so meekly accepts this feels enormously out of character, which would be okay if it felt earned within the context of the episode itself. It does not, and simply feels like a way of creating false drama before the Doctor gets the epiphany which quite frankly you'd think he would have had 30 minutes earlier if they didn't need to make up time. They've seen Government workers try to burn the forests only to discover they are flameproof via some nonsense about controlling oxygen, and it finally clicks home to the Doctor what a giant solar flare + flameproof trees means - to be fair, he does call himself Doctor Idiot for not seeing it sooner. Rushing after Clara, Danny and the kids, he convinces them to return and gives a hilariously creepy lecture explaining what he has figured out is the solution to the trees - trees!  After a brief and awful bit where they discover the world's Governments are going to use a mass defoliant, which is resolved in an enormously unsatisfying way, the adventure is basically over. Satisfied the world is going to be saved, the Doctor can't convince anyone but Clara to actually pop up into space to watch it happen on a global scale, where he does freely admit that maybe this theory will prove wrong and all life WILL be destroyed after all. It doesn't, of course, the trees absorb the impact of the solar flare without anybody (including the people wandering about outside) getting hurt, and then they magically all turn into pixie dust and blow away on the wind. The Conservative Party will announce a mass tree-felling project since they now know the planet will just pop up new forests overnight when humans are in trouble, but that's a problem for a snarky future webcomic or fanfic to deal with. He rather condescendingly tells her that humanity will forget this ever happened and it'll turn into fairy tales about the spooky forest, which makes no sense at all. Somewhere else we get a brief shot of Missy watching the same solar flare hit and grumble that she loves surprises, while looking rather put out that humanity wasn't destroyed. Given what we later learn about who she is and what her plan is, it is difficult to see exactly what benefit the destruction of the human race would have been for her, but ALSO given what we later learn about who she is, it makes a disturbing amount of sense that she'd have contradictory goals. Finally, Maebh and her mother return home where, in a brief callback to the wolves from earlier, she senses somebody watching from the bushes in their driveway. This turns out to be her missing sister, whose disappearance apparently caused her to go off the deep end in the first place, and she excitedly declares that she knew she would return. Some people when this first episode aired expressed some confusion as to how the trees brought her back to life or created her from nothing, which is - I think - a complete misreading of the situation. Throughout the episode we hear that her sister disappeared at some earlier point, and I think some people took that to be code for her being murdered or committing suicide or being kidnapped by rapists or something. It seems clear to me that when Maebh called every single person on the planet (God I hated that resolution, have I mentioned that?) and asked for her sister to come home, one of the people who got that call was her sister, who based on the way she is dressed in the final scene strikes me as a TROUBLED TEEN who probably ran away from home or something. Getting the call and hearing her sister's voice convinced her to come home, and the episode ends on a saccharine sweet, utterly unearned and unaffecting ending. In the Forest of the Night is a deeply disappointing episode. It had potential, as most every Doctor Who story does, but a mixture of poorly chosen tone by the writer, the seeming lack of effort from most of the crew (this is probably deeply unfair, I imagine they work VERY hard), some poorly handled characterization, and a resolution that leaves a lot to be desired meant that it was at best forgettable and at worst the delivery system for an incredibly dangerous backhanded message about people with mental conditions not taking their medication. There is an attempt to further the Clara/Danny relationship that feels flat, and even Capaldi's as always excellent Doctor fails to carry the material to anything beyond passable. I had high hopes for a Frank Cottrell Boyce episode of Doctor Who, and I actually hope he does get another shot at this, because I'd like to think this was just an aberration, and that a second time he could deliver the goods. Sadly, he sure as hell didn't this time.
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Jan 25, 2015 02:44
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I liked it.
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Jan 25, 2015 03:10
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I didn't feel as strongly about it just after it first aired, in fact I thought it was an endearing little story with a few weird parts that fell flat. Within a day I had already come to dislike it, though, and since then time has only elevated its faults/problems, and I found those much harder to forgive/ignore than when I rewatch some of RTD's "worst" episodes. What did you like about it?
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Jan 25, 2015 03:12
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The visuals are good, and I like the main premise. It is an endearing little episode with some faults. The main thing is i didn't feel the episode was broken by the 'dangerous' part. I'm not saying it's a great episode, unlike the two that came before it, but I liked it anyway.
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Jan 25, 2015 03:19
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Occupation is going to go loving Krakatoa if we ever get to this episode and that is going to be the only entertainment it will ever give me.
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Jan 25, 2015 03:21
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