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Yeah, I remember when I used to aggressively defend this game on message boards; at the time, I thought there were a lot of little points in the setting that people missed. Of course, some 15 years later, I'm a bit more jaded. I don't think I've played FFVIII since FFX came out, and I've read a lot more classic SF and Russian literature since then. I'm very interested in what this LP brings back up. And yeah, if you're drawing 100 spells in battle, you're totally doing it wrong. (For some reason, I thought I'd voted on the initial GF names--mainly, I wanted ColdEthyl for Shiva. Quezacotl's probably better off not using my usual name for him: "Chalupa.")
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Dec 6, 2014 01:25
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That's pretty interesting to know. I, too, heard the internet rumor that each disc was done by a different team. I look forward to learning all the stuff I missed. Here's to looking forward to an FFVIII LP that's as informative as Elentor's FFVII LP!
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Dec 6, 2014 01:39
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I will defend the story to the death. Mostly.
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Dec 6, 2014 02:13
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Kheldarn posted:That's pretty interesting to know. I, too, heard the internet rumor that each disc was done by a different team. I look forward to learning all the stuff I missed. That would be awesome. I've been following Elentor's since I joined. There probably is a lot of things I didn't know about FF8, and if this LP will be informative, that'd be awesome.
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Dec 6, 2014 02:49
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Silegna posted:Then...what. How in the world did he go from writing FF7 to...this? He didn't write VII on his own. He had a couple helpers. A bloke named Kitase and one or two others. Of course, FFX is still much better written than VIII. How did he screw up so badly between VII and X? Maybe time limitations? The game does feel rushed at points and I know of at least one somewhat large plot point they started to elude to and then just dropped. As for "a different team wrote each disk", do you know what game was actually the culmination of several people writing each area? Or "era" would perhaps be the better word? Chrono Trigger, everyone's beloved SNES JRPG. I forget the exact order but the point is that each segment of the game was handled by someone else. Yet it all seems to come together. And then there's FFVIII, all done by one guy, and it has a ton of crap that feels disjointed and just kind of crammed together. In short, it feels more like a team effort than Trigger does.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:26
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Lack of good editorial oversight can make a one man project into an unfocused, incoherent clusterfuck. When several teams are writing bits together, the story has to make sense to everyone, not just the guy with it all in his head. So the author was probably largely left to his own devices.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:52
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To be fair, writing for videogames is notoriously hard because you're at the mercy of whatever everyone else wants to do. Especially when you have a FMV team and a boss encounters team and accounting and the rest of corporate all breathing down your neck. Everyone puts out a clunker sometimes. The fact that I mostly got the story in VIII while I had no loving clue how things fit in VII is pretty telling, though. At least you knew who the actual villain was in VIII. e: That is to say, all the incoherent weirdness of plot was secondary to the overall arc of the story. It went from point A to point B, but it went through points R, F, and 34 first.
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Dec 6, 2014 05:33
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Part Seven: The SeeD Exam, Part 1 Here's Squall, all dressed up for his field exam.  Once you put the uniform on, you have to do the exam, so make sure anything you want to do to prepare is done before that.  You don't even get to run from the dorm to the directory, it cuts straight to Quistis waiting around. This is the SeeD theme, which plays throughout this briefing:   : Squall! Over here! Off-camera, Squall takes the extremely long way around and comes up from the front gate. : I'll be announcing the squad assignments for the exam now. Let's see... You'll be with... Zell Dincht. Quite a lively fellow. I really like how the characters emote in this game, like Squall's hand-on-hip pose here. He's already sick of Zell. : I'm afraid that's not possible.I also like this little exchange between Squall and Quistis; Quistis is Squall's CO here, so it's inappropriate for him to question the squad decision, but Quistis isn't bothered. She treats Squall more like an equal than a subordinate. : Over here, Zell! After Quistis calls out for Zell, we cut to an FMV.   Bruce Lee over here is Zell. I think this is an FMV that was mostly to show off, because it doesn't really serve much other purpose.   Well, it does give us that shot of Zell doing a backflip.  And this shot of Zell pointing at himself/Zell's tribal face tattoo. Note: as pointed out by ApplesandOranges, the SeeD exam is flipped in this FMV.  Quistis mentioned in the Fire Cavern that Squall and Seifer were very talented students, and it carries through a lot in dialogue around Garden. As the player, we don't know anybody, and it's believable that Squall doesn't either, but everybody knows Squall. He's good, and word gets around when you're good.  Again with the emoting. Zell goes for the handshake, but Squall crosses his arms and turns away. Neither says anything about it.  gently caress off, I'm trying to analyse.  : You don't get along with Seifer, do you? Heard he whooped you pretty bad this morning.Yeah, he drat near took Squall's head off.  As usual, Squall takes a more professional, distant approach. He and Zell are just classmates, they're not friends. This isn't a conversation you would really need to have with a classmate. : I bet you he doesn't think so. Look, Seifer's just being a pain in the rear end. All you have to do is ignore him.This isn't the first time we've been given this advice today.  They're both right, it is none of his business. By the way, Quistis really is finishing his sentence - Squall's line doesn't finish coming up before Quistis's does. : Ahem... Excuse me, but...Quistis knows exactly how it looks when she does that in front of another student. : That Seifer you're talking about... He's your squad leader.What? Whose loving decision was that?  I agree with Zell completely. I mean, I hate to belabour the point, but he almost killed Squall this morning. : It can't be changed.Read: it was done on purpose. : Seifer! Are you here? Here's the man himself, not even having changed into his uniform.  This is probably why Seifer's not expelled, but who let him be on the drat disciplinary committee? : You're the squad leader. Good luck to you. Seifer's pose here is pure arrogance, I love it.  : I hate it when people wish me luck. Save those words for a bad student who needs them, eh?It should be noted that Seifer is only a couple months younger than Quistis; like her, he's older than Squall, and also holds a position of relative authority, both as the head of the disciplinary committee and as the squad leader. He's a clear foil to Squall, but he's also acting as foil to Instructor Trepe here. : Ok then.    Seifer shrugs this off, but he swipes his arm when he tells Fujin and Raijin to put Quistis on "the list", which betrays his actual anger. His pride is hurt.  : (The list...? What is it?)This is kind of a weird line. I think that it's just Squall misinterpreting Seifer's line as being about a literal thing. I don't think "the list" actually comes up again. Quistis doesn't seem to care. : Well then. You're all assigned to Squad B. I'll be the instructor in charge. Teamwork is of the utmost importance. Let's get through this exam, everyone!: Listen up! Teamwork means staying out of my way. It's a Squad B rule. Don't you forget it!Again, Seifer is playing the foil to Quistis. Even though she has real authority, she talks to the squad as being more equal, using "let's" and having a more open tone, while Seifer talks down to the others and uses a non-inclusive imperative.  You can see how mad Zell is, and how cool Squall is, in this shot. It seems like other people are more bothered by Seifer's attitude than he is.  It's a neat detail that you can actually read the directory when the camera is at this angle. Headmaster Cid: This exam will involve 12 members from Squads A through D... ...He says, addressing only Squad B. Headmaster Cid: You will be proceeding to a real battlefield. Obviously, the battles are for real. Life and death, victory and defeat, honor and disgrace... Each of these go hand in hand. There's only one way or the other. Man, save the speeches for convocation or whatever.  Cid seems a little bit more excited for this exam than the students are. Headmaster Cid: You will be accompanied by 9 SeeD members. Should you fail, these members shall get the job done. They always do. Well, that's one less worry on your mind. "Hey, if you die, the real SeeDs will do the job anyway, so don't worry too much."  Headmaster Cid: Learn from them, obey their commands and accomplish the mission. Prove yourself worthy of becoming a member of SeeD. Best of luck. Yeah, thanks.   So, we file out. Because this game uses analog control, you usually end up running, which I think is funny next to Seifer and Zell just walking out.  Despite the fact that we headed towards the front gate, we end up in the parking lot. It's not important, but it bugs me.  Everyone gets in the yellow car and we finally head out.  There's even a shot of the car driving out of Garden, rather than the game just dumping us on the map.  Wow, nobody has a seatbelt on? I hope the GF can unbreak your necks if we hit something. : .........Squall learned his lesson about showing off his gunblade when he got yelled at earlier. : C'mon, man!: .........: Just a peek! Squall doesn't even move during this whole exchange, while Zell is always moving. : Tch, fine...Good. Now sit down and enjoy the ride. : Yeah, yeah...   Zell is visibly disturbed by Squall's no-selling this.   This is the first line in the exchange that even makes him turn his head. : .........  Zell basically never stops moving in this sequence, while the other three are pretty restrained. He's shadow boxing here. : Stop that... It's annoying.The player is supposed to be just as annoyed by Zell's antics as Seifer is, I think.  PS, Seifer's a prick.  Wasn't Zell just telling Squall that he had to ignore Seifer?  I think they're both going to get points off for misconduct. : ...Instructor... Who was that girl in the infirmary this morning?: Was someone there? I didn't notice anybody.I always thought this exchange was stupid, since the girl had clearly left before Quistis walked in. : Is there a problem?: No...not really... : I have Chicken-wuss and a guy who just reached puberty in my squad... Quistis is just so disappointed.  Oh, by the way, that entire exchange took place in the Garden driveway, and we have to actually drive to town now.  Wow, man. You shoulda taken care of that during free time if it was gonna be a problem.    This is the first time we're seeing Balamb the town. It's a nice little seaside town, and we'll be seeing a lot more of it later.  Right now, though, we have somewhere to be. : Ain't no turning back now.  There's no time to be scared. We're on the clock. : Don't disappoint me now.Seifer's a douche, but he knows how good Squall is and he respects that.   Once Squall gets out of the car, the player has no control.  But once we're here, we do. I cannot fathom why.  Now it's straight onto the boat. During this exam, you get docked points if you talk to anybody, so I'm keeping mum.  And we're off!  Over the horizon, our destination begins to come into view.  So let's go back inside for our briefing. : Well, these are the members of Squad B.  Everyone is doing that with their hands because it's the SeeD salute, if you're confused. Xu: Seifer, how many times has it been now? : Oh, I just love these exams... Are you guys as excited for this briefing as I am?   Xu: Our client for this mission is the Dollet Dukedom Parliament. For some reason, I find it very amusing that Dollet is a dukedom. It seems antiquated. Xu: A request for SeeD was made 18 hours ago. Good to know that this operation, which is to be carried out by people still in training, has been extensively planned.  Behind Xu here is a useless map of Dollet.  Considering this from a gameplay standpoint, it becomes very funny. Dollet takes up about three screens, so just imagine someone fighting in that space for two days. Xu: Currently, they have retreated into the nearby mountains and are reorganizing their troops. That's the current status. Now onto the mission objective.  Xu: We're to make a landing at Lapin Beach. We're to eliminate the remaining G-Army within the city and liberate it A.S.A.P. I'm sure this will take an hour, at most. We'll be home in time for dinner.  That seems doable for 12 people, sure. : So, what are WE supposed to do?Xu: SeeD candidates are to eliminate the G-Army inside the city. : Sounds important!: Sounds boring.They're both right. : So what you're saying is, we do all the little, dirty work...Xu: ......... Oh, it hardly needs to be said, but... The order to withdraw takes priority. Do not forget. We're almost there. We anticipate a battle as soon as we disembark. Just be prepared. That's all. Any questions, talk to Quistis. Whew. Well, now we know what we have to do, at least.  If you choose to talk to anyone here, you get points off. : We'll be landing pretty soon. Get ready.: Alright.: Roger.: Yeah, yeah... Well then, Squall. Go see what's going on outside. If you choose to disobey Seifer here, you get points off. : .......Ok.: Good. Because it's MY order.Well, let's go see what's going on outside.  Ah, my old friend, the moon.  And my other old friend, missiles.  As the missiles pass by, the moon ripples, revealing that is was just a reflection in the water!   Then we get a look at the SeeD boats. It's apparently much brighter than that shot of the moon might make you think.  Here's Squall, enjoying the wind in his hair.   And admiring his photo of scenic Dollet, with optional tourist overlay that points out all the sights.  There's the real thing!   Seems like a bad time to go sunbathing.  Let's do this.  There are barriers in the water.   I think this is supposed to be cool, with the boat jumping the barrier, but it just sort of smashes through it. It honestly looks kind of lame.    This is another one of those seamless transitions from FMV to real-time. It results in the very pretty-looking boat vomiting some very rough-looking character models onto the beach. : Ok, you are to secure the Central Square! Be sure to equip your GF before you head into battle!For reminders like this, the game tends to use "equip" instead of "junction", which makes it clearer what junctioning actually does.  Yes! Finally! Next time! Cool Ghost fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 08:15
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Trivia: during Zell's FMV, the SeeD logo is erroneously flipped for no reason. I also still question whoever it was that thought a guy who never even passed the SeeD exam and with a known attitude problem to be in charge of the disciplinary committee. It's never mentioned whether or not Fujin and Raijin are SeeDs, actually.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:14
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Amphibious landings into active war zones are best when performed by undisciplined adolescents with fancy swords. It's not like taking a beachhead or urban combat are some of the most dangerous and difficult to plan actions in modern warfare. I hope this client didn't lay out much cash for the privilege of getting the rear end in a top hat squad.
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Dec 6, 2014 12:21
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Pvt.Scott posted:I hope this client didn't lay out much cash for the privilege of getting the rear end in a top hat squad. They did wait over two days before deciding, "You know, maybe we should get some back-up after all." Kinda weird to have a SeeD exam in an actual battlefield, especially since they got the request 18 hours ago and have probably had the exam scheduled from before the conflict even broke out. How the hell do they plan these exams anyway? Is there a generic conflict they make up if no one is having skirmishes that day?
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Dec 6, 2014 12:44
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Pvt.Scott posted:Amphibious landings into active war zones are best when performed by undisciplined adolescents with fancy swords. It's not like taking a beachhead or urban combat are some of the most dangerous and difficult to plan actions in modern warfare. I hope this client didn't lay out much cash for the privilege of getting the rear end in a top hat squad. Note that the examination squad we see is one of the last to hit the beach, the heavy fighting was stated to have moved on toward the mountains before SeeD was brought in, the exam candidates are only one element in a combat mission that is comprised mostly of veteran elite mercenaries, and since this is a final graduation exercise for what is basically a military academy they're not exactly untrained. Logically, the purpose of such an exam is to expose the troops to a live-fire situation that carries a real element of danger without them being in control of anything important. Which is exactly what the briefing implies their role to be.
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Dec 6, 2014 12:52
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I think someone in game or the Ultimania or something actually says the "Disciplinary Committee" is just self-appointed, it's just a stupid non-SeeD sanctioned club with a scary name which is why no one gives a gently caress what they do or threaten to do. I remember being in elementary and there being "School Patrol" and not being particularly effective beyond the minds of 8 year olds.
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Dec 6, 2014 13:29
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NikkolasKing posted:Of course, FFX is still much better written than VIII. How did he screw up so badly between VII and X? Maybe time limitations? The game does feel rushed at points and I know of at least one somewhat large plot point they started to elude to and then just dropped. At least Squall isn't Tidus. Tidus is the absolute worst FF lead.
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Dec 6, 2014 13:37
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Kajeesus posted:At least Squall isn't Tidus. Tidus is the absolute worst FF lead. Tidus gets a free pass from me. He's the bedrock of my Blitzball franchise! E: I didn't know West Point dumped their officers in training into a random war zone as a final exam! Pvt.Scott fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 14:51
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Zell was one of my first crushes. And is probably the only reason I bothered to finish this game.
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Dec 6, 2014 15:14
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The topic of "why the hell is Seifer put in charge when he's a known gently caress-up?" has been brought up several times on this forum since I joined. My favorite answer is that it was a challenge to his Squad mates. Sometimes you are going to get a not-so-good commander you are going to want to contradict and maybe even abandon. Seifer is a good test of character and discipline.
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Dec 6, 2014 15:24
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It could have been both that and a test for Seifer if he is mature enough to be trusted with anything.
Iretep fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 15:28
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Squall is a known lone wolf and Zell clearly has some kind of ADHD. Given that Squall is the favorite of instructor Quistis "please and thank you" Trepe, it seems like a good test of their ability to follow orders.
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Dec 6, 2014 15:55
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I do seem to recall one of the NPCs you can talk to before getting on the ship specifically notes that your squad is the "Problem Team." I suppose it makes sense it was a test for everyone involved since Seifer's, Squall's and Zell's personalities all clash so heavily.
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Dec 6, 2014 16:02
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NikkolasKing posted:I do seem to recall one of the NPCs you can talk to before getting on the ship specifically notes that your squad is the "Problem Team." I suppose it makes sense it was a test for everyone involved since Seifer's, Squall's and Zell's personalities all clash so heavily.  +  +  =
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Dec 6, 2014 16:18
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Zell was the first-ever instance of that kind of facial tattoo I ever saw. When Mike Tyson got a similar one, I wondered why he was trying so hard for FFVIII cosplay.
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Dec 6, 2014 17:06
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Cool Ghost posted:
Rejected Zell's handshake count: 1 If you keep an eye out, there will be more. It's not just Squall who does it either.
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Dec 6, 2014 17:49
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Mega64 posted:They did wait over two days before deciding, "You know, maybe we should get some back-up after all." I've always assumed that it's some sort of wait-list. Once a trainee reaches a certain point in the skills/training, he's considered exam-qualified, then you just wait on the list until a situation comes up where SeeD's mercs are requested. So if you qualify at the right time like Squall, you get into an exam right away. But if you qualify during a peaceful month, you don't take the exam until some random dictator decides to start some poo poo. Also, since it's pretty clear that the trainees are considered superfluous (the real soldiers will get the job done, they always do...), it's reasonable to assume that every time SeeD deploys large-scale SeeD forces, they bring along some trainees for the field exam and assign them some trivial mission.
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Dec 6, 2014 18:11
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It's an interesting point - I don't remember anyone specifically saying that they've known for any length of time that the field exam would be this particular day, but they did hold a written test the week before, indicating that they were ramping up for the field exam that far in advance. Maybe SeeD gets enough missions that they knew there would be a good one for the field exam in the right general time frame, and when this one came in, they picked it and rounded everyone up in a hurry.
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Dec 6, 2014 18:17
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This was a great sequence in the actual game. Gave me much higher hopes than the game was able to fulfill. Oh, and here's the video itself if anyone is interested. There may be spoilers in the recommended videos as a warning.
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Dec 6, 2014 18:21
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MagusofStars posted:I've always assumed that it's some sort of wait-list. Once a trainee reaches a certain point in the skills/training, he's considered exam-qualified, then you just wait on the list until a situation comes up where SeeD's mercs are requested. So if you qualify at the right time like Squall, you get into an exam right away. But if you qualify during a peaceful month, you don't take the exam until some random dictator decides to start some poo poo. This is pretty much my reasoning on it, too. It also explains how there were rumours about the final exam being on that day at the beginning of the game, rather than everyone knowing when it would be because finals were announced months ahead of time. NikkolasKing posted:The topic of "why the hell is Seifer put in charge when he's a known gently caress-up?" has been brought up several times on this forum since I joined. My favorite answer is that it was a challenge to his Squad mates. Sometimes you are going to get a not-so-good commander you are going to want to contradict and maybe even abandon. Seifer is a good test of character and discipline. Seifer is also older than the others, has some experience having taken the exam before (and remember, the failure rate is high - that one guy in the 2F hallway had taken the exam twice before, failing likely isn't held against you) and is in a position of leadership. Besides that, there's an element of removal from the planners on this one - Seifer's appointment as captain isn't popular with Zell or Quistis, but his reputation with the students might not extend to the brass.
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Dec 6, 2014 18:22
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Hunter Noventa posted:This was a great sequence in the actual game. Gave me much higher hopes than the game was able to fulfill. Gotta admit, that music is awesome. I'm pretty sure it plays throughout the exam too.
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Dec 6, 2014 20:25
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I like Zell, he may have ADHD and be a huge goof, but he's just so earnest and cheerful (without being obnoxiously so).
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Dec 6, 2014 20:31
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Cool Ghost posted:Seifer is also older than the others, has some experience having taken the exam before (and remember, the failure rate is high - that one guy in the 2F hallway had taken the exam twice before, failing likely isn't held against you) and is in a position of leadership. Besides that, there's an element of removal from the planners on this one - Seifer's appointment as captain isn't popular with Zell or Quistis, but his reputation with the students might not extend to the brass. I dunno, people talk about Seifer like he's a gently caress-up when it comes to the exams, in particular because he's also called a "prodigy." He's clearly skilled, so the only reason he keeps failing is because he's an arrogant cavalier rear end in a top hat with a bad attitude; i.e. not good leadership material when taking untrained rookies into life-or-death situations, who are expected to follow orders without question. How much older is Seifer than Squall? How did he have the opportunity to fail the exam repeatedly, when Squall is taking it for the first time? Maybe he was "skipped ahead" like Quistis because he was so good, but supposedly Squall is an excellent student too, so you'd think he'd be in the same boat. So also, what's the deal with the Fire Cavern pre-test. It sounds like every SeeD candidate has to do it, and it involves going and subduing Ifrit to bind him to your whims. So does that mean Ifrit is not a unique being, and they just have a whole stack of him? If so, why doesn't every candidate have their own Ifrit GF? And based on all the pre-test preparation that students are expected to go through, it seems like this final was expected to be coming up more than 18 hours before. People seemed to be wondering why Squall put off the Fire Cavern until the last minute. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 20:41
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Seifer is 18 to Squall's 17. I don't think it takes much imagination to make an educated guess about why Seifer might have taken the test several times while this is Squall's first attempt. Seifer is quite a bit more enthusiastic than Squall about this whole Mercenary Thing and probably jumped at the first chance he got to try and take the SeeD Exam while Squall easily could have put it off until he had no choice but to do it or it was expected of him to at least try it. Or, if you want to be nicer to Squall, maybe he was just being more prudent and held off on trying until he felt reasonably confident he would succeed whereas Seifer would have taken the test the first chance he got, even if he wasn't fully prepared. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 20:57
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I don't know if this is mentioned anywhere, but do Squall and Seifer actually harbor any hostile feelings towards each other? Everyone assumes Squall is mad about Seifer cheating during their sparring match, and Seifer does occasionally put Squall down, but they obviously decided to spar together, and notice that Squall complained about Zell, and both Zell and Quistis were unhappy with Seifer, but Squall never said (or thought!) he had any issues being on Seifer's team.Schwartzcough posted:So also, what's the deal with the Fire Cavern pre-test. It sounds like every SeeD candidate has to do it, and it involves going and subduing Ifrit to bind him to your whims. So does that mean Ifrit is not a unique being, and they just have a whole stack of him? If so, why doesn't every candidate have their own Ifrit GF? It's mentioned somewhere that the field test (requirement for the field exam) is "to carry out a small mission or subdue a GF, under the supervision of a SeeD member." I think we're just supposed to assume that there are a ton of unique guardian forces out there that we just never see, and when there aren't any combat-ready ones, you're just sent on a solo mission somewhere.
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Dec 6, 2014 21:03
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There's a scene coming up that kind of addresses your question about if Squall and Seifer harbor any hostile feelings towards each other.
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Dec 6, 2014 21:23
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NikkolasKing posted:There's a scene coming up that kind of addresses your question about if Squall and Seifer harbor any hostile feelings towards each other. Is it the one where they have a sloppy, kissy, gropey session?
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Dec 6, 2014 21:35
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Obligatum VII posted:I like Zell, he may have ADHD and be a huge goof, but he's just so earnest and cheerful (without being obnoxiously so).
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Dec 6, 2014 21:40
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I dunno, I always found Zell to be overly obnoxious compared to any other character. But again, this is going too far ahead.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:21
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Cool Ghost posted:
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Dec 6, 2014 23:20
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When I played this game when I was younger I never got the whole junctioning system so just tried to level up as much as I could when I got stuck. This obviously didn't help but I always enjoy seeing folk breaking the game apart in a variety of ways so this should be good!
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Dec 7, 2014 02:14
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While Dollet might be a dubious location for a bunch of child soldiers with no field experience, I really love the SeeD Exam sequence. That's the thing with this game, it really knows how to draw you in at the outset.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:05
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So, FFVII has the protagonists start out as radical eco-terrorists destroying civilian installations and FFVIII starts with the party as gun-for-hire child soldiers. How does FFIX start out? Isn't the main character part of a criminal gang masquerading as a traveling show? It's been a long time. Those are all pretty cool starting points that aren't "farmboy oversleeps and accidentally saves the world while stumbling around." I like it.
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Dec 7, 2014 07:15
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