Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Bobby Digital
Sep 4, 2009


https://twitter.com/nbajambook/status/1377820067237408770?s=21

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

RoboChrist 9000
Dec 14, 2006

mater dolorosa

Winty posted:

I'm feeling Awesome! Nothing bad will ever happen!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MznHdJReoeo
Changing the world through SOFTWARE. Building new paradigms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruLtzaD235k
Your future begins... Now.

Wasn't Castles in the Sky 2002ish? I definitely remember hearing it all the time on the radio ride home from high school and that was post-9/11.

dialhforhero
Apr 3, 2008


WWE (aka the WWF) is actually still doing that kind of poo poo ityool 2021 and it is pretty loving sad.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!




Nothing felt better than hitting the degauss button on an old CRT monitor.

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

"Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?"


Cartoon Man posted:



Nothing felt better than hitting the degauss button on an old CRT monitor.

Itís true. I can hear the PHWONNNNNNG in my head just thinking about it.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



it sucks rear end that 3d pinball isnt included in windows anymore, it was so good

dialhforhero
Apr 3, 2008


Cartoon Man posted:



Nothing felt better than climbing the ropes in gym class or the firemanís pole on the playground. Then followed by hitting the degauss button on an old CRT monitor.

Ftfy

DreadUnknown
Nov 4, 2020


I will never ever miss hauling those loving pieces of poo poo monitors ever, Im super happy with my light flatscreens thanks.
The worst offender was this large Goldstar tube tv that I just gave away so I wouldnt have to deal with moving it.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!



CRTs are coming back because retro gamers are insane

Len has a new favorite as of 22:52 on Apr 4, 2021

Ok Comboomer
Oct 20, 2007



Shibawanko posted:

it sucks rear end that 3d pinball isnt included in windows anymore, it was so good

Iím p. sure you can download it

BaldDwarfOnPCP
Jun 26, 2019





Len posted:

CRTs are coming back because retro gamers are insanet

I watched a whole youtube where they extoll the virtues of one of the last, biggest flat screen crts, the sorny trinitron 21"

They ran Control on it and decided it was way better that way and it made me think

I'm the most 90s thing

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



Len posted:

CRTs are coming back because retro gamers are insanet

I always have that story about someone i knew that refused to get an flat panel monitor until like 2014. He was absolutely convinced that CRTs were a huge improvement over them and they were actually detrimental to gaming. He'd insist that if he switched he would be unable to play at the level he's accustomed to. If he was beaten by someone who had a flat panel he would insist they were a hacker or their internet was better, because no way a CRT could put him at a disadvantage.

He eventually got one when his CRT conked out and buying a new one was impossible because no one makes them anymore.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



crt's really are better though, not more practical maybe but better for old games definitely

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!



Len posted:

CRTs are coming back because retro gamers are insane

DMorbid
Jan 6, 2011

Hello! I see you.




twistedmentat posted:

I always have that story about someone i knew that refused to get an flat panel monitor until like 2014. He was absolutely convinced that CRTs were a huge improvement over them and they were actually detrimental to gaming. He'd insist that if he switched he would be unable to play at the level he's accustomed to. If he was beaten by someone who had a flat panel he would insist they were a hacker or their internet was better, because no way a CRT could put him at a disadvantage.

He eventually got one when his CRT conked out and buying a new one was impossible because no one makes them anymore.
While that guy was obviously a dumbass, flat panels do add a few frames of lag compared to a CRT, more if the flat panel has to deinterlace a 480i image from an old console. It's not usually a big problem and modern games usually work around it well enough, but anything that requires frame-perfect inputs or just precise timing in general (such as old rhythm games) becomes more difficult to play. Even games that don't necessarily require that much precision can feel pretty unresponsive if the display is laggy enough.

Flat panels also don't know how to deal with the weird resolutions retro games often use. Basically everything pre-Dreamcast usually displayed 240p, which in this case was technically 480i but using only 240 of the fields to create a progressive image. Some games like Silent Hill, Virtua Fighter 2 and Chrono Cross frequently switched between 240p and regular 480i, which was seamless on a CRT but causes a sync drop for a few seconds on an HDTV.

Also, connecting a retro console directly into a flat panel often looks like poo poo even if it has the necessary inputs (when's the last time you've seen an S-video connector?) because the TV takes the 320x240 or 640x480 image and has to fill the high-def screen with it. Since built-in upscalers aren't designed with games in mind, the result can be pretty bad especially when they attempt to deinterlace 240p output (it's technically a 480i signal, after all). The quality is less of an issue with component or RGB cables, but composite is going to look like complete poo poo on a modern display whereas it'd at least be presentable on a CRT.

Or, to summarize:

Len posted:

CRTs are coming back because retro gamers are insane

DMorbid has a new favorite as of 23:08 on Apr 4, 2021

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


Shibawanko posted:

crt's really are better though, not more practical maybe but better for old games definitely

Better how?

For some consoles, you need a CRT to show how they'd have looked on one back in the day, since a lot of the programming on those consoles revolved around the mechanics of them. The Atari 2600, for example, didn't have a frame buffer but just a register that could hole one scan line at a time and they had to refresh its contents to draw the next line on the screen. This and the vertical and horizontal retrace intervals let them pull off some clever poo poo that they wouldn't have been able to do otherwise with the limits of the hardware.

So, okay, sure, I guess if you want to play the 2600 port of Pacman and see how lovely it looked back in the day with its sprites that flickered because they could only draw a given ghost on every other field, they're better. But in what other sense are they definitely better for old games?

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Phanatic posted:

But in what other sense are they definitely better for old games?
Modern screens have a hard time getting dithered translucency hacks working right (i.e. Sonic waterfalls).

And old programmers/artists definitely used the limitations in mind when crafting games. See how sprite graphics sometimes fudge things because the CRt display would would up making a better viewing experience than an infinitely sharp pixel accurate display, or how cruft was added to make text appear sharper or more legible on an old screen (FF6's credits text during Celes' magitek armor walk).

DMorbid
Jan 6, 2011

Hello! I see you.




FilthyImp posted:

Modern screens have a hard time getting dithered translucency hacks working right (i.e. Sonic waterfalls).

And old programmers/artists definitely used the limitations in mind when crafting games. See how sprite graphics sometimes fudge things because the CRt display would would up making a better viewing experience than an infinitely sharp pixel accurate display, or how cruft was added to make text appear sharper or more legible on an old screen (FF6's credits text during Celes' magitek armor walk).
Even on a CRT, these effects don't quite show up properly if you're using RGB or component cables. They were designed specifically for the heavily blurred composite and RF output because, well, that's what everyone had in the 90s.

Naturally, retro gamers being retro gamers, there have been many arguments over whether the pin-sharp image you get with RGB and a high quality CRT TV (or broadcast monitor) is the "proper" way to experience these games, because these graphics tricks were designed for composite and RF video and therefore it's more authentic to use lovely video cables.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



DMorbid posted:

While that guy was obviously a dumbass, flat panels do add a few frames of lag compared to a CRT, more if the flat panel has to deinterlace a 480i image from an old console. It's not usually a big problem and modern games usually work around it well enough, but anything that requires frame-perfect inputs or just precise timing in general (such as old rhythm games) becomes more difficult to play. Even games that don't necessarily require that much precision can feel pretty unresponsive if the display is laggy enough.

Flat panels also don't know how to deal with the weird resolutions retro games often use. Basically everything pre-Dreamcast usually displayed 240p, which in this case was technically 480i but using only 240 of the fields to create a progressive image. Some games like Silent Hill, Virtua Fighter 2 and Chrono Cross frequently switched between 240p and regular 480i, which was seamless on a CRT but causes a sync drop for a few seconds on an HDTV.

Also, connecting a retro console directly into a flat panel often looks like poo poo even if it has the necessary inputs (when's the last time you've seen an S-video connector?) because the TV takes the 320x240 or 640x480 image and has to fill the high-def screen with it. Since built-in upscalers aren't designed with games in mind, the result can be pretty bad especially when they attempt to deinterlace 240p output (it's technically a 480i signal, after all). The quality is less of an issue with component or RGB cables, but composite is going to look like complete poo poo on a modern display whereas it'd at least be presentable on a CRT.

Or, to summarize:

Yea, that would make sense if he was a retro gamer, but no, he was huge into Battlefield and CoD. I think he just heard about when they were coming out about how they weren't the best for gaming and never updated his knowlage.

TITTIEKISSER69
Mar 19, 2005

I'M JUST HERE TO KISS TITTIESS AND WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!
(AND GET EVERYBODY FIRED)


FilthyImp posted:

Modern screens have a hard time getting dithered translucency hacks working right (i.e. Sonic waterfalls).

And old programmers/artists definitely used the limitations in mind when crafting games. See how sprite graphics sometimes fudge things because the CRt display would would up making a better viewing experience than an infinitely sharp pixel accurate display, or how cruft was added to make text appear sharper or more legible on an old screen (FF6's credits text during Celes' magitek armor walk).

Terra's magitek armor walk. I'm playing it these days on my SNES Classic and my LED TV. Never gave it much thought but next time I start from the beginning I'll watch for that. I just turn on the 'scanlines' effect and call it good, which is what I did with my laptop and ZSnes.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



TITTIEKISSER69 posted:

Terra's magitek armor walk.
Goddamn it I knew it was wrong. At least I didn't go with my first instinct (no, wait Tifa isn't right...).

I actually noticed it when comparing the music from the SNES Classic to the cart. The text on the cart does a nice fade-in and settles pretty uniformly. The text on the SNES Classic (no filters) had areas where the luminosity is higher on the font, *and* there are sections of the font in that scene where there are accompanying areas of grey/black around the letters to aid in legibility on a CRT. On the LCD, it just looks kind of low-res and artifacty if you look for it.

For example, the A's are consistently brighter along the top-to-bottom-right diagonal, with the left diagonal slightly darker. It ends up making the text look slightly like it's raised on the CRT.

Kind of made me realize there was a lot of artistry behind even getting text to appear nicely on sprite games.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Phanatic posted:

Better how?

For some consoles, you need a CRT to show how they'd have looked on one back in the day, since a lot of the programming on those consoles revolved around the mechanics of them. The Atari 2600, for example, didn't have a frame buffer but just a register that could hole one scan line at a time and they had to refresh its contents to draw the next line on the screen. This and the vertical and horizontal retrace intervals let them pull off some clever poo poo that they wouldn't have been able to do otherwise with the limits of the hardware.

So, okay, sure, I guess if you want to play the 2600 port of Pacman and see how lovely it looked back in the day with its sprites that flickered because they could only draw a given ghost on every other field, they're better. But in what other sense are they definitely better for old games?

theres a few other reasons too, any 240p console has graphics designed around pixel bleed, where darker pixels are drawn bigger in the data but appear smaller in practice so they act as shading. emulators have filters that mimic this but it just doesnt look as cool. the screen is also more fluorescent with deeper colors and blacks than a typical lcd. playing a snes on a crt just looks good

i live in europe though where we have scart and really easy hookup for RGB out, in the US i gather its a lot more complicated. for me personally it also just made sense to pick up a free crt for gaming because i dont own any big fancy tv in the first place and im basically only interested in retro games rather than modern ones

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



DMorbid posted:

Even on a CRT, these effects don't quite show up properly if you're using RGB or component cables. They were designed specifically for the heavily blurred composite and RF output because, well, that's what everyone had in the 90s.

Naturally, retro gamers being retro gamers, there have been many arguments over whether the pin-sharp image you get with RGB and a high quality CRT TV (or broadcast monitor) is the "proper" way to experience these games, because these graphics tricks were designed for composite and RF video and therefore it's more authentic to use lovely video cables.

no this just isnt true, it still looks better in RGB vs composite. RGB doesnt stop the pixel bleed effect, it just removes noise and artifacts and gives better colors. ive got a switch i can flick on my scart switch to go from composite to RGB and composite never looks better, i've tried

DMorbid
Jan 6, 2011

Hello! I see you.




Shibawanko posted:

no this just isnt true, it still looks better in RGB vs composite. RGB doesnt stop the pixel bleed effect, it just removes noise and artifacts and gives better colors. ive got a switch i can flick on my scart switch to go from composite to RGB and composite never looks better, i've tried
Fair enough. I haven't used composite on anything in years because it's compo-poo poo, but I have seen many slapfights about effects such as the Sonic waterfalls supposedly looking better over composite so I got confused.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



DMorbid posted:

Fair enough. I haven't used composite on anything in years because it's compo-poo poo, but I have seen many slapfights about effects such as the Sonic waterfalls supposedly looking better over composite so I got confused.

im not sure, with composite it also really depends and there's a lot of difference in quality, composite on my AV famicom looks almost like RGB

again though i dont want to be Mr Nerd and i get why people dont want to get a crt but there are cases like mine where it just made sense to get one because theyre free, have nice graphics and i dont have space issues

Pastry of the Year
Apr 12, 2013





these motherfuckers and their ubiquitous CD-ROMs full of shovelware

LimaBiker
Dec 9, 2020


I still have a bigass black IBM crt monitor sitting in the attic. I have a few old PCs and low res games just look like crap on modern high res lcd monitors.
Not actually using it at the moment, but it's not really in the way. Probably will sell it at some point, and then regret it a few years later.

Ambitious Spider
Feb 13, 2012





Lipstick Apathy

Shibawanko posted:

im not sure, with composite it also really depends and there's a lot of difference in quality, composite on my AV famicom looks almost like RGB

again though i dont want to be Mr Nerd and i get why people dont want to get a crt but there are cases like mine where it just made sense to get one because theyre free, have nice graphics and i dont have space issues

Svideo on my av famicom and snes both look excellent on my pvm. That said Iím lazy and I still buy and play most retro stuff on my switch

Wacky Delly
Apr 2, 2008






FilthyImp posted:

Kind of made me realize there was a lot of artistry behind even getting text to appear nicely on sprite games.
A lot more thought was put into that than I realized.

I don't recall if I found this account from this thread, but it is relevant to this discussion: https://twitter.com/ruuupu1

https://twitter.com/ruuupu1/status/1365618659851345921?s=20

I wouldn't always say the CRT output looks better, but it does illustrate why the sprites look like they do.

Neito
Feb 18, 2009

Finally, an avatar the describes my love of tech, my love of anime, and why I'll never see a real girl naked.


I think the big problem is that,nerds being nerds, they get super pedantic about how other people enjoy things, so it's never presented as "I enjoy thing X in Y manner for reason Z", it's always "You're not enjoying X right, because you're not doing it in Y manner, and here's reason Z why you're wrong". I've seen arguments break down to dumbass gatekeeping statements like "You haven't actually played this game, because you haven't played it on a CRT".

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007






https://twitter.com/CRTpixels/status/1379134688049123333

Of course there's a Twitter account dedicated to these comparisons.

Cartoon Man
Jan 31, 2004

Nyah hah hah hah hah!


https://i.imgur.com/fOZ0c1C.mp4

Sweevo
Nov 8, 2007




Dammit Knuth, this is why it takes you 40 years to write half a book!

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

At least these days with OLEDs (or whatever the newest stuff is) we're finally getting away from the washed out backlit look of the first flatscreen monitors. It was definitely rough going for a while and I totally understood the continued appeal of CRTs, even though the drawbacks still outweighed (literally) the benefits

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



Wacky Delly posted:

A lot more thought was put into that than I realized.

I don't recall if I found this account from this thread, but it is relevant to this discussion: https://twitter.com/ruuupu1

https://twitter.com/ruuupu1/status/1365618659851345921?s=20

I wouldn't always say the CRT output looks better, but it does illustrate why the sprites look like they do.

The limitations of the systems has always been incorporated into the designs. Take a look at SMB3; the clouds and bushes are the same sprite with different color because it saves on the memory. Likewise sprites were designed in a way that CRT technology smooths them because the system lacked resolution and memory to handle larger image maps.

But saying that you aren't playing the same game or "getting the real experience" goes right into the gatekeeping crazies-territory.

Sweevo
Nov 8, 2007




CRTs are fine if you want to use them. The worst is when people try to mimic the effect with fake CRT filters, except they turn everything up to 11 and make it look like a broken TV from 1972.

RenegadeStyle1
Jun 7, 2005

Baby Come Back

I dunno the newer TV sprites look better on everyone except arguably the BOF one.

Iron Crowned
May 6, 2003


RenegadeStyle1 posted:

I dunno the newer TV sprites look better on everyone except arguably the BOF one.

I like how the gradients have a smoothing to them, but otherwise both seem fine to me

You could probably plunk some anti-aliasing into an emulator and get a similar enough effect.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I'm the camp that firmly thinks the original CRT on the sprites looks best, it has the most texture and otherwise looks a little too abstracted in a way that comes across more primitive than stylized.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

Iron Crowned posted:

I like how the gradients have a smoothing to them, but otherwise both seem fine to me

You could probably plunk some anti-aliasing into an emulator and get a similar enough effect.

I will say modern emulator filters / AI upscaling have finally gotten to the point where I can just go hog wild with them and it doesn't feel wrong at all. For a while they were just blurry crap though.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply