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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester
Oct 3, 2000


Is Newey gonna kill a Brazilian religious zealot again but this time on water?

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the kentucky quid
Jan 19, 2014



Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:

Is Newey gonna kill a Brazilian religious zealot again but this time on water?

Reasons to start watching America's Cup.

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


Cojawfee posted:

We need some other kind of major manufacturer to join in. Though unlike rally and endurance racing, formula 1 is entirely worthless aside from advertising your CNC machining business.

Indeed. Toyota 2016.

Varkk
Apr 17, 2004




Butt Wizard posted:

There's all sorts of rumours about Oracle's boat having some wacky self-leveling technology that wasn't strictly legal

Didn't those rumours start on Whale Oil, which is hardly a credible source. He just posts what he is paid to and whatever poo poo his disease addled brain makes up for filler content between the paid shilling pieces.
Grant Dalton himself said they wouldn't challenge it because there was no evidence at all of it besides the whole boat passed scrutineering anyway so it was deemed legal.

I hope TeamNZ does what happened last time when Oracle and Alinghi had their own race just between them and they went with Luis Vuitton to create their own high-end match racing Regatta and leave the AC to the billionaires to play with in their own private clubs.

But back on topic of this thread, I would like to see Jaguar get back in to F1. I always liked them with Lauda as principle and Irvine as their main driver.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!



It's worth checking out the Open Letter as well - I couldn't help reading it in a Kiwi accent.

An open letter from Team New Zealand posted:

nadir (98 comments) says:
September 26th, 2013 at 11:02 pm

The “automatic levelling sysytem”

Its not computer based its (in principle) a very simple mechanical system and TNZ either didn’t think of it or couldnt make it work. Here’s how it works (I’m slighlty sketchy on some of the exact detail but here goes):

The prohibition on stored power means you cannot use stored power to apply a force on rigging or the dagger boards. So when Dean Barker wants to alter the angle of the foil he yells out “Hydro” and the grinders grind. He uses a little toggle switch on the steering wheel to drive an electrical linear actuator (that is a small motor that applies a force to the hydralic valve that sends hydrualic power to the ram which works on the dagger board to provide a force that moves it forward, thus altering the angle of attack of the horizontal part. TNZ thought OTUSA used the same system until late August when OTUSA asked the race committee to approve a system they had for altering the angle of attack of the foils. The OTUSA system was innovative in that the valve was connected directly to the hydraulic ram and the electric actuator connected (obviously) directly to the valve. This means on Oracle there is a direct linkage from the hull to the actuator to the valve to the ram to the dagger board box (which tilts with the dagger board inside it). Th real innovation is that the dagger board moves and acts on that actuator which opens the valve and self corrects the angle of attack as long as their is pressure on from the grinders. Spithill still provides human intervention in the same way as TNZ with a toggle switch to set the position he wants but the Oracle setup then self corrects around that position.

So when OTUSA asked for approval it was given in several parts. One part was the self leveling system as a an entire concept, the other was the fact that there is now an electrical motor (which uses stored energy) connected to the foil which is outside the intent of the rules. But the electronic actuator is only capable of applying a force of 75 lbs, and in the range Oracle were using it (just to open/close a valve) more likely around 20 lbs. This is what TNZ protested – that OTUSA were using stored energy to apply force to a foil – not that the self correcting system as a whole was outside the rules as it is clearly not so long as stored energy is not used to move the foil. TNZ made the argument that if there was no hydraulic pressure, then OTUSA could apply force to the dagger board with the actuator. The RC said that was a nonsense as clearly the actuator – only able to apply a maximum of 75 lbs pressure and more likely 25 lbs could not influence the foil at all given the tons of pressure acting on it when in use. TNZ may have been technically correct but in practice – no effect, and I think the RC relied on another rule that allowed incidental or trivial exceptions to the no stored power concept. OTUSA had been using this system for a long time – they didnt install it during the final when they used the delay card. They obviously did other things – redistribution of weight and reprfiling of the bows the two most obvious things, but the self levelling system was not new. This is obvious as TNZ became aware of it in late august and put their protest in on about Sep 3 i.e., before the Americas Cup races started.

The way it was explained to me was that TNZ missed a trick on the self levelling and didnt have the time resources or a spare boat to crash develop it. Also, Oracle apparently got lucky because they designed their boat as a non-foiling upwind boat as they thought it impossible to get sufficuent extra speed from foiling, given that the foiling boats have to travel 10 or 15 degrees lower into the wind (i.e covering more distance) than a skimming boat. Downwind was fine, but OTUSA built a boat that couldn’t foil upwind – which meant a less strong boat as the risk of falling off the foils is greater than going downwind. SO OTUSA optimised their boat for upwind skimming not foiling – you can see it is much sleeker and has less cross section. Then when they discovered they could foil up wind they had a significant windage advantage in the leg that counts – upwind and went foiling anyway. TNZ also designed their boat so that the hull provides some lift to help foil on the more difficult upwind leg – Oracles doesnt. The hull providing lift also incurs drag.

Americas Cup is and always has been a tech race as well as a sailing race and resources win. I suspect TNZ may have realised some of their shortcomings but could not change their development path whereas Oracle could throw away a bunch of work and go off in a different direction if necessary. We did bloody well to get as close as we did, but a tech race is like boxing – a good big man will always beat a good small man.

One other anecdote I saw in print was a story by a computer consultant who worked for Oracle on a contract to do hull modelling using simulations. He said they were constrained by a lack of sufficient processing capacity – that is remarkable given the sort of resources Oracle could mobilise and shows how high tech and costly the Cup has gotten.

And if you prefer diagrams and offical bodies passing judgement:
http://noticeboard.americascup.com/...11/09/PI_52.pdf

So there was self-levelling technology, it wasn't strictly legal (stored energy) but was deemed to be legal (the stored energy opened a valve, not moved the board)

Butt Wizard
Nov 3, 2005

It was a pornography store. I was buying pornography.

Varkk posted:

Didn't those rumours start on Whale Oil, which is hardly a credible source. He just posts what he is paid to and whatever poo poo his disease addled brain makes up for filler content between the paid shilling pieces.
Grant Dalton himself said they wouldn't challenge it because there was no evidence at all of it besides the whole boat passed scrutineering anyway so it was deemed legal.

I hope TeamNZ does what happened last time when Oracle and Alinghi had their own race just between them and they went with Luis Vuitton to create their own high-end match racing Regatta and leave the AC to the billionaires to play with in their own private clubs.

From what I've heard (not from anyone who has read the official TNZ report, mind you) there was 'something' but we're unlikely to ever find out because it's something that TNZ may want to reverse engineer to use on the next challenge. So it could be six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I always find the 'start our own high-end regatta' calls to be kind of confusing. There are heaps of top-end sailing competitions that no one gives a poo poo about, the only reason the America's Cup matters is...well, the trophy. Kind of like the A1GP vs. F1 thing. Without the F1 teams, any other series is just another series. If that actually worked then there would have been an F1 breakaway long ago.

Brainwrong
Mar 20, 2004

RIP Bobby K
Poland's Rose. Like a cabbage in the wind.


Boats are gay

krushgroove
Oct 22, 2007

Disapproving look


They may be, but I do plan to watch the next America's Cup, the last one was pretty cool to watch, and FOM/FIA/F1 could learn a lot from the on-screen tech they use.

Jon Von Anchovi
Sep 5, 2014



1500quidporsche posted:

No wonder Adrian Newey loves this poo poo.

But how much does it flex in the wind?

thegasman2000
Feb 12, 2005
Update my TFLC log? BOLLOCKS!
/


Jon Von Anchovi posted:

But how much does it flex in the water?

Fixed.

I love the fact Newey is a cheating bastard... Reminds the world is Brits will stomp on their face for our own gains.

Riso
Oct 11, 2008

by merry exmarx


djssniper posted:

or Ferdinand Piech in charge of VAG, never seen Bernie lose tbh

CVC is about to ditch Bernie, so he will for a change.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011


thegasman2000 posted:

Fixed.

I love the fact Newey is a cheating bastard...
As opposed to everyone else in F1?

I don't mean to defend Newey but come on, it's a cheaters' sport.

krushgroove
Oct 22, 2007

Disapproving look


Yeah it's a game of staying ahead of the rules, really.

Also it looks like the next America's Cup isn't until 2017...what the hell are we going to talk about in this thread until the start of the season?

Carth Dookie
Jan 28, 2013



Grimey Drawer

krushgroove posted:

what the hell are we going to talk about in this thread until the start of the season?


Formula E.

Fumble
Sep 4, 2006



Alonso, Button and Magnussen have all just confirmed with Sauber for 2015 to complete their Sutil, Gutiérrez, Ericsson, van der Garde, Nasr line up.

Dubs
Mar 6, 2007

Stroll Own Zone.
Disregard Stroll outside zone.


Fumble posted:

Alonso, Button and Magnussen have all just confirmed with Sauber for 2015 to complete their Sutil, Gutiérrez, Ericsson, van der Garde, Nasr line up.

noice

Gmaz
Apr 3, 2011


Extremely strong line up imo

Big Huski Boi
Jun 28, 2007

Huski Chocolate is a lifestyle, not only a product. It's about adventure & expedition. Living life to the fullest. It's a perfect recovery drink after training, because of the healthy carbohydrate and protein content, easy to digest and perfect for replenishing tired muscles.

mclaren say no driver decision will be made until next week at the earliest. i assume by "week" they mean "year." jokes aside, i think these discussions have little do with button and magnussen. there is something much bigger going on that needs to be resolved before they can move forward with their drivers.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Is it the title sponsor deal?

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


They hosed up the chassis again, didn't they.

Dubs
Mar 6, 2007

Stroll Own Zone.
Disregard Stroll outside zone.


SAP

n8r
Jul 3, 2003

I helped Lowtax become a cyborg and all I got was this lousy avatar

The last America's cup was F1 porn on water.

Dubs
Mar 6, 2007

Stroll Own Zone.
Disregard Stroll outside zone.


FAP

the kentucky quid
Jan 19, 2014



The driver announcement will definitely be before the first race and will definitely be announced alongside the title sponsor.

Big Huski Boi
Jun 28, 2007

Huski Chocolate is a lifestyle, not only a product. It's about adventure & expedition. Living life to the fullest. It's a perfect recovery drink after training, because of the healthy carbohydrate and protein content, easy to digest and perfect for replenishing tired muscles.

mclaren aren't going to sign a sponsor until they start winning again bc otherwise no one will give them the money dennis thinks the team deserves. it's a matter of sponsors wanting to pay for mclaren 2014 and dennis charging for mclaren 1966-future. it's pretty simple.

Rhopunzel
Jan 6, 2006

Stroll together, win together


be nice wicka posted:

mclaren aren't going to sign a sponsor until they start winning again bc otherwise no one will give them the money dennis thinks the team deserves. it's a matter of sponsors wanting to pay for mclaren 2014 and dennis charging for mclaren 1966-future. it's pretty simple.

yeah from what i heard a bunch of potential title sponsors walked away because lol good luck with that asking price

Fumble
Sep 4, 2006



be nice wicka posted:

mclaren aren't going to sign a sponsor until they start winning again bc otherwise no one will give them the money dennis thinks the team deserves. it's a matter of sponsors wanting to pay for mclaren 2014 and dennis charging for mclaren 1966-future. it's pretty simple.

Hugo Boss are returning to the fatherland next season too. Perhaps if Alonso does return then Santander could take some of the slack up, and demand that Button gets the other seat since he's already on their books.

CratSock
Aug 5, 2004

Sock Wielding Assassin



1500quidporsche posted:

The driver announcement will definitely be before the first race and will definitely be announced alongside the title sponsor.

Probably.

...well, maybe.

...it's conceivably possible.






... nope, sorry chaps, maybe next month.

Big Huski Boi
Jun 28, 2007

Huski Chocolate is a lifestyle, not only a product. It's about adventure & expedition. Living life to the fullest. It's a perfect recovery drink after training, because of the healthy carbohydrate and protein content, easy to digest and perfect for replenishing tired muscles.

Rhopunzel posted:

yeah from what i heard a bunch of potential title sponsors walked away because lol good luck with that asking price

also, knowing ron dennis, he's not going to accept an offer from just any company. so if you look back at the rumors from the beginning of the year, perhaps sony was in play, but they didn't offer enough money. and perhaps rakuten offered enough, but ron dennis didn't want to be sponsored by a random japanese retailer.

the kentucky quid
Jan 19, 2014



Its worth noting that it has been mentioned in a few places that Martini approached McLaren before they went to Williams. McLaren's asking price was supposedly so ridiculous that they decided to go with a team that almost didn't score any points last year.

Rhopunzel
Jan 6, 2006

Stroll together, win together


1500quidporsche posted:

Its worth noting that it has been mentioned in a few places that Martini approached McLaren before they went to Williams. McLaren's asking price was supposedly so ridiculous that they decided to go with a team that almost didn't score any points last year.

and went on to totally clout them the year after

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


Uniqlo McLaren.

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


be nice wicka posted:

and perhaps rakuten offered enough, but ron dennis didn't want to be sponsored by a random japanese retailer.


I don't understand this but whatever.

Big Huski Boi
Jun 28, 2007

Huski Chocolate is a lifestyle, not only a product. It's about adventure & expedition. Living life to the fullest. It's a perfect recovery drink after training, because of the healthy carbohydrate and protein content, easy to digest and perfect for replenishing tired muscles.

Human Grand Prix posted:

I don't understand this but whatever.

what don't you understand?

Big Huski Boi
Jun 28, 2007

Huski Chocolate is a lifestyle, not only a product. It's about adventure & expedition. Living life to the fullest. It's a perfect recovery drink after training, because of the healthy carbohydrate and protein content, easy to digest and perfect for replenishing tired muscles.

1500quidporsche posted:

Its worth noting that it has been mentioned in a few places that Martini approached McLaren before they went to Williams. McLaren's asking price was supposedly so ridiculous that they decided to go with a team that almost didn't score any points last year.

martini pays williams $15m, which is less than the $20m mclaren receives from johnnie walker. vodafone were paying mclaren $75m yearly. imagine the kind of the money sap and mobil pay and you'll start to understand why mclaren are able to wait on signing a title sponsor.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


McLaren should be sponsored by that weird Japanese company that sponsored all those pink-liveried sportscars.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Human Grand Prix posted:

I don't understand this but whatever.

Ron Dennis, in addition to being a fraud, is racist.

Rhopunzel
Jan 6, 2006

Stroll together, win together


Alain Post posted:

Ron Dennis, in addition to being a fraud, is racist.

another quality contribution by 4-time WDC Alain Post

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


be nice wicka posted:

what don't you understand?

McLaren wants a certain amount money and who cares where it comes from.

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Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


The golden era of sponsorship was not only the tobacco era, but also the era where Italian heat exchanger manufacturers from Piedmont sponsored grand prix teams.

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