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Sounds like US sanctions on Venezuela are a great propaganda tool for Maduro, do you think they are worth it?
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Jun 20, 2022 18:37
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VitalSigns posted:Sounds like US sanctions on Venezuela are a great propaganda tool for Maduro, do you think they are worth it? No and they really weren’t to begin with. Maduro is still in power and the economy is “recovering” so they’re clearly not having the intended effect. Some of you asked for the removal of individual sanctions which is pretty loving ludicrous considering what some members of the government are accused of, but it’s clear that the broader economic sanctions have only served to strengthen Maduro by ironically giving him an out. The US tried to hasten the collapse that Maduro had created and was already happening before the sanctions, killing the credibility of the domestic opposition right as they were almost driving him to a breaking point. Let’s not forget, right before the Trump sanctions package, Maduro was selling bonds to Goldman Sachs. PDVSA was going to sell off CITGO assets to Rosneft. This has given Maduro enough of an out he can just shamelessly drop all semblance of socialism remaining and turn into a much easier to maintain (for a dictator) crony capitalist economy, ensuring his perpetuity in power thanks to the entrenchment of security forces in every aspect of the average Venezuelan’s life.
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Jun 20, 2022 19:07
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Within the context of US mainstream media being trustworthy and those ones you named as russian lies, I immediately remembered that incident where the west was lying about Maduro setting fire to aid trucks and it was only those untrustworthy media orgs who were correctly reporting it as it happened. It took a month before the west admitted it was the other side that set fire to their own aid trucks. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/world/americas/venezuela-aid-fire-video.html Also I don't remember if Maduro was blocking all aid, I thought it was USAid being blocked because of the fear the US was using aid to organise a coup, which I think was verified much later after the fact.
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Jun 20, 2022 19:34
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Marenghi posted:Within the context of US mainstream media being trustworthy and those ones you named as russian lies, I immediately remembered that incident where the west was lying about Maduro setting fire to aid trucks and it was only those untrustworthy media orgs who were correctly reporting it as it happened. You didn’t reply to anything I said and instead repeated the same thing you said on the previous post, just so you wouldn’t have to say that sanctions caused everything. Also Venezuela is in the west. Same time zone as Miami.
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Jun 20, 2022 19:48
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Mild optimism for the short future of LatAm, with the US utterly failing at toppling Bolivia and Venezuela to the point where they forget who Guadio even is, Chile and Colombia becoming pinker and Lula being a strong candidate to winning in Brazil. Pink tides are temporary and frail, but it's great to see this wave of nazi granddaughters and grandfathers losing election after election. Combine this with the US being lead by a senile old man who is actively colapsing its economy and we might see Latin America be able to rule and administer their countries in relative peace. It's too late to save hundreds of thousands of dead Brazillians and possibly too late to save Electro and Petorbras too, but who knows, the future isn't set in stone, it's what we make of it. i fly airplanes posted:Linking Mint Press News? Seriously? Are you mad that he works with Mint Press News while ignoring the factual covers of Anglo newspapers? Is anglo sensitivity that frail? fnox posted:You may find a pattern with the sources and the posters. It’s why it’s so hard to talk about Latin America in this forum, half the time you have to argue against just full blown propaganda and apparently calling it out doesn’t matter. Refer only to Telesur, Grayzone or MintPress, obviously all other news source are biased. lol You seem very interested in leftist criticism of Venezuela yeah fnox posted:
Marenghi posted:Within the context of US mainstream media being trustworthy and those ones you named as russian lies, I immediately remembered that incident where the west was lying about Maduro setting fire to aid trucks and it was only those untrustworthy media orgs who were correctly reporting it as it happened.
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Jun 20, 2022 19:50
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Mans posted:You seem very interested in leftist criticism of Venezuela yeah Not me, they are https://litci.org/en/venezuela-maduros-government-accelerates-re-privatization-and-plundering-of-countrys-resources/ Knock yourself out. Call me a gusano next time, looks like you need it.
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Jun 20, 2022 19:56
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fnox posted:Not me, they are You either are or are not, a gusano. It's for you to decide. You do seem conflicted, giving all indications of being firmly right wing but for some reason refusing to self identify as such. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 20, 2022 20:53
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I didn't know what "gusano" was so I googled it and I see the wikipedia page, while quite sparse, includes it with a link to " List of ethnic slurs by ethnicity § Cubans", so maybe its not a appropriate thing to just label people with? e: I believe this might fall under D&D rule 1.C, as ethnic slurs are pretty insulting.
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Jun 20, 2022 20:57
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I think Fnox is genuine in his criticism of Venezuela's government, he's gotten into granular economic policy gripes elsewhere that suggests that it's more than just "I want to strangle socialism". Though it does seem like it's been a gateway drug towards Russia paranoia in independent media & griping about other leaders (that Evo namedrop lol). Pretty cool to see the return of the pink tide, hopefully it cements itself, the more independence & leftward movement in South America & the Carribean the better, and with the US busy focusing on China, Russia, and Iran it seems like as good a time as any. Hopefully Castillo manages to turn his ship around, and Boric doesn't drift towards the center like so many fear. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 21:03
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Regarde Aduck posted:You either are or are not, a gusano. It's for you to decide. You do seem conflicted, giving all indications of being firmly right wing but for some reason refusing to self identify as such. What the gently caress is right wing to you people even? I'm going to turn this right around and ask you, oh great American leftist, what's so good about Maduro anyway? What is his socialist cred? Please point to me to the wonders of his contribution to the glory of Marxism Leninism. I've seen some of you vaguely describe how he was reducing inequality in some form or another before the sanctions applied, or attempt to attribute some of Chavez' missions to him, but you look at the numbers and they paint the exact opposite picture of what any of you have described. poo poo, you look at Venezuela as it stands, right now, today, and it looks nothing like what you guys want a socialist country to be like. It's almost the exact opposite, which I guess nobody wants to recognize, considering how nobody even remotely wants to talk about it. I've asked for literal years, what is the problem with getting rid of Maduro, and the only answer I've ever received is some horseshit about how he's the only thing preventing the US from taking over. How about neither? Not that that's an option anymore, due to years and years of political struggle, Maduro has finally consolidated his grasp, thanks to half-assed, barely thought out American intervention that somehow simultaneously allows for Teslas to be imported into Caracas but apparently not food or medicine, thus forcing the poor, poor bolibourgeoisie to have to charge actual dollars for food instead of being able to put them through the SIMADI/DICOM cash cyclone like it's a show on Venevision hosted by Daniel Sarcos. Maybe, just maybe, you could fit into your head the idea that there are people out there, Venezuelans, who what they want is not the US, not Guaido and not Maduro, but merely a country that works and not much more than that. A country ran by a civilian government, where oil profits are fairly redistributed and put back into developing an economy and a people that aren't going to need oil in the future. A government that is more transparent, less repressive, less corrupt, but that follows the democratic ideals we have already fought for so many times before. Neurolimal posted:(that Evo namedrop lol). I didn't even notice what you guys were quoting. The gotcha is an out of context quote from 2016, are you loving serious? Do you guys want me to find the something like, 20 or 30 times where I repeatedly stated in like 2018 or 2019 that Maduro would turn Venezuela into the neoliberal hellscape it is today? fnox fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 21:43
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A hit dog will holler. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 21, 2022 01:50
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settle down, please
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Jun 21, 2022 03:04
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This happens literally every single time. You target me, never what I say. So again, I’m going to ask you the simplest question I can ask you, why is Maduro a socialist? What socialist things has he done that merit him remaining in power?
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Jun 21, 2022 07:22
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fnox posted:This happens literally every single time. You target me, never what I say. So again, I’m going to ask you the simplest question I can ask you, why is Maduro a socialist? What socialist things has he done that merit him remaining in power? The US doesn't like Maduro, which makes him socialist. The more the US doesn't like you, the more socialist you are. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 21, 2022 07:28
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fnox posted:This happens literally every single time. You target me, never what I say. So again, I’m going to ask you the simplest question I can ask you, why is Maduro a socialist? What socialist things has he done that merit him remaining in power? Your saying that there has been no good contributionto the Socialist cause that Moduro has made. This may well be accurate, but a lot of people will disagree with you based on the idea that reports from certain sources cannot be trusted. This is a similar problem that you will encounter in a huge amount of current discourse because the purveyors of information have become increasingly obviously politicised. Also the problem not wanting the USA to get rid of Maduro is that they will most likely contribute to people opposing him anyway, even if the person is terrible and it is liable to result in a worse person acquiring power or the complete collapse of all authority. People aren't disagreeing with your wants but are disagreeing on how feasible it is. Mainly because of material support for either side that presently exists over the wishes of the people on the ground.
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Jun 21, 2022 09:41
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Josef bugman posted:Your saying that there has been no good contributionto the Socialist cause that Moduro has made. This may well be accurate, but a lot of people will disagree with you based on the idea that reports from certain sources cannot be trusted. This is a similar problem that you will encounter in a huge amount of current discourse because the purveyors of information have become increasingly obviously politicised. But to what degree is this mistrust justified? Can it really be to the point that it just flat out stalls any and all discussion of the country as merely a US vs global socialism extended Cold War conflict, as frozen in time as that perception of the world is? The original point I was trying to make is precisely that this forum gives far more credence to these obviously flawed sources. In the topic of Venezuela, it goes far enough as to be just a propaganda mouthpiece that actively silences dissent from within the country, and not the type of dissent you can quickly shut down as being US led or rich elites. I'm talking about UNETE, Marea Socialista, PCV. Like seriously, rather than whatever bullshit Guaido is up to I'd rather talk about indigenous land seizures and killings in the Arco Minero by the Venezuelan military, about how Maduro started privatizing the economy again, how he's done a full pivot and stopped attacking Polar because it's no longer politically convenient to him, or all the social programs he's abandoned. I'd rather talk about the literal thousands killed by security forces with complete impunity, the attacks on media and journalists (a huge contributor as to why there's so few unbiased sources, mind you). At which point will this blind cheerleading stop? I've shown examples of what these sources don't cover, how long will people ignore that? Because I don't think any of the support for Maduro that I see in this forum comes from a rational, informed position. It comes from a lot of wilful ignorance, bordering on the kind of poo poo American conservatives do with the casual handwaving of atrocities and incongruences when it is politically inconvenient.
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Jun 21, 2022 10:12
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fnox posted:You didn’t reply to anything I said and instead repeated the same thing you said on the previous post, just so you wouldn’t have to say that sanctions caused everything. My point was that we shouldn't ignore certain sources just because some posters find them disagreeable or biased against America. All media is biased and I was showing how media biased towards America was wrong in that instance while the anti-ones had it right. I don't have time to be drawn into a longer conversation on maduros rule in Venuezula, and if that justifies sanctions and attempted bay of pigs style military coups against him. I don't owe you poo poo outside of the points addressed in my original post. quote:Also Venezuela is in the west. Same time zone as Miami. Save the pedantry for Reddit. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 21, 2022 14:45
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Serious question: if Maduro actually is some kind of neoliberal thatcherite in socialist clothing who wants nothing more than to massacre local tribes, privatize energy, destroy social programs, and shower the elite with gold, why wasn't he invited to the Summit of the Americas to hang out with Biden and his good buddy Bolso who is doing all that to Brazil. Not a gotcha question, I'm seriously wondering why the USA wouldn't be hugging and kissing him like they do to every other neolib tyrant in Latin America, or for that matter like they did to Gorbechev and Yeltsin once they began dismantling the soviet state and ushering in a capitalist oligarchy.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:28
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We are in the west for sure. But no, we are not part of *The West* We are part of the people they are building walls and fences to keep out
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Jun 21, 2022 15:37
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Marenghi posted:I don't have time to be drawn into a longer conversation on maduros rule in Venuezula Pfft. VitalSigns posted:Serious question: if Maduro actually is some kind of neoliberal thatcherite in socialist clothing who wants nothing more than to massacre local tribes, privatize energy, destroy social programs, and shower the elite with gold, why wasn't he invited to the Summit of the Americas to hang out with Biden and his good buddy Bolso who is doing all that to Brazil. Because things aren't as simple as they are portrayed here. For one, Venezuela has maintained the appearance of being radically anti-US, even though that stance has softened as of late. This Summit of the Americas poo poo is actually nothing new for Venezuela, Maduro was already banned from the previous one and the opposition attended instead, also the previous one was essentially a protracted discussion on what to do about the Venezuelan crisis. I don't think this has ever been brought up in this thread, but Maduro really doesn't have many friends left in Latin America, it wouldn't just be the US that doesn't want them there. But also, they are? They've been talking about softening the sanctions now, aren't they? Venezuela has only gotten less democratic, if that was supposed to be the point of the sanctions, to make Maduro heel to a democratic transition, then they should stay in place, right? It's not good optics to suddenly turn all chummy against the guys who've been spending the last 20 years calling you the literal personification of the devil, is what I'm saying. That's something you handle through backchannels, you know, the usual CIA affair. Elias_Maluco posted:We are in the west for sure. But no, we are not part of *The West* I just hate obtuse terminology that places the anglophones as some sort of arbitrary partition of the world when none of those really make sense. I mean, for Latin America, the US is in the north and is far more commonly referred to as such. It sounds really weird to exclude Latin American countries from occidental culture, even though I understand that the West is simply supposed to refer to Western Europe, Canada, the US and Australia.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:09
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fnox posted:
Even American leftists believe the waspy conservative approach of Huntington when otherizing people from Latin America. He didn’t like Catholicism, and only accepted it as Western when found in Europe. P funny imo.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:03
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America Inc. posted:Just check out the LATAM thread in CSPAM. I'm starting to think we don't need 2 threads. Counterpoint: Yes we do.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:59
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Baronjutter posted:The US doesn't like Maduro, which makes him socialist. The more the US doesn't like you, the more socialist you are. This is why leftists hyperfocus on Latin America and Israel/Palestine. There seems to be a lack of care for other anti-authoritarian protests: how often is the conflict in Belarus and Myanmar discussed? Even the use of the term "color revolution" is seen as a pejorative in these circles as manufactured CIA plots. Elias_Maluco posted:We are in the west for sure. But no, we are not part of *The West*
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Jun 21, 2022 21:50
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i fly airplanes posted:This is why leftists hyperfocus on Latin America and Israel/Palestine. There seems to be a lack of care for other anti-authoritarian protests: how often is the conflict in Belarus and Myanmar discussed? Even the use of the term "color revolution" is seen as a pejorative in these circles as manufactured CIA plots. in the case of Chile, rather than walls, helicopters were used to remove elements of the population deemed undesirable by the US' pet strongman, for which they were rewarded with slightly better access to America than some other countries. as such, the price tag on that visa-free access is commonly considered a little high, particularly among groups who know they appear on the list of people to be summarily executed to make the Americans happy.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:26
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Normally when the concept of East vs. West is brought up, it's about some kind of cultural separation, but the US and latin America both have similar cultural traditions that spring from Europe. There's a new term doing the rounds now "global south" to specifically refer to "underdeveloped" nations, which is both probably often inaccurate as well as being derogative. It's supposed to replace "third world" now that most people know what that was being used to mean. And I guess by the classic definition of that term, Venezuela would probably count as second world anyways. VitalSigns posted:Serious question: if Maduro actually is some kind of neoliberal thatcherite in socialist clothing who wants nothing more than to massacre local tribes, privatize energy, destroy social programs, and shower the elite with gold, why wasn't he invited to the Summit of the Americas to hang out with Biden and his good buddy Bolso who is doing all that to Brazil. Well first off, not all bad things are directly aligned with the US. I feel like that should be pretty simple to get. But also, since the reason for not inviting Venezuela was because they're not considered a democracy anymore, and the US isn't recognizing their government as legitimate, but Bolsonaro so far as I know won his election legitimately. And even though he's been strongly implying that he's going to try rigging or rejecting his next election, he hasn't done it yet. I guess it remains to be seen whether Brazil's political system can withstand whatever he's going to try or whether he'll poop himself to death by the time the election rolls around. I saw a few news stories about Bolsonaro trying to secure Biden's support only for Biden to talk past him and talk about the importance of democracy for Brazil, so there's that at least.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:10
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SlothfulCobra posted:Normally when the concept of East vs. West is brought up, it's about some kind of cultural separation, but the US and latin America both have similar cultural traditions that spring from Europe. the "legitimately" next to Bolsonaro's win has a pretty huge asterisk next to it, yes. turns out the US bankrolled the hell out of something they called Operation Carwash with the focus of getting the socialist party candidate taken off the ballot by paid-off judges. case turned out to be absolute horseshit a couple years down the line, but not before the election was firmly in the rear-view mirror. it's a marginally more legitimate election than several past cases: the Obama administration had hoped for a kindler, gentler hand than Bolsonaro's demolishing everything Lula and company had accomplished, and were genuinely unsettled when it turned out they'd done all that work to put a junta cheerleader in charge. but as the story so often goes, a liberal had a choice between socialism and fascism, and they decided they'd risk the second to get rid of the first.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:28
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SlothfulCobra posted:But also, since the reason for not inviting Venezuela was because they're not considered a democracy anymore, and the US isn't recognizing their government as legitimate, but Bolsonaro so far as I know won his election legitimately. And even though he's been strongly implying that he's going to try rigging or rejecting his next election, he hasn't done it yet. I guess it remains to be seen whether Brazil's political system can withstand whatever he's going to try or whether he'll poop himself to death by the time the election rolls around.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:40
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the "legitimately" next to Bolsonaro's win has a pretty huge asterisk next to it, yes. turns out the US bankrolled the hell out of something they called Operation Carwash with the focus of getting the socialist party candidate taken off the ballot by paid-off judges. case turned out to be absolute horseshit a couple years down the line, but not before the election was firmly in the rear-view mirror. Oh man if you think that’s a “huge asterisk”, go look up the conditions under which Maduro got re-elected. Hint, it wasn’t even against Guaido or anyone in the actual opposition, the whole Guaido affair came much later. It was ran against stooges and even said stooges couldn’t stop having their campaign managers shot up by colectivos. Historically low turnout despite forcing critically ill patients to vote in order to get their medicine, no foreign votes, no auditing of the voter registry, Maduro promising gifts and funds left and right for votes. The list goes on. Like if you think Lava Jato should bar Bolsonaro from the summit, Maduro should 100% not be there.
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Jun 22, 2022 06:22
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fnox posted:Oh man if you think that’s a “huge asterisk”, go look up the conditions under which Maduro got re-elected. Hint, it wasn’t even against Guaido or anyone in the actual opposition, the whole Guaido affair came much later. It was ran against stooges and even said stooges couldn’t stop having their campaign managers shot up by colectivos. Historically low turnout despite forcing critically ill patients to vote in order to get their medicine, no foreign votes, no auditing of the voter registry, Maduro promising gifts and funds left and right for votes. The list goes on. running against a patsy whose job it is to lose (and then you murder a bunch of them anyway) is very specifically something we don't penalize people for, mostly because if we did we would not have any friends to invite. probably should be disqualifying, but, well, you know how it is, can't let the perfect be the end of the good. would like to hear more about that last bit, though: can you elaborate? on the face of it, it sounds like a politician promising to do things for people if they vote for him, I'm not seeing the crime against democracy here.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:08
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:would like to hear more about that last bit, though: can you elaborate? on the face of it, it sounds like a politician promising to do things for people if they vote for him, I'm not seeing the crime against democracy here. Uh no. Promising to literally give people money if they vote for you is indeed, a "crime against democracy". It's quite literally the thing you're not supposed to do if you're the government. There's a world of difference between, say, saying you're going to redistribute oil profits to all Venezuelans as some sort of like aid program, and saying that you're gonna give them  if they vote for you. One of these things is quite bad for democracy, actually! And illegal as voting is supposed to be secret and anonymous.Full disclosure, though, the CNE did tell him that this was illegal. Then he did it anyway. This is on top of like, the entire opposition coalition being banned from running, which is why you had Henri Falcon, a former PSUVista, and Javier Bertucci, an evangelical pastor with accounts listed in the Panama Papers. Those were the other 2 candidates. Every serious candidate that polled higher than Maduro was banned from running, or, was otherwise imprisoned or in exile.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:29
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Democrats promised to send everyone a $2k check if they won both Georgia Senate runoffs in January 2021. Promising the masses to give them money, goods and services seems like a good thing?? Anyway, however poo poo Maduro is or isn't, or however legitimate or not Venezuelan democracy is, OAS has a long history of freely and happily associating with extremely undemocratic governments. Selective protestation on fake moral grounds just rings hollow to a lot of people.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:51
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brugroffil posted:Democrats promised to send everyone a $2k check if they won both Georgia Senate runoffs in January 2021. Promising the masses to give them money, goods and services seems like a good thing?? There's a difference between sending everyone money, and sending the people who vote for you money. One of these is legally a bribe, and would require them to surrender the secrecy of their vote, which is the whole reason why it was done. I don't really think this point merits debate, it would be bad in any country in the world for a candidate to be literally buying votes. As for the OAS, I mean, as far as the history of the organization goes, the Summit of the Americas only goes back like 20 something years. I believe Venezuela is the only country to be explicitly denied from attending, other than Cuba which I mean has been banned since the 70's, and Nicaragua, who officially left the organization. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the Venezuelan crisis is the largest of its kind in Latin America in the last 20 odd years, and would warrant at the very least some sort of action from the OAS as they probably shouldn't just stay quiet about the issue.
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Jun 22, 2022 16:02
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Honduras suffered from a right wing coup in 2009. Were they still welcomed at the summits?
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Jun 22, 2022 16:30
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fnox posted:Uh no. Promising to literally give people money if they vote for you is indeed, a "crime against democracy". It's quite literally the thing you're not supposed to do if you're the government. I'd love a government that paid me from the treasury to vote for them, it's not like the status quo where they just funnel the treasury to wall street and military contractors and oil companies instead is any better ... Anyway, are you sure you guys really want to classify partisan judges throwing the opposition candidate in jail on trumped up charges before the election as "democratic"? Because if jailing opponents is democratic then that kinda undercuts your stance that Maduro wasn't democratically elected. Wouldn't it make more sense to just admit that the USA doesn't care about democracy and that's why Bolso was invited to pal around with Biden than to try and defend jailing political opponents as democratic or at least a legitimate means of winning democratically? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 16:49
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brugroffil posted:Honduras suffered from a right wing coup in 2009. Were they still welcomed at the summits? So I guess buying votes is indeed bad. You can Google this, you know? Yes they were, the 6th Summit was in April, Zelaya attended because he was still the president. By the 7th Summit, Zelaya was back in the country. The OAS has denounced both the coup and the subsequent fraudulent elections in Honduras, and both Honduran presidents that followed have had either their families, or themselves in the case of Juan Orlando Hernandez indicted in the US over drug trafficking charges. These are the right wing guys, mind you. The US did block a lot of the resolutions the OAS tried to pass, which is why I don't think it's a very effective organization. The OAS has this treaty called the "Carta Democratica" which is supposed to be the guideline for what the organization should do should democracy in a member nation be threatened. It's been cited 4 times, 3 of these times it's been Venezuela, the only other time was the coup in 2009. VitalSigns posted:Wait why not, I don't see what's undemocratic about that. Jesus loving christ are you people serious? Would you vote for Trump if he gave you 200 bucks so long as you could prove you voted for him? fnox fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 16:54
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fnox posted:
He gave me more than that and I didn't vote for him. So no, I wouldn't because it's not enough to overcome how bad he would hurt me with his policies, but I don't think it was undemocratic that he sent me checks with his name on it and if the president sent me more checks while loving me that's better than now where I get nothing for getting hosed
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Jun 22, 2022 16:58
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VitalSigns posted:He gave me more than that and I didn't vote for him. We're not talking about the same thing. I have no idea why there's some sort of confusion about this. These aren't checks in the mail that are sent to everybody, these are checkpoints, right outside the polling station, where you can go and prove that you voted for Trump by scanning your Patriot Card and signing, in exchange for 200 bucks. In the case of Venezuela it's more like, $4, which quickly turned into $2 by the end of the day due to inflation. Still, bad. No wonder US democracy is such poo poo, what the gently caress are they teaching you people? The exact reason why this is bad is because the right wing assholes you hate so much would abuse it to stay in power forever. The poor would be forced between having a conscience or having food to eat. fnox fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 17:08
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Is the objection that it's a non-secret ballot, or that people got money to vote. If the ballot isn't secret and the government can check who you voted for and intimidate you that's not democratic, but that's bad regardless of whether they also give you money. Giving people money to vote doesn't seem like a problem in itself. I mean yeah if one guy is offering me money that I need to eat and the other isn't, the choice is obvious why would I vote for the guy who isn't doing anything for me
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Jun 22, 2022 17:22
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I have to say trying to argue that buying votes is good, actually, is a really weird turn for people to take on their fnox contrarianism crusade. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 22, 2022 17:22
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 19:35 |
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GimmickMan posted:I have to say trying to argue that buying votes is good, actually, is a really weird turn for people to take on their fnox contrarianism crusade. Well I'd like to ask how you votes with an actually secret ballot? Otherwise isn't that just campaign pledges? I am not being facetious here but genuinely wondering.
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Jun 22, 2022 17:30
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