Search Amazon.com:
Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«44 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011

Just bring your ass to where they got me
So you can feel the hand of the dead body

Mu Zeta posted:

White Christmas is the worst nightmare. Just thinking about millions of years in that room fucks me up.

Not to mention that Hamm's character is isolated for the rest of his life because he's a perv who likes to watch others having sex.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Oh, the world's not so crazy, Kolenkhov. It's the people in it. Life's pretty simple if you just relax.



Lick! The! Whisk! posted:

San Junipero in and of itself is not critical of SJ the location. It is absolutely, 100%, critical of people who ignore essential truths that define them only to playact in some magical consequence-free technopalace, which the ending of San Junipero plays into.

If you live in SJ but you're honest with yourself and your truth, then you're fine. If you use SJ as a way to avoid consequence, loss, reality, then you fall into failure. That's the point of San Junipero, the episode of Black Mirror. Pretending otherwise fundamentally misunderstands the message the show is attempting to send, and it's why the credits sequence is so destructive to its ultimate messaging. A main character lays out a perfectly valid reason why she doesn't want to go (and yes, her claims that Yorkie is being selfish is 100% valid, because assuming that someone was trapped in a loveless marriage of convenience is some absolutely hosed thinking that completely denies her agency), then goes back on it for literally no reason. We are left with exactly two choices: Either she didn't actually care about her dead husband as much as she claimed, ie she was lying, or she ignored the feelings she had for her husband in favor of a woman she knew for a grand total of less than a week, ie she's a coward. Either way, either way, she ignores her essential truth to play in SJ as a way to avoid consequence, loss, and reality, which the show goes out of its way to highlight how those people who do that are fundamentally broken and monstrous people.

The point of SJ is just like 90% of technological things on BM; it's not inherently good or bad, but it's prone to abuse, and abusing it is often a way to highlight moral failure. The show then presenting abusing the safety net of SJ as some extremely happy ending which is at complete and utter tonal odds with the build of the episode all to that point. If they wanted her to change her mind, they needed to show it, because cutting literally from an awesome speech that justifies not living in SJ to just deciding to do it anyways gives us the conclusion that either she was lying or she's a coward, and in either case it's not a happy ending.

I mean Charlie Brooker literally said as much when talking about San Junipero, that he felt like them splitting before Yorkie entered SJ was the ending that made sense but he wrote the credits reunion because he wanted an episode of BM to have a happy ending. It absolutely, 100% feels like a forced and completely out of nowhere shoved in ending because an author fell in love with his characters, a la JK Rowling and the Harry Potter epilogue, etc. It happens, it's just in this specific case it's very destructive to the work as a whole.

You are making the mistake of thinking that the only argument an episode can make is through a character's speeches. Charlie Booker thinks the natural ending is sad because he's a smart guy who's given some thought to the Ship of Theseus and thinks the argument has sailed when it comes to that and human consciousness, and yes, he starts by presenting us with some bleak ideas about what can happen when people are given an eternity without loss. Then he introduces as character whose very existence is an argument against all of our natural instincts here. Yeah, alright, sometimes loss can be painful and beautiful and an exquisitely important part of the human experience. Are you going to say that to Yorkie's face? There is nothing poignant about what happened to her. It is just misery and lost potential at the hands of a bigoted family so tyrannical that they will not even allow for her to die.

Saying that what either character wants here is "selfish" is taking sides in a debate in which there isn't a right answer. Yorkie has an opportunity to live a life she never got to experience with someone she has genuine feelings for. The idea that living that life is selfish decadence is, and should be, offensive to her. Kelly, for whom San Junipero feels like a betrayal for the loved ones she has lost, has legitimate reasons for feeling that it is selfish decadence. Their argument stems from their lived histories and misunderstandings on the part of Yorkie for not having all of the information. Kelly's speech is so impassioned because it is giving us, the audience, new information, and it presents some good arguments, but they are not, in the end, enough to overcome the argument of Yorkie's potential. Kelly's family does not feel the insult of her continuing to live (or dying, but leaving a digital imprint of herself on a server, depending on whose side you're on). I don't think any of those things are things that she has to voice.

It's not some touchy-feely Harry Potter thing. They will have difficulties to face, but they are choosing to face them. Her change in motivation is obvious. The episode does not win awards in spite of the ending, it wins them because of it.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014



Alhazred posted:

I think that it's impossible to top White Bear in terms of meanness.

lol have you seen shut up and dance. it's definitely the meanest. also the best.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


Playtest is probaly the meanest. At least in White Bear and SUAD the show is commenting on nuanced topics like justice vs. vengeance, the nature of evil, and the concept of "acceptable targets". The ending of Playtest is just a lovely thing happening to a normal person for no reason.

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010

Catching up to god quicker

In It For The Tank posted:

Playtest is probaly the meanest. At least in White Bear and SUAD the show is commenting on nuanced topics like justice vs. vengeance, the nature of evil, and the concept of "acceptable targets". The ending of Playtest is just a lovely thing happening to a normal person for no reason.
well, he didn't deserve it for sure, but no reason? They specifically told him to turn off his phone, I assume not just because of espionage but also health risks and he ignores it for cash. tbf maybe they should've been like "also you might die, dude" so it didn't seem like it was just for espionage reasons but he prolly wouldn't have taken heed
I actually had to look the plot up again for that dumb episode cuz it has so many corny fakeout endings

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014



In It For The Tank posted:

Playtest is probaly the meanest. At least in White Bear and SUAD the show is commenting on nuanced topics like justice vs. vengeance, the nature of evil, and the concept of "acceptable targets". The ending of Playtest is just a lovely thing happening to a normal person for no reason.

nobody on earth felt the same way at the ending of playtest than they did at the end of whit ebear or shut up and dance get out of here with that bull.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


I'm not saying it was the most hardhitting ending, nor even good one. I'm saying the ending of Playtest was the most pointlessly cruel. It's like saying The Human Centipede's ending was meaner than Se7en's. Se7en has a great ending that is bleak and vicious, but Human Centipede ends with a girl whose mouth is a stapled to a dead guy's rear end in a top hat.

counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.

Playtest is the technically meanest because it's mean to the audience to show them a bad episode, which is greater than being mean to fictional characters because they don't exist.

We Know Catheters
Jan 14, 2006

Sounding for the greater good

counterfeitsaint posted:

Playtest is the technically meanest because it's mean to the audience to show them a bad episode, which is greater than being mean to fictional characters because they don't exist.

Your opinion is bad

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

He who fights shitposters should see to it that he himself does not become a shitposter. And if you gaze for long into an anidavatar, the anidavatar gazes also into you.

In It For The Tank posted:

Playtest is probaly the meanest. At least in White Bear and SUAD the show is commenting on nuanced topics like justice vs. vengeance, the nature of evil, and the concept of "acceptable targets". The ending of Playtest is just a lovely thing happening to a normal person for no reason.

The million year torture at the end of White Christmas felt pretty sadistic too, given it was done in such an off-hand manner.

counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.

I didn't think anybody liked Playtest.

We Know Catheters
Jan 14, 2006

Sounding for the greater good

counterfeitsaint posted:

I didn't think anybody liked Playtest.

🙌

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005




counterfeitsaint posted:

I didn't think anybody liked Playtest.

My wife is an arachnophobe and the thing the game did that was half-spider half-dude's-friend made her literally jump with terror.

Best episode hands down.

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

panties


counterfeitsaint posted:

I didn't think anybody liked Playtest.

I forgot it existed like 5 minutes after watching it. Same with the episode about the woke soldier.

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010

Catching up to god quicker

Mu Zeta posted:

I forgot it existed like 5 minutes after watching it. Same with the episode about the woke soldier.
wow thanks for reminding me that existed. I remembered the one with the dumb robot bees or w/e but I didn't even retain any memories of this one
I guess the ones that really "stuck" with me for better or for worse were the on-the-nose social media first episode, san junipero, the one with the pedophile, and uhhhh the robot bees, which google tells me is all the episodes except playtest and the woke soldier one anyway so 4/6 not bad. still have a lot of fun with this show. can't wait to see whatever the gently caress John Hillcoat does.

lightinwater
Jan 1, 2014


In It For The Tank posted:

Playtest is probaly the meanest. At least in White Bear and SUAD the show is commenting on nuanced topics like justice vs. vengeance, the nature of evil, and the concept of "acceptable targets". The ending of Playtest is just a lovely thing happening to a normal person for no reason.


White Christmas wins this 'contest' hands down:

We start with 2 men who've lived, in isolation, in a cabin for 5 years and said 3 sentences to each other in that time (later we learn this is only the subjective experience of one of them but still).
Next is PUA/Cyrano de Bergerac/live streaming sex crime we don't yet have a name for (Pre-revenge porn?) culminating with a murder(?)-suicide.
In the future humanity brings back slavery and, as before, slaves are treated poorly. Plus their existence is disconnected from practically everything, they have no body, no human contact ..
Next we get some relief as we're treated to some normal awfulness; infidelity, terrible communication and stalking. But this is all too low key so that ends in murder and the death of a child
Future justice is interesting. Confessions under duress are a-ok, commit a sex crime and you get solitary non-confinement and the casual torture of the criminal underclass is only worth a moments thought.

Over a million years, with no sleep, in a room, where you murdered you ex's father at christmas, after your child, your life's obsession since she blocked you from her life, turned out to be the product of infidelity. This will mean that the child dies outside in the snow. Forced to listen to I Wish It Could Be Christmas Everyday and when you lose control it just gets louder....

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014



the jaunt did it better.

lightinwater
Jan 1, 2014


https://www.tor.com/2017/09/21/blac...l-claire-north/

Only really know Doctorow and would hope that his story isn't too obviously "San Junipero DRM is holding granny hostage!"

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014



he is a bad writer.

EatinCake
Oct 21, 2008


Managed to catch a preview showing of USS Callister that had Brooker & a bunch of the cast sticking around for a QA afterwards. Brooker mentioned something along the lines of "gently caress anyone who doesn't think San Junipero was a happy ending". Liam McPoyle is in it too!

Show's still dope. It's astounding how well the show shifts from brilliant laughs to terribly uncomfortable situations.

They didn't give a release date, but hey, if they're already finished with such a special effects heavy episode I imagine we might still see it before the end of the year.

EatinCake fucked around with this message at Oct 7, 2017 around 15:17

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Oh my god how did I miss White Christmas when I was going through Season 2, goodbye and thank you thread

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010

Catching up to god quicker

looking at the pics, the idea of a Star Trek parody type thing just feels tedious af. like the Seth McFarlane thing wasn't enough? Thought this was a Twilight Zone type show, sci-fi parody just feels tired.

could've just done a riff on the themes and utopian ideals presented by Roddenberry and Star Trek without it being SOOO visually on the nose & unsubtle. what is this a porn parody? I guess it's just lost on me since I never watched any Star Trek except if you count the two JJ Abrams movies.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Oh, the world's not so crazy, Kolenkhov. It's the people in it. Life's pretty simple if you just relax.



If I had to guess, the whole "blatently inspired by Star Trek" thing is going to be some kind of simulation played by a bunch of incorrigibly bad people who miss the "liberal utopia" concepts and somehow manage to be more regressive than the 60s version, and that the utilized images and tropes will be unsettling reference points rather than parody (with an occasional parody-level joke, because, hell, who can resist?).

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010

Catching up to god quicker

Ah yah something like that would be cool, I was leery of it just actually being a real space sci fi thing with cornball on the nose Star Trek aesthetics. Who directed this episode again?


I do support Meth Damon as the next Star Trek captain

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Oh, the world's not so crazy, Kolenkhov. It's the people in it. Life's pretty simple if you just relax.



I mean, I think Futurama, Galaxy Quest, and hell, Star Trek itself, have effectively lampooned and parodied the genre to the point where a direct parody of it would be pretty tired, but playing with the some of the high concepts and recognizable branding of the franchise that has permeated our culture and using it to say something horrible about human nature is something that has potential.

Toby Haynes is directing it, whose experience seems to focus around "stuff with the BBC that requires kind of an enormous budget for the BBC."

EatinCake
Oct 21, 2008


Punkin Spunkin posted:

looking at the pics, the idea of a Star Trek parody type thing just feels tedious af. like the Seth McFarlane thing wasn't enough? Thought this was a Twilight Zone type show, sci-fi parody just feels tired.

could've just done a riff on the themes and utopian ideals presented by Roddenberry and Star Trek without it being SOOO visually on the nose & unsubtle. what is this a porn parody? I guess it's just lost on me since I never watched any Star Trek except if you count the two JJ Abrams movies.
Having seen it, don't worry. There's a lot more to it.

ElCondemn
Aug 7, 2005
I claim I was poor, but it turns I had a single mother who could actually work a job so I don't know what it really means to be poor.


Bicyclops posted:

If I had to guess, the whole "blatently inspired by Star Trek" thing is going to be some kind of simulation played by a bunch of incorrigibly bad people who miss the "liberal utopia" concepts and somehow manage to be more regressive than the 60s version, and that the utilized images and tropes will be unsettling reference points rather than parody (with an occasional parody-level joke, because, hell, who can resist?).

The Orville is shaping up to be exactly that unfortunately...

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

PONYTAR
PONYTAR
PONYTAR




The Star Trek one will probably turn out to be a bunch of nerds cosplaying that turns into 'what if fandom but too much'

TraderStav
May 19, 2006
At least that dreadful man has gone. For now.


lightinwater posted:

White Christmas wins this 'contest' hands down:

We start with 2 men who've lived, in isolation, in a cabin for 5 years and said 3 sentences to each other in that time (later we learn this is only the subjective experience of one of them but still).
Next is PUA/Cyrano de Bergerac/live streaming sex crime we don't yet have a name for (Pre-revenge porn?) culminating with a murder(?)-suicide.
In the future humanity brings back slavery and, as before, slaves are treated poorly. Plus their existence is disconnected from practically everything, they have no body, no human contact ..
Next we get some relief as we're treated to some normal awfulness; infidelity, terrible communication and stalking. But this is all too low key so that ends in murder and the death of a child
Future justice is interesting. Confessions under duress are a-ok, commit a sex crime and you get solitary non-confinement and the casual torture of the criminal underclass is only worth a moments thought.

Over a million years, with no sleep, in a room, where you murdered you ex's father at christmas, after your child, your life's obsession since she blocked you from her life, turned out to be the product of infidelity. This will mean that the child dies outside in the snow. Forced to listen to I Wish It Could Be Christmas Everyday and when you lose control it just gets louder....

Yup, this is why White Christmas is the one that still haunts me. So so so many ways things are hosed up in it. Yes, White Bear and Shut up and Dance are both horrific, but White Christmas is so universally terrifying to me. Trapped for a literal eternity like that. ugh.

unlawfulsoup
May 12, 2001

Welcome home boys!

ElCondemn posted:

The Orville is shaping up to be exactly that unfortunately...

What

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

lifts cats over head
Jan 17, 2003

Antagonist: A bad man who drops things from the windows.

Bicyclops posted:

If I had to guess, the whole "blatently inspired by Star Trek" thing is going to be some kind of simulation played by a bunch of incorrigibly bad people who miss the "liberal utopia" concepts and somehow manage to be more regressive than the 60s version, and that the utilized images and tropes will be unsettling reference points rather than parody (with an occasional parody-level joke, because, hell, who can resist?).

My first reaction was that they adapted the book Red Shirts into an episode, only to later find out that it's being (potentially) developed into it's own series on FX.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«44 »