Black Mirror - what if phones, but too much - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Black Mirror - what if phones, but too much

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Bicyclops posted:

My favorite thing about the Entire History of You is all the reviewers (that didn't like it) who were like "But in the end, jealous people will always be like this, regardless of the technology. The tech is background to a story that has existed forever," and it's like "Uh... yeah... welcome to Black Mirror?"

It's not a new argument. There's a right side, though; it really shouldn't be a gray area. The guy is a jealous rear end in a top hat and his inability to allow his wife to have any relationships with other people, past or present, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It drives her away from him and fulfills his worst fears. Trying to construct a world in which she only exists within the context of his life only forces her to cut him out of hers. You don't need technology that records every second for it, sure. We've probably all seen a guy who does it on Facebook, or pores through his wife's emails, or parks outside of her workplace when she says she has to stay late.

I'd guess the argument stems from "Well, in the end, he was right that she was cheating, wasn't he?" but that kind of behavior was almost definitely what made their relationship collapse in the first place.

Again, you say in two paragraphs what I'd say in five.

When you constantly act jealous to your partner and demand their body autonomy belong to you, not only do you incentivize them to seek out ways to feel like it belongs to them, but you've also created a "gently caress it. He already shits on me for cheating. Might as well cheat" situation.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2017 20:25

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 14:15

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I took twenty-three years on the internet, but I have argument fatigue.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2017 06:04

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Bullfrog posted:

Nobody has mentioned Black Museum's obvious racial / lynching themes yet.

Weakest was definitely Crocodile.

Nobody's mentioned them because they weren't a hidden puzzle. It was right there in the text.

Edit: That was overly-snarky, and I apologize.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2017 06:20

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

21 Muns posted:

It occurs to me to wonder if perhaps the villain of Black Museum turned the woman into a monkey as, like, a racist thing, like he's trying to "ironically punish her" for having sex with a black man. The racist interpretation occurred to me shortly after I finished watching the episode and I figured it was awkward and unintentional, but it just occurred to me now that since the villain is almost certainly a massive racist anyway, the character might have done it on purpose.

I'd guess it was probably going to be a teddy bear, but they already had a teddy bear plot in a different episode, so they changed it.

I really like your reading, though.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2017 03:55

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Supercar Gautier posted:

Boy there's been an upswing in posters who fixate on the metaphysics of the tech in the show while being coldly unmoved by the themes, characterization, and actual Point, huh.

If this is just a roundabout way to poo poo on people on the autism spectrum, save it.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2018 05:01

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Supercar Gautier posted:

Not in the slightest?

Retracted with apologies.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2018 02:42

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Seen most divergrnces after several go-rounds, but at the computer, even after looping back, I only ever got Netflix, the symbol, and P.A.C.S. does anybody know what leads to PAX or what happens after?

# ¿ Dec 28, 2018 22:48

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

The Cheshire Cat posted:

PAX isn't at the computer, it's at the safe, and it's just a failure that loops back to the "give me a sign" choice, the same way JFC does. I'm not sure what specifically leads to it - I had it show up after taking "PAC" the first time and looping back around.

Thank you. Bitchin' avatar.

Grem posted:

There's no real "Oh gently caress...that's the message!" moment, but it's a neat gimmick.

A lof of people have been saying this, and I'm baffled by it. The lesson is, very unsubtly, don't stop taking your meds, even if you know for sure you'll be a better artist because of it. Your mental health is more important than your masterpiece that's spiraling you out of loving control.

And after seeing the opposite in most other pieces of media, I'm elated. gently caress that other narrative.

The only thing I found disappointing about the movie/game is that I lucked into the most narratively interesting (from my perspective) version of the piece on my first go.

I immediately failed by taking the job and then the other dev recognized me and had read Bandersnatch on my second go-round. Creepy. Cool. I no longer know what the rules are. I dumped the tea on my computer, but the piece wouldn't let me end that way. There were no credits. So I'm in control, but only nominally. So the piece started infinate, then actually grew by telling me I'd made the wrong choice by showing me that my second go-around, things would react to the original choices I'd made, but now I was learning there were still limits. I opted to kill myself first, knowing I'd loop back, whereas if I let him kill himself, we may continue on from there. The piece out-thought me again. I got to experience both, and Stefan knew, and was now stuck in therapy. My dev buddy never turned up again so I could never ask him if he remembered. I veered into the conspiracy plot and the actors and time travel and wound up retrieving my rabbit, dying on a train with my mom, and dying in real life in my therapist's office. It was very narratively tight, balancing the cinematic with the gamification of the narrative in an incredibly satisfying way.

Seeing the other endings, including the other most interesting one, where my dev buddy's kid continued my work and we went full meta was fun, but the experience I had my first time through was loving sublime.

And I didn't get to the real moral of the story until I made every "correct" choice, at which point I was like, "yeah. It must be really dull not being crazy."

Also, LOL at everybody saying "boy, that ending was disappointing." There were like fifteen of 'em. Tell us which one you're talking about to begin with, but even besides that, without knowing how you ended up there, we have no idea how to infer why it was disappointing. You went on a completely different journey than we did.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2018 04:30

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Fans posted:

As for "It turns out it was all in his head! You should take your meds folks!" it really didn't do a very good job of that. Once you stop taking the pills it never even mentions them again and it's not like things weren't weird before you did.[/spoiler]

Because being on meds isn't a silver bullet and it turns out if you heinously overwork yourself on a piece of art and can't get out of your own head, you'll still start to lose your grip on reality.

I don''t know, man. Maybe it's because I'm a crazy person who creates things, and Charlie Brooker clearly has at least dipped his toe in madness, but it hit incredibly close to home to me.

It's way more interesting to see how deep the rabbit hole goes than to do the work and be more dull.

When you finally find meds that work, people a lot of the time think you've gotten worse, because you're not as fun. And they'll tell you so. It's super hosed up and makes you doubt everything.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2018 04:51

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Fans posted:

But if that's your take Then you missed that starting to take your meds again is the only way to end this with everyone alive that isn't the Netflix Meta endings or the very first ending where your game bombs. Taking your meds absolutely is a silver bullet in this

Not exactly.

He'd already begun to lose his grip on reality. He had his prescription re-upped and ignored all the calls to madness and made choices in line with what you do when you know you're falling in. He started clawing his way out. And yes, I absolutely got that ending, and it's my basis for how boring it was to not follow the bugnuts plot just because it was more entertaining.

QuoProQuid posted:

Spoilers

You, and everybody who quoted you should spoiler this.

FZeroRacer posted:

Stuff

This one gets it. Also a good additional reading.

Now I'm not saying that my message is the only message, either. It just runs counter to the "it's weird to see Black Mirror with no messages" posts, because I could actually see quite a few. One of them could even be absolutely go insane and kill your family if you want to go down in history as a great artist," but I would avoid a person who took that reading from it like I avoid people who misunderstand Fight Club.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2018 05:29

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

TraderStav posted:

Greatly appreciated that I was able to go down (most of) the other branches as a part of the game until I exhausted all of the endings. That cured my anxiety with CYOA games of missing out on my other decisions.

All in all, good fun. But not going to bed with any sense of dread so doesn't feel like Black Mirror.

You clearly didn't order a man with no free will to hack up the body of his father and have him ask you please not to, because GAH.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2018 06:00

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Snuffman posted:

what happens if you can remember the number?

I didn't have to remember it, as it was reading it out to me as I was asked for it, so your mileage may vary, but almost nothing different. Stefan calls the therapist, the receptionist answers, he says he knows what's going on, tells her to threaten the therapist, tells her to get hosed, and the story proceeds as you saw it from there.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2018 07:56

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Cream-of-Plenty posted:

Did anybody post this yet?

https://twitter.com/StuAA/status/1078655818357194752

In case anybody can't follow the QR code, it's just https://www.tuckersoft.net/ealing20541/history/

# ¿ Dec 29, 2018 09:43

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Darko posted:

My largest issue is that every ending should have given you credits. Instead, it keeps shunting everyone back and telling them they made to wrong choice by not providing credits. It would be more fun to compare endings as opposed to everyone getting to the predetermined ending (my PS4 controller shut off and I didn't bother making choices outside of my initial "yes" choice, so saw the default path).

No way. The only thing that sets this apart from bog standard CYOAs is your choices in one loop are reflected in the next, and both your character and another can see the previous "wrong" choices you made. You aren't going back. You're still moving forward.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2018 22:21

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

inferis posted:

I was really impressed by how accurate the acid scene was.

I sincerely doubt that Brooker has never [spoiler]dropped acid.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2018 05:55

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

KoRMaK posted:

So, I got to the 5/5 ending pretty easily on my first playthrough, while sick. So I just picked the worst options trying to troll the rules system. And it was disappointing. After looking at the decision flowcharts, I'm bummed that they seem mostly linear with side steps left or right. There are no perpendicular or inverse decision paths. poo poo that could really intertwine. I know it's not done as often as it should be in RPGs, but for a game system so reduced as this, with no NPCs or factions and poo poo, it could be managable with a good writing staff just for narratives.

I hereby challenge you to script and film a narrative with two meaningful branches on your phone that branch off into two more from there, each, with all making sense in context with the others and without being disappointing on any path. It doesn't have to look good. I just want you to see how impossible what you're asking for is on a strictly practical level on video and not in a video game.

poo poo, just write the loving thing.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2018 09:45

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

We Know Catheters posted:

I don't really see the point of subscribing to Netflix again just for some gimmick episode

A man walks into a cocktail party for his book club. People are enjoying themselves. The room chatters with spirited debates. Everybody's excited to discuss what they loved or didn't love. To share their insights and hear the insights of others.

"I really loved the bit where-"

"THE BOOK DIDN'T LOOK WORTH MY TIME SO I DIDN'T BUY IT," the man shouts.

The room goes silent. All heads turn to him. A second passes. A long second, but a second nonetheless.

The noise returns to the room as people shake their heads and return to their discussion.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2018 20:46

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

KoRMaK posted:

Lol whats with you. Are you Charlie Brooker?

I don't understand the utility in dropping in to a discussion about a thing to announce that you are above that thing, other than to be a loving douche.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2018 23:47

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

withak posted:

I don't know about you guys but I was checking the thread twice per hour in anticipation of finding out what We Know Catheters thought of the episode.

It's worse than that. They dropped by to announce they didn't watch it.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2018 00:14

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

KoRMaK posted:

I assume they have a writers room, with writers in it.

The point is, you're saying "it'd be so easy to make this ten times bigger than it already is" with no firsthand knowledge of either video game development or filmmaking.

It's the "why don't the just hit the port game button" post.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2018 01:16

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

KoRMaK posted:

What makes you think I don't know what it takes to make a video game or a narrative?

I didn't say 10 times bigger, I said 4 more branches. You're being really annoying and your replies have all been fstalsitic "can't be done" bullshit instead of earnestly exploring the idea.

Do you understand that four more branches, each with their own loops and conclusions and dead ends isn't just four more endings? There are really only two branches here, but each branches off into several more each. Adding four more than quadruples the amount of endings we got. It isn't just four more endings, it's four more branches, for a total of six, multiplying what we got before you take into account how each path affects the other. More on this in a minute.

I'm not being fatalistic. You're the directors I've worked with who hand me a shot list seven pages long for a shooting day of fourteen hours. I had to explain to those people that they have to pick what's essential, which is going to be less than one-seventh of their shot list. I then had to explain to these directors, often, that what they viewed as essential, wasn't, because if we only shot those things, we couldn't cut the thing together into a coherent narrative.

And this is on a production with two lights, two actors, a director, and myself, on one location, with no sound to speak of because we're doing it all in post. It doesn't get easier to shoot a thing than that unless you're looking into a camera and jump-cutting while talking.

Even if it were easy to do in a video game, as you claim, which it isn't, which is how I know you're not meaningfully involved in game development, the costs of doing so, either in a game or a film, are astronomical unless your art assets are minimal and your game is mostly text, which this is decidedly not. And even then, it's still a ton of effort.

But aside from that, this thread and every online discussion has solidified in my mind that Bandersnatch is as much a personality test as anything else.

A lot of people are talking about how they "got" all the endings. This isn't a CYOA anime kidfucker like they used to review on the frontpage here where you're the handsome high school boy who fucks schoolgirls, but if you gently caress one, you piss off the others, so you toil until you find the ending where you gently caress every schoolgirl, and then you've beaten the game and gotten the "best" ending.

It's a film with branching narratives, and in this case, the "ending" you got doesn't just take into account the scene you saw which ended the narrative. It takes into account everything your character witnessed before that, because unlike those games, your character, and one other character, (without going into the fact that the viewer is a character of sorts) is aware of the previous paths you've taken. Just like you, the viewer, are. They don't not matter because you moved backwards.

You haven't looped back and started over. The journey actually still matters. Because it's one narrative. You didn't load your save back to an earlier point. The character experienced your failed choice, and other characters will comment on it, and the world will change as a result of it.

You didn't start Groundhog Day over every time Bill Murray died. His experiences mattered. Otherwise we'd have just seen the last day and we'd all have been very confused.

To treat the narrative as if it's a save point you've reverted to is to miss the point of the madness itself, and to ignore the fact that all of those failed choices still matter.

I watched people in Games poo poo on Devs for drat near two decades for "why didn't they just-" and I'll give you the answer here for film that they give for games, and it isn't that you're cleverer than the hundreds and hundreds of people who made the thing you're talking about. It's that if it were easy, they would have.

This was an astronomical accomplishment from just a logistics/production/post production standpoint, and the fact that it was also quite good makes it stand above every other gimmicky audience votes get tallied CYOA I've seen attempted.

I'm sorry if my tone is harsh. I just hate criticism that has no understanding of the realities of making art.

I'm not angry at you. I'm angry that the world so often treats Cinema Sins as a valid substitute for media literacy.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2018 03:40

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

KoRMaK posted:

You're projecting a lot there. But I see where you are coming from.

Transference, I believe Freud called it, and yeah, sorry. I'll cop to it.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2018 05:10

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Your reading is completely different than mine, but I love it.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2019 04:00

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Nevvy Z posted:

When I read CYOA books as a kid I would keep track of where I read and go back. This is just them doing that for us so we don't have to restart the whole thing every time.

On a practical level, sure, but not on a narrative one since your character and one other remembers you picking the other paths.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2019 21:31

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Ulio posted:

Is Bandersnatch worth watching?

I had an absolutely wonderful time with it, in that Black Mirror way, and it seems like people's experiences varied so wildly depending on their choices that it really can't be quantified to another person whether they'd enjoy it or not.

But the worst way to experience Bandersnatch is to try to meta game it. Just make the choices you'd make and don't try to game the system on your first watch. You have subsequent playthroughs to get cheeky.

# ¿ May 23, 2019 01:02

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Iron Crowned posted:

Bandersnatch was interesting. Much like the game he's programming it only has the illusion of freewill, as there is only one ending

There are more than a couple major endings sprinkled in with all the minor ones that loop you back.

My favorite thing is that when it looped me back, the narrative knew it had looped me back and took that into account. It wasn't just "whoops. Time to load the old save."

# ¿ Jun 5, 2019 04:13

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Twerkdad posted:

Rachel, Jack and Ashley Too The thing that bothered me the most was the name drop of a bunch of NIN adjacent bands like Pixies and Sonic Youth but somehow Nine Inch Nails didn't exist

I found that whole angle really distracting. I spent most of the episode wondering when the shoe was gonna' drop about Ashley or her aunt just stealing and repurposing pop songs from 40 years ago, and when it kept on not happening, but they kept playing the song, I was like, "so did they just not realize they ripped off NIN?" And then the reveal was just that Nine Inch Nails didn't exist. It didn't add to the narrative. It distracted me from enjoying it as much as I otherwise would have.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2019 19:45

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Supercar Gautier posted:

Denouement of Striking Vipers shoulda been Karl finally transitioning IRL. Come on bud, I bet the medical tech for it is even better in the future.

loving THIS.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2019 20:03

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

BigBallChunkyTime posted:

I just watched Black Museum from last season and holy cow is it hosed up.

That whole episode I wanted the curator to be Adam Conover for some reason.

Edit: Sorry. Doublepost.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2019 20:03

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

HorseRenoir posted:

...Yes? Alcohol is addictive too but it doesn't excuse personal responsibility for driving drunk.

He didn't call the guy to blame him for the crash. He goes through painstaking effort to tell him that it was his own fault. He just needed him to know that it happened.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2019 00:05

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Away all Goats posted:

Rachel Jack and Ashley Too I had a good laugh at the news segment of comatose Ashley's brain being scanned for more songwriting ideas. The could have easily been a segment by The Onion

I thought when they introduced that plot device, that they were clearly bullshitting about being able to scan her brain for music and that it was just a way to make anybody's stupid overproduced crap into Ashley's, but then nope, they went the less interesting route of stupid magic technology.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2019 01:57

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

LadyPictureShow posted:

It's probably my favorite. Even more now since this thread brought up the episode writer's background with reality TV.

Bonus points for marrying how horribly fat-shamey the UK is with the horrors of late-stage capitalism.

It's a perfect episode. Between that and Get Out, Daniel Kaluuya deserves a long and amazing career.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2019 22:08

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Saucy_Rodent posted:

MeowMeowbeenz>the episode of Recess where the Ashleys assign everyone a rating>Nosedive

There was an episode of The Orville with that plot too. It's this decade's version of Miller Boyette character puts dish soap in the washing machine and soaps the whole house.

Wafflecopper posted:

Bandersnatch was bad because where the story ends is completely random and arbitrary.

I don't think that's true. It takes everything you've done into account, up to and including rewinds. It isn't arbitrary.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2019 02:16

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Darko posted:

Open relationships don't work out all the time because they aren't *even*. One partner wants to compromise way more than the other in many/most instances, and jealousy/fear builds in the other partner over time.

Open relationships have a lovely reputation because when they end, people blame the openness of the relationship. You could just as easily flip the script and blame every monogamous relationship ending on monogamy and you'd still be just as wrong.

Broken relationships end because they're broken, and that's a good and positive thing. Nobody breaks up because their relationship is too amazing.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2019 21:25

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

The Cheshire Cat posted:

Yeah it strikes me that when someone brings up "I want to see other people" in a monogamous relationship, just letting them do it isn't going to fix the relationship because what they're REALLY saying "I want to see less of you".

I've seen tons of people successfully open up a previously monogamous relationship. What you're describing isn't polyamory. It's legalized cheating. That's not the same thing.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2019 05:13

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

No Wave posted:

The end was just such a groan for me. The style of the episode was great, and yeah Nicola was totally hilarious, but jeez that ending was way too cute.

The ending is absolutely what ruins Hang the DJ for most people, I bet.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2019 23:49

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Saucy_Rodent posted:

Same with Playtest. Good stories with dumb �it was all a dream� twists.

I thought Playtest was meh, but "lol shoulda turned your phone off" reminiscent of the fearmongering they used to do on airplanes about turning everything off combined with "it was all a dream" tipped it from "meh" to "my least favorite episode."

# ¿ Jun 20, 2019 00:57

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Weird! I just googled "is there going to be more Black Mirror" after not having thought about the show in probably over a year literally yesterday.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2023 01:09

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Black Mirror isn't really a show that you can binge unless you're doing extremely well, and who among us really is right now.

So I've only been through all of them at once I think twice, and the rest I just pick a few and watch them.

I'm surprised to hear some folks don't like Bandersnatch. I really dug it quite a bit. It was the only part of Netflix's CYOA experiment that wasn't embarrassing.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2023 22:57

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 14:15

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Zwabu posted:

I feel like The Entire History of You would be higher up if it weren't such an unpleasant and difficult watch

I really annoyed a friend with this one. He turned me onto the show and was showing me the first season and I kept having to stop The Entire History of You to push down a rising panic attack.

It was such a hard watch.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2023 21:37

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