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AKA Pseudonym posted:Did the coup plotters stand a chance or was that enterprise doomed from the start? Well, part of the problem with the USSR and the reason a reformer like Gorbachev came to power was that the conservative hardliners were basically still Stalin's old cronies, and by 1990 they were mostly dead leaving no real candidates to lead the USSR. Gorbachev was like 40 years younger than the next choice. So even if they had succeeded, the problems of leadership and popular unrest would have still been there. They also acted way too late, Gorbachev was accumulating power from the early 80s, and by 1991 he had already done most of the work of dismantling the USSR. icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 06:24
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davey4283 posted:A good friend of mine is a Soviet born Estonian and she hates Russians with unmatched fervor. Which got me thinking, how is Soviet Union remembered in different republics? It's pretty clear what the memory is in baltic states, but how about the different -stans and so on?
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Dec 28, 2014 16:04
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^Well, from my experience as a Peace Corps volunteer and private English teacher in Ukraine, it depends on whom you ask. Prior to the Euro-maidan protests that started in Nov. 2013, a lot of elderly people in Ukraine, pensioners in particular, missed the stability of the USSR. Granted, they still had restrictions in their lives, but there was a lot of stability (for example, bread was always 3 kopecks a loaf, a ride on the Kyiv metro was always 5 kopecks, and so on) and a stronger sense of civic pride. Many older Ukrainians will reminisce fondly about the days of parades, Plumbir ice cream, cheap bread, stable salaries, guaranteed jobs, apartments reserved for teachers, and so on. That said, they overlook the lack of freedom of speech, the paltry selection of goods in shops, and even if bread was 3 kopecks a loaf, they would still need to get in line and wait for it. Also, plenty of Ukrainians, especially in the western half of the country, were victims of Stalinist purges, resettlements, and having Russian language and culture foisted upon them, and they're still upset about that. And of course, there is the attempted genocide by starvation of Ukrainians (the holodimor) that Ukrainians are still recovering from. If you talk to Ukrainians whose families are from the central or eastern parts of the country, they'll have some horrific stories about people starving to death on the streets. So yeah, the USSR is not remembered fondly by most of the Ukrainians that I know.
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Dec 28, 2014 21:17
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One day in March, many years ago, I was in a high school Social Studies class and the teacher was discussing the final years of Stalin's reign, including the lingering effects of his brutality. The vice principal of the school, who happened to be Ukrainian, walked by the classroom while my teacher was lecturing. My Social Studies teacher called for him to come in the room and, without prompting, asked, "what's today?" My vice principal replied, "it's the happiest day of the year, March 5th." "Why is it the happiest day of the year?" asked my teacher, and the VP replied, "because Stalin died today in 1953!" and then walked away. It was a pretty fantastic example of how these things can linger on in the consciousness of a people.
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Dec 28, 2014 22:07
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Children and songs from the Soviet Union. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgDfXQx87MM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FU3C7vh1jI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMxDYXG1nq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMdjg9AUGck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlpfoOYkfrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fY1uYekWMs
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Dec 29, 2014 08:07
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AKA Pseudonym posted:Did the coup plotters stand a chance or was that enterprise doomed from the start? It was pretty much doomed from the start. Military Coups only work if the soldiers have loyalty to the people giving them orders, rather than their political leaders. The Soviet Union had just come out of a disastrous campaign in Afghanistan, so the average Soviet soldier wasn't all that crazy about the Politburo leaders that sent them into the meatgrinder to prop up some backwoods puppet state. (And yes, as an American, I fully understand the historical irony of that.) The coup leaders just tried to stir up patriotic fervor in their countryman, but it didn't work on cynical drafted soldiers. They weren't about to open fire on their brothers and neighbors. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Dec 29, 2014 |
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Dec 29, 2014 08:30
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davey4283 posted:A good friend of mine is a Soviet born Estonian and she hates Russians with unmatched fervor. I find this incredibly hard to believe. Especially for a woman. I'm also Estonian. e: I can not really say how USSR is remembered in Estonia, I was only three when it fell. There's some folks who miss it, mostly the former more-equal-than-the-rest who long for their privileges. Good thing it's gone though. Perhaps some comparisons between then and now are in order. I've heard from my aunts at the time things such as teen pregnancy meant expulsion from school and rejection. These days it's of course no big deal. The reds were naturally enforcing strong morals. No longer one has to be stuck with one education for life. A conscript in Estonian army who ran off when in forest, with his service rifle no less, was given a suspended sentence because it was after all his first time and he probably did not mean it. I'm not sure what it would have meant in the soviet army. Probably something very heavy. Of course the guy ended up running again for the second time. jonnypeh fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Dec 29, 2014 |
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Dec 29, 2014 17:51
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jonnypeh posted:I find this incredibly hard to believe. Especially for a woman. My best friends fiancee is from Tallinn and hates Russians. She's worried that they'll be the next Ukraine. She thinks Putin is a poo poo head dictator. She wishes that all the Russians that settled in your country were deported. Russians, vodka socks and the Soviet times. That's what she talks about when she's drunk. I don't know why that's so hard to believe.
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Dec 29, 2014 18:46
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davey4283 posted:I don't know why that's so hard to believe.
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Dec 29, 2014 22:12
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pigdog posted:Either there's some exaggeration going on or she's an outlier. Or she's just talking poo poo like lots of people commonly do? I also don't understand why it's "incredibly hard to believe" that some random Estonian expresses extreme opinions about Russians when drunk. I have met others from Baltic states with similar attitudes, I don't think it's that rare. Some people get drunk and start up with the nationalism, and with Russian forces in Ukraine right now I would think people would get even more amped up about it. It's not like Russian aggression came to a halt in 1990, they have now invaded two ex-SSR's within that time, one of which is still an ongoing conflict. It's pretty understandable that people in other ex-SSR's might get worried and express that worry in terms of threats and extremism when drunk. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Dec 29, 2014 |
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Dec 29, 2014 22:28
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There's a little bit of difference between, say, disliking gays and "fantasizing about the genocide of gays". In fact it's a little bit insulting that you wouldn't consider the latter kind of views out of the ordinary.
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Dec 29, 2014 22:59
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Earwicker posted:Or she's just talking poo poo like lots of people commonly do? I also don't understand why it's "incredibly hard to believe" that some random Estonian expresses extreme opinions about Russians when drunk. I have met others from Baltic states with similar attitudes, I don't think it's that rare. Some people get drunk and start up with the nationalism, and with Russian forces in Ukraine right now I would think people would get even more amped up about it. I've known plenty of drunk people among my family, friends and colleagues, and none do that. None are afraid of being invaded either. And I'm saying this as a very national defense minded person seeing as I'm in the home guard. Maybe I just move in different social circles than you folks do. That must be it. Regardless, it's important to avoid any sort of hot-blooded right-wing nuttery. Things are quite smooth now, integration and assimilation in progress. No need to ruin it. e: what pigdog said.
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Dec 29, 2014 23:01
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pigdog posted:There's a little bit of difference between, say, disliking gays and "fantasizing about the genocide of gays". In fact it's a little bit insulting that you wouldn't consider the latter kind of views out of the ordinary. The latter kind of views are not what I would describe as "common", but I also wouldn't describe them as so out of the ordinary as to say it was incredibly hard to believe that someone said them, especially a drunk person. I've heard plenty of Americans talking about "turning the Middle East into glass" in the years following 9/11, and it strikes me as exactly the same sort of poo poo.
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Dec 29, 2014 23:11
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I was in the USSR for a few weeks in the early '90s. One day they took our group to a club. I was in high school at the time and didn't like alcohol so I went up to the bar and tried to order a Pepsi. Me: I'd like a Pepsi please. Bartender: One vodka and Pepsi coming up. Me: No. I just want a Pepsi. No vodka. Bartender: That's what I said. One vodka Pepsi. Me: Let's try this. Give me a vodka Pepsi. Just leave out the vodka. Bartender: I don't understand. Me: OK How about this. I'll have 2 vodka Pepsis. Put all the Pepsi in one glass and all the vodka in the other glass and keep the glass of vodka. I'll pay for both of them. Bartender: Ohhhh. I see. In that case there's no charge. Pepsi had some sort of exclusive deal with the USSR. You couldn't get Coke but Pepsi was available. We would call it nenc because the Cyrillic for Pepsi looks kind of like nenc. Those vodka Pepsis were served in what looked like a highball glass and about half of it was vodka. I remember thinking it was strange that I got my Pepsi for free since it was actually more expensive than vodka, by a lot.
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Dec 31, 2014 20:06
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AKA Pseudonym posted:Did the coup plotters stand a chance or was that enterprise doomed from the start? They lacked the proper criminal aptitude to be sufficient/successfull coupists. One can, btw. convincingly argue that the coup succeeded, which was Yeltsin winning and seizing power by force.
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Dec 31, 2014 20:20
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davey4283 posted:A good friend of mine is a Soviet born Estonian and she hates Russians with unmatched fervor. Does she live in Estonia, or is she an ex-pat? Ex-pats anywhere sometimes have a tendency to be kind of super nationalist in my experience compared to people back home.
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Dec 31, 2014 20:56
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AKA Pseudonym posted:Did the coup plotters stand a chance or was that enterprise doomed from the start? What they were even trying to achieve? They were "hardliners" yes, but why would they thought that people would gladly return to Brezhnevyism after years of glasnost?
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Jan 1, 2015 00:01
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Part of them were propably looking to go down the Chinese road to reform instead. History is not very kind on people who loose power struggles.
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Jan 1, 2015 19:31
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Not necessarily Soviet, but more Russian: I know many Russians are weird about mold, but is there some common belief in dangerous magnetic or solar energies? I seem to recall hearing about this'll something similar at one point but Googling around proves fruitless.
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Jan 5, 2015 09:40
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MothraAttack posted:Not necessarily Soviet, but more Russian: I know many Russians are weird about mold, but is there some common belief in dangerous magnetic or solar energies? I seem to recall hearing about this'll something similar at one point but Googling around proves fruitless. Same thing with light therapy. I even know Bulgarians and Crimeans who did it back in the day.
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Jan 5, 2015 10:47
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MothraAttack posted:Not necessarily Soviet, but more Russian: I know many Russians are weird about mold, but is there some common belief in dangerous magnetic or solar energies? I seem to recall hearing about this'll something similar at one point but Googling around proves fruitless. Well, some Koreans are worried about Fan Death, where leaving an electric fan running all night without opening a window will cause suffocation.
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Jan 5, 2015 12:31
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MothraAttack posted:Not necessarily Soviet, but more Russian: I know many Russians are weird about mold, but is there some common belief in dangerous magnetic or solar energies? I seem to recall hearing about this'll something similar at one point but Googling around proves fruitless. New age quackery and cults were extremely popular during the 90s in Russia. Probably because it was a really hard time for people and because there was not a lot of experience with that stuff yet. I don't know about magnets, but there was this one guy who owned a pyramid hat. He regularly met with other people like him in some field and they tried to concentrate cosmic energy with these hats.  The best part is, that he worked as an engineer before the collapse.Also, what about mold? Americans don't believe in mold anymore?
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Jan 8, 2015 20:58
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Can OP shed any light on the Soviet criminal justice system for me? I can't find much material at all. Was there any system in place for jury trials, with attorneys etc?
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Jan 11, 2015 09:17
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VoteTedJameson posted:Can OP shed any light on the Soviet criminal justice system for me? I can't find much material at all. Was there any system in place for jury trials, with attorneys etc? Nominally yes, they were guaranteed by the Soviet Constitution, but largely what happened was that if a case made it to trial, it was a purely for appearances. The militia wouldn't prosecute a case unless they were 100% certain they had a conviction, and it didn't usually matter who the defendant was - if they were arrested, they were guilty. The system was designed to protect the state from an individual, rather than to protect an individual from the state. Criminal cases consisted of a pre-trial exam (think US depositions) before the indictment and the actual trial. In the prelim, the investigator interrogated the accused and the witnesses and examined evidence. The accused was informed of his/her rights before the examination. The trial court consisted of a professional judge with a 5-year term and two assessors (lay judges) from the population with a 2.5-year term. The proceedings were very informal - the judges first questioned accused and witnesses, then the procurator and defense counsel to corroborate the evidence in the indictment. The accused and the victim could question each other or the witnesses. The accused was presumed innocent, though not in the common law sense. The court decided by majority vote. The accused or the procurator could appeal decisions to a higher court consisting of three professional judges that reviewed the facts and the law. If the procurator appealed, the higher court could set aside the judgment and remand the case. Although the decision of the appeals court was "final", higher courts could review them as "supervision". Here, the accused or his/her counsel could submit briefs, but they could not appear in person. During the trial, the judges had the additional responsibility of educating the people like revealing and removing the causes and conditions that led to the crime. Judges kept legal technicalities to a minimum; the court's stated purpose was to find the truth, rather than to protect legal rights. Although most hearings were open to the public, hearings could also be held privately, if the Soviet Government deemed it necessary. That was how it was *supposed* to work, but during much of the USSR's life, what happened was that the Cheka/NKVD/KGB/MVD would receive a tip from an informant or collaborator, spend time investigating the subject, arrest them (very commonly for "wrecking" or "anti-state activities" or the USSR's favorite, "agitation"), and if Stalin was alive, they'd be given a bullet in the neck or, during Khrushchev/Brezhnev/Andropov/Chernenko they'd be given a show-trial. Gorbachev did away with a lot of this, but basically you couldn't ever expect to get anything close to a fair trial in the USSR at any time.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:46
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feedmegin posted:Does she live in Estonia, or is she an ex-pat? Ex-pats anywhere sometimes have a tendency to be kind of super nationalist in my experience compared to people back home. Truth. Having been an ex-pat, it's a whole crazy serious of feedback loops that end in a parody of super nationalism. I'd totally buy an ex-pat Estonian being all super-Estonian.
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Jan 11, 2015 10:14
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