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Rocksicles posted:Can we get a This. Hundred Eyes is loving awesome. I don't care if the "practically invincible Kung Fu monk" has been done to death, he made the show so much more worthwhile. That said, I don't know why, but I entered the show with the mindset that it was some sort of comic book-y historical fiction and had pretty low expectations. Then the show wildly exceeded those expectations. I really like it. Although as has been mentioned a bunch, I wish it were just about Kublai. I couldn't give any less of a poo poo about Marco about halfway through the season.
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Dec 21, 2014 04:36
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for Johnny Wu as Hundred Eyes. Everything he does is pure magic. Such a brilliant martial arts actor.
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Ok, I just finished the whole thing, and wow. That last scene exceeded my expectations for just how loving stupid this show could get. "Hey, I'm just going to paint my treacherous confessions of ambition on a BIG loving WALL. No one will ever find out!" Holy loving poo poo. Every character on this show is functionally retarded. E. gently caress. I'm still laughing. This show trolled me good. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 08:09
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On Rotten Tomatoes, critics ate 27% positive while users are 92%. For comparison, Transformers 4 is 18% critics and 53% users. I have to say, I think the reviewer community got it wrong here. They were so eager to trash Netflix's expensive gambit, comparing it to GoT even though they're nothing alike, overblowing the nudity because something something exploitation of women, and somehow claim the show is racist even though their comparison to GoT is blatantly lazy and racist.
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Dec 21, 2014 08:47
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Hot take: people are just upset that the male protagonist is essentially a manic pixie dream girl.
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Dec 21, 2014 08:56
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Josh Lyman posted:On Rotten Tomatoes, critics ate 27% positive while users are 92%. White actors. Not even once.
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Dec 21, 2014 09:04
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Well I did what I could and gave the show a modest recommendation to my Facebook friends. I don't think I swayed anyone.
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Dec 21, 2014 09:24
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Josh Lyman posted:On Rotten Tomatoes, critics ate 27% positive while users are 92%. The crazy whiplash between dirty raw fighting and the crazy kung fu stunts I think is part of wuxia, which most people unfamiliar with it might see it as off-putting. The nudity is just there to me honestly, sometimes it's overdone like hell but I get why it's there, but it only exists for tone and it's usually an easy thing to knock because it ticks boxes for cable shows, especially when HBO pretty much requires female nudity to be there. The characters are just poorly written for the most part and the plotting is pretty schizophrenic, maybe the critics didn't take to that? I know I didn't. Echo Chamber posted:Well I did what I could and gave the show a modest recommendation to my Facebook friends.
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Dec 21, 2014 09:27
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Why the gently caress was the white guy sent to spy on a Song Chinese city, anyways? As for Marco's relative importance to the show and centrality in the plot, it skyrockets in the last few episodes, much to the show's detriment (and my annoyance). Like him suddenly becoming a siege engineer who personally oversees the efforts to destroy the wall. In reality, it was a bunch of Iraqi experts from the IlKhanate. Criticisms of the female nudity are not overblown. It really is all over the place and it is also nigh-uniformly done poorly. Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 09:28
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Mars4523 posted:Why the gently caress was the white guy sent to spy on a Song Chinese city, anyways? He didn't become a siege engineer. He was working with a siege engineer. What he did is not implausible in the slightest. He basically described what the machine looks like, how it works and what it's supposed to do, and the engineer and his men built it after a lot of trial and error. Think of Marco as a consultant there. Interestingly enough, it is one of the most historically accurate parts of the entire season. The difference is that the trebuchets were actually built by two Persian engineers. Slow News Day fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 09:53
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Stuporstar posted:Also, I'm up to episode 7, and yet again, their failure to explain some poo poo before it happens has made me go WTF again. This time it's Hundred Eyes just walking away from a fight with Sidao after being ordered to assassinate him. I'm guessing the next episode will fill me in, but this show has a real loving problem with setting up the plot dominos in an order that doesn't make the characters look like loving morons who do things that seem, at the time, inexplicably stupid. Mars4523 posted:Why the gently caress was the white guy sent to spy on a Song Chinese city, anyways?
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Dec 21, 2014 10:06
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I dunno guys, why would you possibly send the guy who doesn't look like a Mongol to spy on a city the Mongols are attacking?
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Dec 21, 2014 10:15
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Josh Lyman posted:I'm pretty sure you didn't get it because it seemed to me that Hundred Eyes really did intend to assassinate the Chancellor but withdrew when it was clear to him he couldn't win. Polo's wall survey was a backup. Then the scene was badly edited, because at the end of the scene, Hundred Eyes had defeated all the soldiers and it was just him and the evil chancellor in the room. Then the next time we see Hundred Eyes, he was telling Marco that he failed. If the evil chancellor had run out while Hundred Eyes was fighting the soldiers, the scene would made better sense.
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Dec 21, 2014 10:28
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I'm a bit confused by Yusuf's confession. Did he order the assassins? Or was he just saving Marco?
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Dec 21, 2014 16:17
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Doronin posted:This. Hundred Eyes is loving awesome. I don't care if the "practically invincible Kung Fu monk" has been done to death, he made the show so much more worthwhile. I agree, Hundred Eyes is one of my favorite characters and I would definitely enjoy an episode of him just owning Marco all day. Stuporstar posted:Ok, I just finished the whole thing, and wow. That last scene exceeded my expectations for just how loving stupid this show could get. "Hey, I'm just going to paint my treacherous confessions of ambition on a BIG loving WALL. No one will ever find out!" Holy loving poo poo. Every character on this show is functionally retarded. I am disappointed in myself for not noticing how stupid this was until you mentioned it.  Stuporstar posted:Also, I'm up to episode 7, and yet again, their failure to explain some poo poo before it happens has made me go WTF again. This time it's Hundred Eyes just walking away from a fight with Sidao after being ordered to assassinate him. I was under the impression that Hundred Eyes, being blind and all, couldn't figure out who was in the room, realized he made a huge mistake, and then fled. It's easy to forget that he has a major disability though, since this is literally the only time it ever seems to hinder him. edit: Echo Chamber posted:I'm a bit confused by Yusuf's confession. Did he order the assassins? Or was he just saving Marco? My takeaway from his confession speech was, "Marco must live, deus ex machina." Kublai's confusion and eventual acceptance mirrored my own. YeahTubaMike fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 16:22
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I think it was a bodge job on the editing frankly. All they needed to show was him jumping out the window or running out the door and it would have been sorted. Probably had a scene cut for whatever reeason
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Dec 21, 2014 16:33
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Yes the painting was dumb. No idea how they thought that was a good idea. As for the assassination attempt, the scene seemed pretty clear to me. With the alarm up there was no way to kill Sidao. He handled the first wave of guards, but there would be more and he couldn't both handle them and try and kill Sidao. If he had the element of surprise it would have worked, but instead he walked into a fight already going on and everything went haywire. Switching gears here, the brief wiki entry for the historical Jia Sidao is entertaining. quote:Jia Sidao was known for his corruption and incompetence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jia_Sidao FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 16:34
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Echo Chamber posted:I'm a bit confused by Yusuf's confession. Did he order the assassins? Or was he just saving Marco? He was just saving Marco. The final reveal at the end of the season implied that the Minister of Finance was behind all that.
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Dec 21, 2014 18:40
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qbert posted:He was just saving Marco. The final reveal at the end of the season implied that the Minister of Finance was behind all that. They heavily implied he was behind it back in episode six or there about. Because as soon as he finishes his defense argument to Marco he may as well have held up a sign saying "I did it". Just finished the series, not bad ending although last two episodes had some cripplingly bad weak points, especially with Yusuf. Marco Polo having to tell these guys about Alexander the Great and siege engines is just about the strangest thing ever seeing as how the Mongols were pretty good at sieges and Alexander the Great was famous all over the Muslim world. Sidao's secret weapon being firearms was particularly eye-rolling. Kung-fu battle was nice though and I got a good laugh at the Bond-villian painting reveal, but in a positive way. I'll echo the sentiment 'Not too bad, but definitely could have been better'.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:02
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Yeah I thought it was weird how Yusuf told Sidao about Claudius and Attila, but Marco had to explain to Yusuf about Alexander's most famous siege.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:15
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I really don't think that the actor who plays Marco Polo is That bad, i think the problem is more that the character is pretty vanilla, and has some bad writing going for him, for example his colorful language when describing things.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:52
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Oasx posted:I really don't think that the actor who plays Marco Polo is That bad, i think the problem is more that the character is pretty vanilla, and has some bad writing going for him, for example his colorful language when describing things. The thing that annoyed me in the early episodes is that Kublai is supposed to be impressed with the way he describes things, right? But Polo's descriptions weren't even that poetical, descriptive or special enough to really warrant that interest. I really enjoyed the first season - I'm certainly hoping there's a second season. They can easily remedy most of the criticisms we've made. Just don't make the bad guy paint a massive giveaway painting on his wall this time. That almost ruined it for me.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:13
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Josh Lyman posted:I'm pretty sure you didn't get it because it seemed to me that Hundred Eyes really did intend to assassinate the Chancellor but withdrew when it was clear to him he couldn't win. Polo's wall survey was a backup. Once again though, they failed to make that scene land. How do we know Hundred Eyes was outmatched? He'd kicked so much rear end up to that point, on top of easily kicking Sidao's rear end later, that him failing to assassinate Sidao seemed like him just giving up for no reason. So therefore, my brain went looking for reasons, and landed on it being a ruse, which was also stupid, but less stupid than Hundred Eyes sucking just because they needed Sidao alive for the next three episodes and wrote themselves into a corner. Either way, all the screenwriters accomplished with that was to create false drama. FuriousxGeorge posted:I dunno guys, why would you possibly send the guy who doesn't look like a Mongol to spy on a city the Mongols are attacking? You're forgetting how many ethnically Chinese people are in the Mongolian Empire, and with how many Chinese people helped Marco Polo get into the city, it would be ridiculous to assume none of them would have been willing to draw a picture of the wall for Kublai Khan. I have to admit though, I am being extra critical because the show at this point was regularly making me say, "Oh, come on!" and bouncing my head out of the story with its unending train of ridiculousness. By the time Sidao shoots the Empress with a hand-held canon, it pretty much became a Warner Bros. cartoon. There was just no taking it seriously anymore, which is why that last scene, with that loving painting, is so goddamned hilarious. It was like the punchline to a elaborately extended joke. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 20:38
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qbert posted:He was just saving Marco. The final reveal at the end of the season implied that the Minister of Finance was behind all that. Yeah, there was dialogue in that scene and later in the finale that I think makes it clear that Yusuf was lying. He was weary and feeling guilty for serving Kublai while being against his wars of conquest, and he decided that this was a honorable way out, and he could save an innocent life in the process. At the end of the assassination investigation, I think it was strongly implied in the last conversation between Marco and the tax collector's daughter that Marco knows Ahmad did it, but he can't publicly accuse him without proof, and he'd just be putting the tax collector's family in danger. And the painting was silly, yeah.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:04
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Subcomputer posted:Jack Weatherford's two, "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World" and "The Secret History of the Mongol Queens", are fair starts and available in audio. From there it goes easily into more specialized stuff though, I've got J. J. Saunders "The History of the Mongol Conquests" on my next list. There's a fair amount of easy access stuff out there really, but if you want to get into actual say perceptions of steppe people, why only nomads were allowed to learn Mongol and settled peoples' specialists were traded like good breedstock to improve their human herds then a lot of material falls flat. If you want full on descriptions of how Kaidu is at this time involved in a series of wars between the Jochids and Hulagu's Ilkhanate, oppressing the Chagatai khanate etc that Kublai will eventually be pulled into you're stuck with "The Secret History of the Mongols" - which is an awesome read, but all the cheaper versions leave a bunch out because it is also a very big read. Sober posted:Dan Carlin's Hardcore History has a 5-parter, mostly focused on Genghis (Chingis) Khan as well. Thanks the hardcore history podcast has been really good so far(steppe people and first episode of genghis). The books are at my local library and I have this next week off so will have some free time on my hands to check them out.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:31
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qbert posted:He was just saving Marco. The final reveal at the end of the season implied that the Minister of Finance was behind all that. Not at all. The point of the final reveal was that there were multiple people working against Kublai. It was a twist ending, not a reveal. Yusuf was indeed behind the assassination attempt. He is shown sitting in the corner in the inn that Marco and Byamba went to learn the secret assassin order's whereabouts. And his motivation for wanting to kill Kublai was rather simple: he was a very religious man and he hated the fact that Kublai's campaign was resulting in so much bloodshed. In one of the dialogues he basically implied that his real loyalty was to Allah and not to Kublai.
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Dec 22, 2014 07:29
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enraged_camel posted:Not at all. The point of the final reveal was that there were multiple people working against Kublai. It was a twist ending, not a reveal. Yeah sorry I didn't get that at all and basically completely disagree with your interpretation. No character on the show believed Yusuf was behind the assassination attempt, and even after his death like 5 different people told Marco how grateful he should be of Yusuf's "sacrifice". I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be holding him in such high regard posthumously if he actually tried to murder the Khan. This was to hit the audience over the head with the message that "no, he didn't actually do it." Also a giant painting at the end. qbert fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 08:32
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Pretty sure when Marco and Byamba were talking to Yusuf, he was in fact actually completely honest about everything. He did want out though, so he offered himself in exchange for Marco.
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Dec 22, 2014 08:36
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qbert posted:No character on the show believed Yusuf was behind the assassination attempt, and even after his death like 5 different people told Marco how grateful he should be of Yusuf's "sacrifice". I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be holding him in such high regard posthumously if he actually tried to murder the Khan. This was to hit the audience over the head with the message that "no, he didn't actually do it." And he said something when Kublai initially rebuffed his confession that was something like "If I didn't betray by my hand, I betrayed you in my heart." And the whole mood of the following scenes was somberly heroic. I definitely think he was lying.
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Dec 22, 2014 08:59
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I don't think it could have been any more clear that Yusuf was entirely innocent.
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Dec 22, 2014 10:44
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Stuporstar posted:
I think Kung Fu chancellor wanted them to know about the wall. Like its not like they could arrive and not notice it so I'm sure he didn't give that much of a poo poo about some European drawing it. At that point in the plot Kublai is pretty confident they can take the city if they can take the area that supplies it with food by starving them out. Angsty Son fucks that up earlier in the series but when Kublai goes they get it done easily because Kung Fu Chancellor has all the fighters in the city. Then they get through the wall and as we understand it lose calamitously. Like to the extent they got so many mooks killed they could lose in open battle because of diminished numbers and they can reasonably believe Kung Fu chancellor want's to march on them when what he really wants to do is shoot handcannons. I think Kungu Monk didn't kill Kung Fu Chancellor just because other people started turning up. Like it wasn't an easy fight and he's not supposed to be Neo in The Matrix. Kublai had him blinded presumably after he killed those 25 guys. Of course that's the problem with ultra fancy Kung Fu. If they had toned that down a bit so he actually looked more mortal visually it would have made more sense. Insane wall plan was hilarious though. Like the random guy delivering Murder Ho's food can't not notice it or anyone who goes back there for any reason.
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Dec 22, 2014 13:00
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It's a good point that the half broke wall was kind of a trap they wanted the Mongols baited in to. I think that wasn't fully appreciated because they kind of did a "We are spending the budget elsewhere..." thing on that whole battle. It was worth it for the trebuchets.
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Dec 22, 2014 13:29
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Just finished this today, excellent show! I did find it really distracting that nearly all of the characters had British accents though. The Mongolian horde all sound like they went to RADA.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:36
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Mars4523 posted:Criticisms of the female nudity are not overblown. It really is all over the place and it is also nigh-uniformly done poorly. What's good female nudity out of interest? I doubt it's possible to make one that won't feel gratuitous and unnecessary, since it's never going to be necessary to show a naked female for any kind of plot reason that I can think of.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:20
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tsob posted:What's good female nudity out of interest? I doubt it's possible to make one that won't feel gratuitous and unnecessary, since it's never going to be necessary to show a naked female for any kind of plot reason that I can think of. Well, in theory, it might make sense in order to demonstrate a character or setting, since hey, sex and nudity have been influential in human behaviour and politics since day one (see: ancient greek values on beauty), but outright showing it from an angle that lets the audience view said nudity at the bits that western society particularly considers contentious is harder to justify. After all, one can simply put an object in the way, or even simply shoot it from behind, and bam, 12A/PG-13. Of course, if a show has blood and gore anyway, then the notion of needing to 'shy away' from nudity if it makes sense in context can seem kinda silly. Add in people's different perspectives and moral values and its... tricky. In Marco Polo's case, there are occasional contexts where its understandable, but a lot of them could have been shifted to before or after, or otherwise done with the concerned parties having some clothes on. When the soldiers approach Mei Lin, for example, her disrobing in order to briefly distract them and have them lower their guard makes sense with both the context and character - her having to entirely take off her clothes however, not so much. At the very least I'm pretty sure the Chinese had underwear by that point. Or the Khan having his little test where Marco has to resist the obvious temptation of lust in order to show that he knows duty above personal desire - simple enough, but whilst they break it up with some symbolism to show the point, it still didn't need the sheer excess of shots that it had. Edit: I just realised, if the show manages to pick up a second season, then wouldn't it be set up to detail the mongolian invasions of Japan? Astro Nut fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 19:01
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That temptation scene was educational. One of the girls was holding a hand-crafted sex toy and I did not know they had those back in the day.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:14
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I, for one, won't be happy until all the harem girls are wearing temple garments
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Dec 22, 2014 19:18
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Too much discussion against nudity on tv. Someone gives the pro side so we have more... Hell, why are any of these characters wearing clothes? Naked Kublai Khan for the win!
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Dec 22, 2014 19:19
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Dalael posted:Too much discussion against nudity on tv. He could be totally naked and we'd never see a bit of genitalia, to be fair. Actually that does bring up a point - why was it only women getting nude? Is it simply because naked men aren't as appealing to audiences (for the most part, I mean)?
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Dec 22, 2014 19:22
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WastedJoker posted:That temptation scene was educational.
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Dec 22, 2014 19:30
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WastedJoker posted:He could be totally naked and we'd never see a bit of genitalia, to be fair. ...You know considering it all, that is a curious question. I mean, yes, its 'easier' to write in female nudity around the courtesans and such of the time period, but even then, most of the men still have their clothes on whilst they're going at it, and it couldn't be that difficult to throw in say, a bathhouse scene featuring just dudes. Or maybe Marco getting a fresh set of clothes after a hard day's training. Sure, they'd be a bit contrived, but that didn't stop the show on the other end of things now did it?
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Dec 22, 2014 19:31
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