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A Wizard of Goatse posted:why would you be playing multiplayer KSP and not working directly with the other players, it's not fuckin EVE. If you don't wanna play with other people just start a singleplayer session My friend, let me introduce you to the something awful forums and its denizens, the goons. Their highest need is to see fault in the ideas of others. See this very post of mine for an example. Their next highest need is to be antisocial loners. Their third highest need is to be self aware and ashamed of the first two needs and give paper thin justifications or ironic lampshades for how they don't apply.
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May 23, 2022 22:35
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:why would you be playing multiplayer KSP and not working directly with the other players, it's not fuckin EVE. If you don't wanna play with other people just start a singleplayer session as long as it's an impressive troll that takes effort, like relocating someone's space station from lko to somewhere usless like moho, it would be fun as hell tbh
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May 23, 2022 23:19
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:why would you be playing multiplayer KSP and not working directly with the other players, it's not fuckin EVE. If you don't wanna play with other people just start a singleplayer session So like do you plan to fly the same rocket with someone else? I'll be Jeb, you can be Bob? You go in and out of timewarp constantly while playing KSP. Or at least, I do! Just a rendezvous with a space station in Kerbin orbit I'm gonna go into and out of warp a half-dozen times. Even if you are working together on the same project, something like constructing a station will mean lots of waiting around while the other person is doing something, or forcing the other person to wait for you. The fact that the existing KSP mods started with locked timewarp and worked towards asynchronous timewarps as a main goal should inform you that locked timewarp isn't fun. ikanreed posted:Their next highest need is to be antisocial loners. Have you ever played minecraft with friends? The idea that everyone needs to be doing the exact same thing, in the same place, for it to be a social experience is dumb. Especially in a creative / building game.
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May 23, 2022 23:21
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Klyith posted:You go in and out of timewarp constantly while playing KSP. Or at least, I do! Just a rendezvous with a space station in Kerbin orbit I'm gonna go into and out of warp a half-dozen times. Even if you are working together on the same project, something like constructing a station will mean lots of waiting around while the other person is doing something, or forcing the other person to wait for you. Yeah, this. Time warp is used as much, if not moreso, than the actual engines of the space ship. I don't think you can have two KSP sessions happening together with people flying different missions, with them both having to share the same time warp rate. Granted I haven't ever thought I wanted to play KSP multiplayer, in no small part precisely because of stuff like that, but if I were to try and do some sort of cooperative goal with someone else, or with multiple random people as the nature of multiplayer gaming generally goes, we would all presumably be doing our own missions and in our own styles according to our varying skill levels, with the "multiplayer" element being the occasional rendezvous at a goal location or the use of each other's infrastructure such as fueling stations and planetary bases. So, to that end, I think it would be much better to give players as much independent control of time warp as possible, and bend everything else in the game to make that work. It is a vital component of getting around and forcing everyone else in the game to stop or go depending on what any other player wants to do, I don't think is going to make for a fun experience. If someone needs to stop to do a maneuver, there is no reason to imagine that everyone else has something they can do for however long that might be, is it fun to start designing a new craft only to have that also interrupted because now everyone is ready to go again and you need to watch for your next maneuver window? If I wanted a muiltiplayer component to KSP it's to see other people's space ships and what they've built up, the same thing I would currently use youtube videos and forums posts for. Which lends itself far better to asynchronous play, either in timescale manipulation or just flat out not having a multiplayer mode and sharing pictures with people, than it does having everyone trying to play KSP at the same time and having to schedule every bit of timewarping.
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May 23, 2022 23:30
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Why don't you just have the server be a list of objects and times when those objects trajectories have changed. That way you don't have to be playing in the server's "present" to interact with other peoples stuff. You can be at any time in the server's timeline, and invite the other players to sync their clocks with you if you want to interact with them in real time.
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May 23, 2022 23:57
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KSP2 could be KSP1 with vastly improved graphics and I’d be thrilled.
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May 24, 2022 05:23
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Klyith posted:So like do you plan to fly the same rocket with someone else? I'll be Jeb, you can be Bob? Sure? The main use cases I can imagine for multiplayer KSP are huge joint projects with a collective itinerary and too many plates for one person to keep spinning, or one guy pretending to be pilot and another playing mission control and so on. Which wouldn't be my cup of tea but at least beings something different to the game, versus what it sounds like you're expecting where multiplayer is played exactly like singleplayer, but everyone takes turns being the single player, and when it's not their turn fucks off to go play their own separate singleplayer game A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 06:56 on May 24, 2022 |
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May 24, 2022 06:42
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one thing that i havent seen yet is modding. if this game doesn't support modding at least at the same level as ksp1 it's loving overhello internet posted:KSP2 could be KSP1 with vastly improved graphics and I’d be thrilled. also this tbh
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May 24, 2022 14:01
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I'm about 5 years behind so this year was the first time I installed Astronomers and Restock. Conveniently it makes me feel the need for graphics that much less since those are such a big bump.
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May 24, 2022 14:26
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I haven't played since PC in 2014. I never broke 20FPS on that shitbox. How does the PS4 edition (or Enhanced Edition) measure up? I still need to finish Saints Row IV and replay Saints Row The Third but after those, I'll need something to sink my fingers into.
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May 24, 2022 14:47
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:why would you be playing multiplayer KSP and not working directly with the other players, it's not fuckin EVE. If you don't wanna play with other people just start a singleplayer session It can be a lot of fun just playing in a shared world working on your own projects but getting to see what other people are working on at the same time. You always have the option of pitching in together on some sort of megaproject but a lot of the time what you really want to do is build your own thing, invite other players over to check it out, and check out the stuff they've been building too. That's how a lot of people (including my daughter and I) play stuff like Minecraft/Space Engineers/OpenTTD, and it was also the idea behind the Kessler asychronous multiplayer server I hacked together for KSP back in the day. Klyith posted:You go in and out of timewarp constantly while playing KSP. Or at least, I do! Just a rendezvous with a space station in Kerbin orbit I'm gonna go into and out of warp a half-dozen times. Even if you are working together on the same project, something like constructing a station will mean lots of waiting around while the other person is doing something, or forcing the other person to wait for you. That too. Even if you're both working on the same thing and it's something in the Kerbin SOI, you're going to be constantly slamming in and out of warp to make rendezvous windows and whatnot.
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May 24, 2022 14:59
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Asynchronous time warp seems the best solution. It wouldn’t work for a competitive game since you need to be able to accurately account for what your opponent is doing but in a co op game it doesent matter if someone’s ship is zipping around the galaxy at hyperdrive speeds to get to you.
massive spider fucked around with this message at 15:11 on May 24, 2022 |
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May 24, 2022 15:08
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Current time warp isn't just zipping you around, it's zipping you and the bodies around. You could make time warp into velocity warp but now rendezvous indicators work weird when shifting gears, you need a different sort of transfer planner, and introduce a new sort of maneuver error, adding and removing 0s from your velocity at the wrong time. You could make SoIs instances but introduce fun things like when starting in different places and going somewhere common, it may be occluded by an unwanted SoI at the time you need to pass a spot. If you are starting at the same place and going somewhere common, you may need to take a different route if your epoch isn't synced up. All of this is doable but it personally feels icky because in a game about bodies having meaning - needing to escape gravity, wanting to visit, wanting to gravity brake, needing to avoid - async takes the bodies meaning away. In one form or another you are short circuiting distances, moving them away or near with what become gently caress-with-body-orbits-buttons. For example instead of spending dev time on all the edge cases for smooth operation of async they can just give admins a robust HyperEdit tool.
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May 24, 2022 17:00
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D34THROW posted:I haven't played since PC in 2014. I never broke 20FPS on that shitbox. i played on xbox for the hell of it and the controls just suck rear end, navigating the vab was a nightmare you also can't do poo poo like physics warp with a controller and while at least on xbox there is keyboard support, it is wonky and does not work right, ie physics warp just refused to toggle for me sometimes. i do hope ksp2 for console has full, non-wonky m+k support cause my pc likely won't play it well. DEEP STATE PLOT fucked around with this message at 17:21 on May 24, 2022 |
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May 24, 2022 17:15
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zedprime posted:Current time warp isn't just zipping you around, it's zipping you and the bodies around. That's not what an asynchronous time warp is at all. The whole game, planets and everything else, becomes asynchronous between players in different times. So when I time accelerate 3 years into the future to get my rocket to Jool, the planets are all in +3Y positions for me and everything is simulated exactly the same as normal single player. My friend who didn't time warp is at +0Y and everything is as normal for him. The whole game is desynced between the 2 players. When my friend is done with the thing that he didn't want to timewarp for, he can zoom forward to +3Y to join me and we're doing stuff together again. (And in a more ambitious implementation that I would prefer, I could go back to +0Y to do a mission with him, without losing any of the things I did in +3Y.) And that's what Wizard thinks would turn this into "single player", despite the fast that at any time that we want to do a coordinated mission, whichever person can timewarp to sync up with the other player again. It's like drop-in-drop-out co-op in a shared world. Klyith fucked around with this message at 18:51 on May 24, 2022 |
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May 24, 2022 18:48
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Sorry they were talking zooming around which describes timelines less. Timelines are... They are probably simplest to implement out of all these with a surfeit of hardrives and CPUs to data warehouse the whole thing. But I'm glad you are so confident in understanding how simple it is to link up with people because my brain is spinning. I run into the 4d chess and Achron problems where it's all perfectly logical and well put together and I have no idea how to put the pieces together in a fun way. I fall back to just wanting a way to advance the orrery and HyperEdit stuff to whatever theoretical meetup we were going to do instead of needing to do my maneuver nodes in 4 dimensions.
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May 24, 2022 19:06
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I think the way to do it is timelines, but objects not under acceleration that exist in the future have a ghost in orbit or on the surface that is where they would need to be in orbit at that time in the past to be where they are in the future timeline. This way there's a visual cue if you're about to park something in the past that'll frag something if you try to sync your clock with a player in the future. It's entirely doable, because to make that ghost all you have to do is roll the clock backwards on the other objects in the timeline as though they were always parked in that orbit rather than being launched there. It's not perfect, because you might be running a collision trajectory, but given that objects don't collide unless they're being looked at it's probably not going to come up.
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May 24, 2022 19:32
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I won't argue that it can't be done, but it's a lot of gameplay programming complexity for relatively little payoff. Imagine someone building a faster rocket and crashing into the past version of your probe 30 years ago while you're in the middle of piloting it. You have to resolve every scenario related to that kind of paradox. Because if you just say "you can't do that" then you prohibit intended roundevous of separated components. And I promise have objections to every clever resolution to that problem. It's the kind of gimmick you'd want a whole multiplayer game to be built around, not thrown on top as a way to make an otherwise intuitive system more fair in an entirely abstract way. When they make Kerbal Spacetime Program, I'll play it though.
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May 24, 2022 23:23
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ikanreed posted:I won't argue that it can't be done, but it's a lot of gameplay programming complexity for relatively little payoff. IMO it has massive payoff, in that multiplayer KSP is cool as gently caress. ikanreed posted:Imagine someone building a faster rocket and crashing into the past version of your probe 30 years ago while you're in the middle of piloting it. You have to resolve every scenario related to that kind of paradox. Because if you just say "you can't do that" then you prohibit intended roundevous of separated components. And I promise have objections to every clever resolution to that problem. The LMP solution is a that player focus locks out other players if they aren't time-synced. So you build an interceptor missile for my rocket in my past, but when you catch up to the dot on the map it doesn't exist in space. Until we sync to the same "present" you can't interact. Rendezvous with a craft another player is controlling in desynced time is afaik extremely difficult in LMP -- I think you'd pretty much have to sync first and then plot an intercept. This is something that could be easily improved in a designed system rather than a mod. For non-focused craft, whoever had the most recent focus has the "authoritative" version when a sync happens. So if you add a new part to the LKO space station, it'll be there when other players sync it. This lock system could be extended to allow forward and reverse time movement without much difficulty or paradox. An alternate solution might be strict ownership of craft: players can't interact with someone else's thing at all unless the other player is in the same focus. This has a big downside in gameplay in terms of having less interaction between player's things. (Though you could allow craft to be "public" such that whoever is currently controlling it is the owner -- this makes co-op space stations and such work). However it also eliminates the minecraft griefing problem, which might be a strong reason to go this route considering KSP is partly an edu-game for young people.
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May 25, 2022 01:28
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Klyith posted:IMO it has massive payoff, in that multiplayer KSP is cool as gently caress. Oops someone landed their new base on top of yours, but did it 7 hours ago, but also 10 years in the future. Oops that asteroid you grabbed is gone. (Or conversely, no one can ever mine it again, depending on how you apply your "locking" logic) Oops that mun rock magically disappeared 5 weeks from now but also 2 seconds ago, you can't get it. Oops that shared refueling station's ore reserves disappeared an hour in the future. You're stuck. You're only thinking of the simplest classes of potential problem, half solving them, then clapping your hands together and saying "problem solved". Time travel is a bad solution that you can keep hammering kludgey fixes onto until it sorta kinda works, and along the way sabotage most of the ways people would play together. It's not strictly speaking, impossible to do well, but it's not as all worth the development effort compared to just collaborating somehow on time flow. And you're not thinking about it from an implementation standpoint.
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May 25, 2022 01:53
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ikanreed posted:Oops that asteroid you grabbed is gone. (Or conversely, no one can ever mine it again, depending on how you apply your "locking" logic) Why are these problems? Whoever grabs the asteroid first owns it. Whoever picks up the mun rock first picks it up. Whoever empties the fuel reserves first has fuel. Resources getting consumed by real time, not giving a poo poo about the timeline or paradoxes, is a good way to do things because that means player communication trumps game state. If you don't want your friend to use the fuel in the refueling station, tell them not to use it. Then it doesn't matter whether they're in the future or past, you've told them you need the fuel and they don't take it. Or they do take it and yell "so long sucker!" as they rocket off. (Though mun rocks and similar science items that you "consume" would also be possible to just do client side -- my rock is different from your rock.) ikanreed posted:Oops someone landed their new base on top of yours, but did it 7 hours ago, but also 10 years in the future. Craft co-occupying space when players sync is a problem. In space there's a pretty easy solution: you can just bump the positions apart a little bit. On the surface though, not so easy. But also, how often do you imagine this will happen? For two players to land their bases on the same position while desynced (thus invisible / non-interactable to each other) they'd pretty much have to be trying to make it happen. If some of these "but what if" objections resolve with explosions, well that's a very KSP way to handle it. But if you don't like that, a universal solution: don't sync two craft into the same physics bubble. If your base and my base are on top of each other, one of us has to move before the two bases can be in the same simulation. ikanreed posted:And you're not thinking about it from an implementation standpoint. Nah you're just too wedded to thinking that a computer program has to adhere to some sort of "reality". Solving time travel paradoxes in a video game is in fact extremely easy, because video games aren't real.
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May 25, 2022 15:26
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Yeah my final opinion is just that that is kinda annoying and dumb.
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May 25, 2022 15:53
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Implementation is conceptually easiest if you just do simple timeline recording and say I give up on conflicts, yes. It's just you take a physics based persistent world and add the qualifier "sometimes." A simple timeline multiplayer sounds fine but it's complicated for players at best and feels icky for people at worst. The more hacks you add the closer it gets to just the instance version, or maybe KSP GitHub where you pull and commit craft in stable orbit that are phased to the current epoch so you can teleport to Eeloo today by running the decade long simulation in a local instance and commit yourself in to the party people are having out there.
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May 25, 2022 15:56
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i dunno why this conversation is even happening when a multiplayer mod exists for ksp1 right now that works well and has solutions for most potential issues that have been raised
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May 25, 2022 16:19
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DEEP STATE PLOT posted:i dunno why this conversation is even happening when a multiplayer mod exists for ksp1 right now that works well and has solutions for most potential issues that have been raised As far as I can tell, Klyith is mostly describing the way that mod works right now, in reality, and ikanreed is arguing that that can't possibly work despite the fact that we do in fact have a working example of it.
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May 25, 2022 17:38
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KSP multiplayer schemes are like assholes. Everyone has one, they've all got holes in them that you can plug with your thumb, and it's up to you to decide how enjoyable that is.
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May 25, 2022 17:47
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Klyith posted:Why are these problems? Whoever grabs the asteroid first owns it. Whoever picks up the mun rock first picks it up. Whoever empties the fuel reserves first has fuel. Can they top up the fuel tanker in the "past" so it's available to me here in the "future"? Can I take all the fuel that's there in the future and then Player B take all the fuel in the past, "doubling" the fuel? If not, can I take all the fuel now, then Player B also take all the fuel, then Player B replace all the fuel so I can get the future fuel? If the station is empty is there any way for Player B to refill the station after I get there real time, but before I get there KSP time, without involving actual real world time travel? I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but if I'm playing co-op KSP I can see plenty of scenarios where not being able to do 1 or 3 would really mess up our plans, while 2 would mess up our heads and 4 would mess up real-world causality.
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May 25, 2022 17:55
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ToxicFrog posted:As far as I can tell, Klyith is mostly describing the way that mod works right now, in reality, and ikanreed is arguing that that can't possibly work despite the fact that we do in fact have a working example of it. Jesus Christ. The very first thing I posted was the exact opposite of "it can never work". I said it's possible, but that you'd have to stack kludgey hack on top of kludgey hack to get around the problems created, and creates huge unnecessary programming complexity. Then you proposed kludgey hack after kludgey hack in the and  'd about it. There are real problems with your genius idea and your response to those problems seems like it's the first gross simplification that pops into your head, like it solves everything. You're either sacrificing playing together in a real way or you're sacrificing things mechanically making sense, and it wouldn't be so damned annoying if you just said "I guess I can understand how that might bother some people, but I still like that way" instead of this title wave of "no I completely solved that, by sacrificing a dozen features"
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May 25, 2022 18:07
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ToxicFrog posted:As far as I can tell, Klyith is mostly describing the way that mod works right now, in reality, and ikanreed is arguing that that can't possibly work despite the fact that we do in fact have a working example of it. I did start off, on the previous page, describing stuff that I would like to see & which are well beyond the existing mod. The idea about per-craft rollback history would totally need a lot more consideration of interaction between craft, and would allow more paradoxes. I like the idea because a) it gives players in MP the same ability to revert & try again when you lithobrake as in SP b) if KSP2 has interstellar colonization, then timescales are gonna be radically different than 1 anyways but it's also ambitious and complicated. Splicer posted:So this is the only one that's causing me a hangup. Let's say I'm connected to a fuel station and Player B is connected to the same station at the same time in human time but a year in the past in Kerbal time. In the LMP mod that exists now, two players can't be in control of the same craft at the same real-time. So when you dock to the fuel station, that locks out player B from docking to it, whatever their current game-time. Whichever player interacted with the station most recently (in real-time) has the "authoritative" version. So yes, no, no, no. This means that you can send that fuel "back in time" by filling up the station in +1Y and player B taking that fuel in +0Y, as long at you do it in that real-time order. But that's the only version of time-travel that's supported. If nobody has any fuel and you need to run the ore converter for a real hour to make fuel, everybody has to wait a real hour. ----- In my idea of per-craft history & rollback, the answers are a bit different. You wouldn't be able to send fuel back in time anymore, because if the station has no fuel at +0Y then filling it up at +1Y doesn't help. Resources would be a thing you'd track in the rollback history. But you would be able to dupe fuel by first draining the tank at +1Y and then draining it "again" at +0Y. However, infinite duping as per question 3 is a lot harder. Putting the fuel back into the station at +0Y is not immediately reflected to the other player at +1Y. In fact, since you've rolled back the station's history, the station should be marked as non-interactive until someone re-simulates that year. So to deliver your duped fuel to player B, you'd need to time-accelerate forward to B's time. Infinite duping would be possible if the players had full control over time, and could revert back to any previous in-game time. Preventing it would be difficult, so if resource dupes are a big negative then it's a major strike against the idea.
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May 25, 2022 18:56
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ikanreed posted:Jesus Christ. multiplayer ksp exists. right now. at this very moment in time. you can even play it yourself if you want! and shockingly, it works great and by no means feels like anything is a 'kludgey hack', and that's from a free mod made by enthusiasts and not a team of professional developers integrating it into the base game from the start
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May 25, 2022 18:57
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this is an enlightening discussion
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May 25, 2022 19:12
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ikanreed posted:Jesus Christ. I'm not sure who you think you're talking to but I haven't proposed poo poo and I have no idea what you think my "genius idea" is.
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May 25, 2022 19:18
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ToxicFrog posted:I'm not sure who you think you're talking to but I haven't proposed poo poo and I have no idea what you think my "genius idea" is. Okay sorry. I was not checking usernames. I apologize
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May 25, 2022 20:14
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So uh anyone got any cool spaceship pics? Please someone, please post some spaceship pics.
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May 25, 2022 20:33
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I thought we were discussing pushing release back by another year to add features that 80% of the player base doesn't want 
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May 26, 2022 00:43
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Otacon posted:So uh anyone got any cool spaceship pics? Please someone, please post some spaceship pics. Okay I've set up yet another career save where I start with enough science to get the basic aeroplane parts, and the plan is to get as far as I can with planes only and no parts abandoned/dropped.  I saw a buttload of "take this vip on a suborbital tour" contracts so here's my suborbital tourist ship.
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May 27, 2022 20:46
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I love it! The Octan flag takes me back to my LEGO days. How is landing? I've always had a hell of a time using those wheels on planes, let alone trying with a spaceplane landing from orbit.
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May 27, 2022 21:02
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I added the Octan flag to my list the first time I tried to make a bulk fuel mining colony. I also have the space police LEGO flag from when I sent a ship to investigate a shipwreck that happened. This is only suborbital so their drag and heat don't cause issues. Landing does need a soft touch, especially with the engines hanging out the back, but I used to play flight sims when I was a kid so it's fine. It's why I love planes so much.  I had to raise the jets slightly just because they struck the ground on landing if the terrain wasn't flat. I balanced the thrust vector by setting the upper jet to a lower percentage. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 21:24 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 21:13
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dude is there a lego exploriens flag???
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May 27, 2022 22:53
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It wouldn't take me long to do that. I should at some point
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May 27, 2022 23:05
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