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sean10mm posted:If we're going to have Bond race chat, can we at last have fun race chat by talking about how batshit insane Live and Let Die is? Because that movie kind of transcends ordinary racism and goes right into the plaid. Holy poo poo... I just looked up scenes from this movie after I saw this post and just... holy poo poo. Also, I did not know the song Live and Let Die was from this movie.
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Dec 28, 2014 06:18
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Dystram posted:Holy poo poo... I just looked up scenes from this movie after I saw this post and just... holy poo poo. The movie also has a cover version of the song in the movie! It's an R&B version being sung when he's captured for the second time at one of the villain's evil chain restaurants for black people that just don't give a gently caress if James Bond disappears into the wall or floor.
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Dec 28, 2014 06:31
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The book Live Or Let Die is hilarious. Especially if I'm recalling correctly, because I don't think Solitaire sleeps with him in the end. He rescues her like twice and spends the third quarter of the book preparing to attack Mr. Big's base and daydreaming in quite a bit of detail about loving her, and then at the end when he goes to seal the deal, she's all "no thanks". Would be unimaginable to happen to Movie Bond.
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Dec 28, 2014 06:42
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Dystram posted:Also, I did not know the song Live and Let Die was from this movie. 
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Dec 28, 2014 06:47
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Where else would the song have come from??  You guys also know this was the first big role for Jane Seymour right? Insane Totoro fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 06:52
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Insane Totoro posted:Where else would the song have come from?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7KMMxAQp8I
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Dec 28, 2014 06:53
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Idris Elba already had fanboys crying because he played a Norse God. Turned out that race didn't matter. Will Smith is going through the same for being Deadshot. Who cares what race a character is unless the race is purposeful for the story being told? I don't know that Elba would actually be a good choice for Bond, but why not give him a go. Though, if they do just reboot the whole thing again and go white, then Dan Stevens would be a good choice. He already nailed the 'charming, but dangerous' thing in THE GUEST.
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Dec 28, 2014 10:29
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Vaall posted:I want a black Gandalf while we're at it. Wish granted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=j-1qas-CL14#t=38
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Dec 28, 2014 10:30
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gohuskies posted:Especially if I'm recalling correctly, because I don't think Solitaire sleeps with him in the end. He rescues her like twice and spends the third quarter of the book preparing to attack Mr. Big's base and daydreaming in quite a bit of detail about loving her, and then at the end when he goes to seal the deal, she's all "no thanks". Would be unimaginable to happen to Movie Bond. Moonraker ends the same way, turns out the Bond girl was married the whole time and he doesn't get any.
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Dec 28, 2014 10:53
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I'm guessing the chances of a black Bond are pretty slim because he's half movie character, half luxury goods model. Wouldn't be surprised if they assumed using a black guy in their ads will harm product sales in Eastern Europe, China, Asia and so on.
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Dec 28, 2014 10:54
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Really, Idris Elba is a great actor and I would love to see him introduced into the franchise somehow but I don't think that changing Bond's identity to satisfy a groups socio-political agenda is the way to do it. Do people think that if he's cast that its going to somehow make the film industry less racist or something? I would prefer to let existing characters stand for themselves as is and continue to work and justify themselves in a modern perspective and have new characters be introduced and establish their own identity and achieve something great on their own merits. I actually think that could be really great, a spin off starring a new agent who has to work in the same world that Bond inhabits and seeing it all from another perspective.
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Dec 28, 2014 13:23
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FiftySeven posted:Really, Idris Elba is a great actor and I would love to see him introduced into the franchise somehow but I don't think that changing Bond's identity to satisfy a groups socio-political agenda is the way to do it. Do people think that if he's cast that its going to somehow make the film industry less racist or something? Yes. edit: I only want to Idris Elba to be James Bond to advance my progressive agenda. Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 13:28
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FiftySeven posted:Really, Idris Elba is a great actor and I would love to see him introduced into the franchise somehow but I don't think that changing Bond's identity to satisfy a groups socio-political agenda is the way to do it. Do people think that if he's cast that its going to somehow make the film industry less racist or something? I would prefer to let existing characters stand for themselves as is and continue to work and justify themselves in a modern perspective and have new characters be introduced and establish their own identity and achieve something great on their own merits. I actually think that could be really great, a spin off starring a new agent who has to work in the same world that Bond inhabits and seeing it all from another perspective. The thing is, the main reason people want him cast is not for any progressive agenda but because Idris Elba is awesome and would make a great Bond.
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Dec 28, 2014 13:31
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Noxville posted:The thing is, the main reason people want him cast is not for any progressive agenda but because Idris Elba is awesome and would make a great Bond. I disagree. Elba is awesome and he may or may not make a great bond. But the reason this is getting lots of press is because Elba is black. Like I said, I think that it could be really awesome to see him playing another character in universe, thats just how I would go about it. Mr. Flunchy posted:Yes.
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Dec 28, 2014 13:57
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FiftySeven posted:Care to elaborate? People do not go to see James Bond films based on the ethnicity of the lead, they go for exciting action, glossy luxury goods and attractive women. A successful black James Bond would prove that audiences are happy with a black lead in a traditionally white role and thus the industry will be less racist.
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Dec 28, 2014 14:14
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Mr. Flunchy posted:People do not go to see James Bond films based on the ethnicity of the lead, they go for exciting action, glossy luxury goods and attractive women. A successful black James Bond would prove that audiences are happy with a black lead in a traditionally white role and thus the industry will be less racist. Alternatively, people are already bitching and moaning about it now which suggests that people are NOT happy with a black lead in a traditionally white role as ridiculous as that is. Please don't get me wrong, I would be happy to see more representation for minorities in the film industry but taking an existing white character and using its legacy to "raise up" a minority doesn't seem all that progressive from my perspective.
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Dec 28, 2014 14:19
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FiftySeven posted:Alternatively, people are already bitching and moaning about it now which suggests that people are NOT happy with a black lead in a traditionally white role as ridiculous as that is. Please don't get me wrong, I would be happy to see more representation for minorities in the film industry but taking an existing white character and using its legacy to "raise up" a minority doesn't seem all that progressive from my perspective. They'll piss and moan and then they'll go and see it anyway because they're told to. And thus progress is made.
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Dec 28, 2014 14:21
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Mr. Flunchy posted:They'll piss and moan and then they'll go and see it anyway because they're told to. And thus progress is made. So you are saying that the film industry thinks the general public are idiots and have no will of their own? Well, that's hard to argue against in a world where Michael Bay continues to get funding. Anyway, I still don't think that's the best way to approach the issue. I don't mind the idea with a character like M, because M is simply a code name and is reassigned as and when is needed. Bond however is for better or for worse one established character who happens to be white. He also happens to be a bit of a poo poo and that is very much due to how he was raised and if you were to change bonds race then you are pretty much strong armed into changing his history too as it is would be exceedingly unlikely for a young black man to have that same upbringing in the UK over the past 40 years or so. As far as I recall, you are London based and you should probably know that as well as I do. If you change the characters complete history then what's the point pretending its the same guy any more? If you think that its irrelevant then fair enough, that's your opinion but I don't think that everyone who thinks otherwise is instantly anti progression and racist. EDIT: For what its worth I would be absolutely 100% fine with taking a new agent and assigning him the 007 codename. Even if he has to have functionally the same personality as Bond via a different origin story, that's fine but I think using the same exact name wouldn't work well. FiftySeven fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 14:45
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FiftySeven posted:So you are saying that the film industry thinks the general public are idiots and have no will of their own? Well, that's hard to argue against in a world where Michael Bay continues to get funding. The difference is that the character of James Bond is a trifling irrelevance in comparison to the gradual erosion of racial discrimination in Western culture. So what if you change his history? It doesn't matter. A writer clicks his fingers and suddenly he was (and has always been) born in Brixton.
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Dec 28, 2014 14:59
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Mr. Flunchy posted:So what if you change his history? It doesn't matter. A writer clicks his fingers and suddenly he was (and has always been) born in Brixton. Do you really think it doesn't matter? Think of the character you are most attached to in fiction. Wouldn't you be a bit put off if an author/writer decided to change established fundamentals of the character for the sake of it? As an example, Harry Potter was pretty much my favourite book series when I was growing up. If Warner Bros decided to remake the series as a new set of films where Harry was no longer a young white British Boy but instead was a young Spanish kid instead, I would have some serious questions to ask about the direction they would be taking the franchise in. But using your argument, the writer clicks his fingers and we all have to be fine with it instantly? I really don't think its as sensible an argument as you are trying to present it to be.
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Dec 28, 2014 15:16
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gohuskies posted:Especially if I'm recalling correctly, because I don't think Solitaire sleeps with him in the end. He rescues her like twice and spends the third quarter of the book preparing to attack Mr. Big's base and daydreaming in quite a bit of detail about loving her, and then at the end when he goes to seal the deal, she's all "no thanks". Would be unimaginable to happen to Movie Bond. The best part is him hemming and hawing about being attracted to her because she's mixed and in the end she just goes, "yeah maybe another time".
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Dec 28, 2014 15:25
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Make Elba a villain. My major complaint about the Craig era is a lack of great actors in that role. Look at Brosnon's - Bean, Pryce, Càrlyle. Even going back you had people like Christopher Lee who also acted as technical advisor, Kotto, Frobe. I assume Waltz will be excellent but Craig still has years to go. Getting Elba to play Bond after Craig is done is academic - he will be too old by the time his contract is up. Remember how Moore looked in View to a Kill? If a Batman movie villain can win an Oscar, let a Bond movie have a go at it. Edit: also, you really want to be progressive? Make Bond an Indian. How many Indian action heroes can you name? monster on a stick fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 15:32
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FiftySeven posted:Do you really think it doesn't matter? Think of the character you are most attached to in fiction. Wouldn't you be a bit put off if an author/writer decided to change established fundamentals of the character for the sake of it? As an example, Harry Potter was pretty much my favourite book series when I was growing up. If Warner Bros decided to remake the series as a new set of films where Harry was no longer a young white British Boy but instead was a young Spanish kid instead, I would have some serious questions to ask about the direction they would be taking the franchise in. But using your argument, the writer clicks his fingers and we all have to be fine with it instantly? I really don't think its as sensible an argument as you are trying to present it to be. I'm not attached to any fictional characters. It's juvenile to care about the welfare/status/race etc of fantastical non existent people.
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Dec 28, 2014 15:34
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monster on a stick posted:Make Elba a villain. My major complaint about the Craig era is a lack of great actors in that role. Look at Brosnon's - Bean, Pryce, Càrlyle. Even going back you had people like Christopher Lee who also acted as technical advisor, Kotto, Frobe. I assume Waltz will be excellent but Craig still has years to go. Getting Elba to play Bond after Craig is done is academic - he will be too old by the time his contract is up. Remember how Moore looked in View to a Kill? Personally, I thought that Mads Mikkelsen and Javier Bardem were both fantastic villains. Elba could also make a great nemesis though, I would like that a lot. Elba as a recurring Spectre counter intelligence agent could be pretty interesting. Mr. Flunchy posted:I'm not attached to any fictional characters. It's juvenile to care about the welfare/status/race etc of fantastical non existent people. And yet people do so constantly. Its pretty normal and understandable behaviour.
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Dec 28, 2014 15:41
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FiftySeven posted:And yet people do so constantly. Its pretty normal and understandable behaviour. True, but those people shouldn't be the arbiters of what or who a character is. Catering to these types leads to dull, repetitive media by stifling risk.
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Dec 28, 2014 15:57
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Jesus christ why did I read this thread this world is hosed
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Dec 28, 2014 16:13
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Mr. Flunchy posted:True, but those people shouldn't be the arbiters of what or who a character is. Catering to these types leads to dull, repetitive media by stifling risk. To me, Risk would be making new exciting characters in interesting franchises, not using an existing one as a crutch. And lets be real here, alienating the core fan-base of a franchise just leads to its death. The great stuff happens when you strike a balance between innovation and the familiar. Catering to an existing fan-base can lead to bad films yes but you have to keep it similar enough to get the people in the seats.
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Dec 28, 2014 16:21
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FiftySeven posted:To me, Risk would be making new exciting characters in interesting franchises, not using an existing one as a crutch. And lets be real here, alienating the core fan-base of a franchise just leads to its death. The great stuff happens when you strike a balance between innovation and the familiar. Catering to an existing fan-base can lead to bad films yes but you have to keep it similar enough to get the people in the seats. Yeah, but I reckon you could do that regardless of whether its Elba, Craig, or someone else. Bond is an established property people go to see, especially on a reboot, even if they're confident its going to suck. Just see the Hobbit thread to see this in action, where millions of people are shouting from the rooftops that the Hobbit movie trilogy has sucked from day one, yet feel 'obligated' to see it through. Doesn't look like sucking is hurting their box office any.
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Dec 28, 2014 17:13
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gohuskies posted:Especially if I'm recalling correctly, because I don't think Solitaire sleeps with him in the end. He rescues her like twice and spends the third quarter of the book preparing to attack Mr. Big's base and daydreaming in quite a bit of detail about loving her, and then at the end when he goes to seal the deal, she's all "no thanks". Would be unimaginable to happen to Movie Bond. To be fair, this kind of happens in Quantum of Solace.
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Dec 28, 2014 17:13
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I don't understand why it's this big a deal to cast someone perfect for the role and happen to do some good for the series and stuff. I just saw the whitest dude in Christian Bale play an Egyptian or Jewish person of some kind. I think he's British. This poo poo goes on all the time in Hollywood since forever.
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Dec 28, 2014 17:14
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FiftySeven posted:To me, Risk would be making new exciting characters in interesting franchises, not using an existing one as a crutch. And lets be real here, alienating the core fan-base of a franchise just leads to its death. The great stuff happens when you strike a balance between innovation and the familiar. Catering to an existing fan-base can lead to bad films yes but you have to keep it similar enough to get the people in the seats. This only applies with a well devoted fanbase. Most people see Bond as a summer popcorn film, so whatever changes aren't terribly important as long as they fulfill the summer popcorn film requirements. I'm still not really hot on Elba as Bond though because we saw most of his character in Luther. Him as a villain would be interesting though if they took Luther to its logical extremes (and jazzed it up by making him a spy instead of a cop). e: Right now I'm imagining basically Elba as Liam Neeson from Taken, where he's very brutal and hands on to accomplish his goals (whatever they may be; maybe revenge on an agent for killing his wife).
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Dec 28, 2014 17:30
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Apples McGrind posted:To be fair, this kind of happens in Quantum of Solace. He also gets beat up with a fire extinguisher by a guy who's like 5'2.
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Dec 28, 2014 17:30
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I probably would have, had I known Live and Let Die the movie existed.
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Dec 28, 2014 17:40
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FiftySeven posted:To me, Risk would be making new exciting characters in interesting franchises, not using an existing one as a crutch. And lets be real here, alienating the core fan-base of a franchise just leads to its death. The great stuff happens when you strike a balance between innovation and the familiar. Catering to an existing fan-base can lead to bad films yes but you have to keep it similar enough to get the people in the seats. Oh you mean like Star Trek? Or Star Wars? Wildly successful movies that "everybody hates"?
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Dec 28, 2014 17:48
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Dystram posted:I'm not saying that Elba should never play Bond, or that Bond can't be played by a black guy. I would prefer if Elba were the next Bond since I really enjoy his performances. Fleming was also writing these books 50some years ago and the books are kinda loving racist, so maybe citing them as an argument is a bad idea!
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Dec 28, 2014 17:59
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Literally The Worst posted:Fleming was also writing these books 50some years ago and the books are kinda loving racist, so maybe citing them as an argument is a bad idea! I didn't cite them as an argument. My only point is that it's perfectly OK to want portrayals of characters to be true to the source material, including appearance. Also, the backdrop is Bond is white western imperialism, so maybe the movies and books shouldn't exist at all since they're tainted by racism.
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Dec 28, 2014 18:05
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I've always had this feeling that Bond fans were secretly the worst (see: the dumb code name theory) it's just that their opinions don't get spouted out as often or as brazenly as Star Wars/Marvel/Star Trek etc. It's like leaving the room because your loud racist uncles are arguing and the cousin you thought was cool is like "hey, ever seen Loose Change?" LesterGroans fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 18:15
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I have no idea why the code name theory drives me mental but whenever someone supports it I want to pull my own head off.
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Dec 28, 2014 18:18
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Crackerman posted:I have no idea why the code name theory drives me mental but whenever someone supports it I want to pull my own head off. It only exists because autistic nerds need everything to "make sense" so Bond's different appearances need to be explained somehow. See: the incessant need to tag and catalog and explain everything in Star Wars and Star Trek so that nothing is fun or left to the imagination.
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Dec 28, 2014 18:30
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Dystram posted:It only exists because autistic nerds need everything to "make sense" so Bond's different appearances need to be explained somehow. See: the incessant need to tag and catalog and explain everything in Star Wars and Star Trek so that nothing is fun or left to the imagination. It only exists because the crossdressing director of Die Another Day wanted to find a way to get a Sean Connery cameo that never even materialised and the dumb idea came out of his mouth and stuck around.
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Dec 28, 2014 18:52
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