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Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Oh boy, a Digimon thread. I have dreamed of this.

Astro Nut posted:

And then Hunters happened.

We'll see how things go with Try.

Can we just ignore Hunters ever happened? Please? Hunters makes Frontier look like the crown jewel of the franchise (which it is not, Tamers and V-Tamer have that role)

Really hoping Tri is a great series, as much as I have my serious doubts about it. 02 was already a mess (a very entertaining mess with the best character Digimon has seen, but a mess nonetheless), and this is a sequel made years later with an art style I don't really enjoy...well, I can hope for the best anyways. At the very least, I really hope the Megas that didn't appear in Adventure get to appear now (and in less random ways than the Golden Digimentals movie did...hi, entirely out of nowhere Seraphimon and Holydramon)

Even if it is bad it won't be as bad as Hunters, so it does have that to its favour!

Also, I feel the need to point this out - most people here will know the anime. This is good and all, because the anime is good (except Frontier and Hunters, those are not good), but for anyone who hasn't read any manga, do so. The manga are really, really good. Next is probably the worst of the lot and it is still really good, just...it came out alongside Savers, using some of Savers' own concepts (the Digivice iC and Digisoul, apart from that it sticks far closer to the V-pets) and Savers was just awesome, so it looks worse by comparison. The Xros Wars manga is a step up from the already great anime, even if it suffers from a pace that feels way too fast at times, and the ending screams cancellation due to how abrupt it is (an abrupt ending is still better than Hunters, mind you, but...the manga then confirms Tagiru exists in that verse too, so I even got hopeful we'd get a Hunters manga that fixed that piece of poo poo...never happened, of course).

Beyond these two is V-Tamer, which started before Adventure, ended after Frontier, had crossovers with 02, Frontier and the WonderSwan games (not Tamers, Ryo appears but it's pre-Tamers Ryo), and is...I will have to steal from a previous post, 100% awesome. See how I put V-Tamer on the same level as Tamers above? I fully stand by this. V-Tamer is just amazing. It managed to give character development to Daisuke and Takuya, which their own series failed to! It has a protagonist that is an actual tactician and wins through strategy instead of brute forcing it and the power of feelings! I don't want to spoil anything, just read V-Tamer!

If anyone only watched the Adventure series (as at least one poster has), fix this. Adventure is good (starts really badly, but shows constant improvement, the Dark Masters arc is one of my favourites ever), and 02 is an entertaining mess as I've said before (with the best character, I love Ken), but after that it is Tamers which...I will never really accept as a show for children. Mostly because kid me hated Tamers, not because of nostalgia for Adventure but simply because I couldn't really follow it, I guess. As an adult I rewatched it (and everything, so my balance is based on adult memories) and it became my favourite. Such depth is rarely seen in anime in general, and having a Digimon series that emphatizes the Digi part of the name is something I want dearly to keep happening.

Frontier is poo poo, skip Frontier. Always skip Frontier. Great idea (it's Sentai as gently caress, but hell, I like Sentai), but the execution was awful. You could cut everyone apart from Takuya and Kouji and the series would be the same. Adventure and 02 were better with its non-lead/rival characters, at least there they didn't lose all their powers to make the lead and rival more awesome, nor did they not get to shine in their very own entrance episodes. And the Royal Knights arc, holy poo poo the Royal Knights arc. On my rewatch of every series mentioned above, Frontier was the only one I didn't finish, the moment I got to the Royal Knights arc I had to leave out of sheer boredom. For context, the Royal Knights are by far my favourite group in Digimon, so that the arc they lead is possibly the worst Digimon has ever had hurt that much more.

Good things of Frontier: Koichi, second only to Ken. Also the villains, both the Dark Warriors and LordKnightmon were really good characters, to the point I tended to cheer for the villains.

And then there's Savers. Watch Savers. Teenager (not kid!) decides to punch poo poo and holy poo poo does he punch it. He punches everything. Masaru is the best lead. Savers has its flaws (the beginning is slow, it tends to become The Masaru Show), but overall it is a really good series that I fully recommend to everyone. If only to see Masaru punch. Keep punching, Masaru. Also it had the Royal Knights, but more and their arc was not poo poo (nor the highest point of the series). It also had the most despicable villain Digimon has seen, and man is he enjoyable to watch. And enjoyable to watch getting punched.

Xros Wars is good once you get over how sheerly different it is - replacing evolution for DigiXros (Digimon fuse to become stronger, rather than turning into new forms), having humans without Digivices, having entire armies for the children with Digivices instead of one partner...It is different, and it turned me off pretty badly at first, but once I got accustomed to it I learned to really enjoy it. It has its flaws beyond this - wild tonal shifts, somewhat forced comedy (Riku Sanjo staple, here), not taking full advantage of the cast, the girl of the team becomes progressively more useless as the series goes on (Digimon staple, here, for anyone not named Ruki, who is the best), and it apparently had a third arc. Apparently. We do not talk about it, ever. It did not happen.

And then there's the X-Evolution movie, that focuses entirely on Digimon, including the Royal Knights (sorta...could've done more with that...). It's probably the most depressing work in the franchise (in a good way, not in a low quality way), and I fully recommend it. Just...be ready for some tears.

I don't know what more to say. I consider myself a bit of a Digimon savant (much as I've learned more today thanks to TFRazorsaw's posts, thank you!), and I truly love the franchise. If I keep talking I will probably look like even more of a fool, so I'll just shut up.

Digimon is really enjoyable, you guys.

EDIT: Oh, I know what I should say! Here's a flowchart that depicts every group, connection and the like (or as close as you can get) in the core verse. Not made by me, but by the admins at Digisoul.net, and it is in Spanish. If people want I can translate it, it's big as gently caress but I have a lot of free time.

Blaze Dragon fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jan 2, 2015

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Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



The series shows no plot until the very end, being mostly a monster of the week series, with said monster of the week episodes not even being particularly interesting or unique. It ignores every character it introduces apart from the main, who is thoroughly unlikable and yet gets all the spotlight. It has constant animation mistakes and overall the entire series looks pretty bad (though the stock footage evolution scenes might be the best in the franchise), showing that they didn't even have a budget. It has no character development whatsoever (apart from Yuu in what little time he gets), the big bad comes entirely out of nowhere with no foreshadowing whatsoever even when they had great chances to do so, the main character gets a power up that is never explained (what the hell was Superior Mode?), and the one thing that could've made the series worth remembering, the crossover with previous series, is badly used, lasts not even a full episode, shows how little Toei cared (sure, don't bring back the Digimon VAs, it's not like this is a series known for calling attacks or anything!), and ends up in all of the previous leads becoming power ups for our newest greatest main character.

tl;dr gently caress Tagiru, and gently caress everyone who made this series possible. Even Riku Sanjo, as much as I usually love his writing.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



TFRazorsaw posted:

Uh, several digimon VAs came back for the crossover. They just couldn't get too many of them.

again, this series was literally made to fill a couple of months between different shows.

None of the Digimon VAs came back for the crossover proper. Masaru's Agumon was not voiced during the crossover episode, only during its previous appearance. Taichi's Agumon, as well as Gomamon and Tentomon only got their voices because their VAs were already working in Hunters (Shoutmon, Takuya, Psychemon/Dorulumon, respectively), and in fact this is likely the only reason why the last two got to appear at all, alongside Joe (whose VA might be the most important Digimon has ever had, considering how he appeared in every single series, being Damemon in Hunters, as well as both Joe and Grani (who got more lines than Damemon in the entire series) in the crossover) and Chakmon (whose VA is the same as Gumdramon's). V-mon's VA was also back...in a previous episode, as a different character.

It made the episode very weird to watch, because none of the calls you'd expect to be there were. The only attack calls we got were WarGreymon's Gaia Force and Aldamon's Brahma Shil, the former because his VA was already in the series as said, and the latter because it would've been overboard to not even get the human VAs (which they did with Yamato and Mimi anyways...the latter even weirder since AiM said she was going to appear, then...didn't...). As a matter of fact, Omegamon and Susanoomon don't get any attack calls at all, making the whole thing even weirder.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Rodyle posted:

I will import the Japanese BDs in a heartbeat if Toei has the gall to just make the villain Myotismon again in Tri.

I laugh at you if you think this isn't exactly what's going to happen. Adventure had it, 02 had it, Xros Wars paid homage to it (NeoVamdemon is super cool though), and I was shocked when Vamdemon and his evolutions were basically made cannon fodder in Hunters.

What I'm saying is, go preparing the money.

Omnicrom posted:

Yeah, she was set up that way. Of course Miyako (and Iori) was dreadfully mismanaged so I don't blame you for not remembering. 02 really feels like there were too many cooks at work on it, and the result is something bizarrely half-baked. Say what you like about Daisuke, he's one of the only people who actually had something resembling a consistent character throughout.

IIRC, this is exactly what happened. 02 ended up with a lot of writers, which is why there were so many half-assed/dropped plots during the second half. Dagomon comes to mind, Konaka wasn't allowed to continue and so it never amounted to anything. This, however, also ended up with Konaka getting his own series, and Tamers is the peak of Digimon anime, so it was well worth it.

I'd say Ken's character was even more consistent than Daisuke's. Daisuke had episodes in which he showed doubt (the Deltamon episode comes to mind), which was bizarrely OOC and blatantly there because the episode couldn't really continue otherwise. Apart from that, his character is consistent in that he never undergoes any kind of growth outside of one chapter of V-Tamer (which is, sadly, noncanon to 02, because god it made Daisuke likable). Ken's character arc is very clear (probably even more clear with knowledge of the WonderSwan games) and, oddly enough for 02, very well executed, and continues until the very last episode. Ken alone is why I can't ever call 02 bad, it was a mess with lots of flaws and built on top of blatant plot holes (the Crests thing makes absolutely no sense), but one character got an arc that might surpass Tamers in sheer depth. Also the Kaiser, Arukenimon and Mummymon were cool villains, and Tommy Wiseau was okay. Vamdemon was horrible, Demon and Dagomon never lived up to their potential because of the flaws already stated, but basically half the villains were cool.

Countblanc posted:

If I'm just looking for a digimon game with lots of cool -mons to level up and fight with, and I don't particularly care about The Lore (the fewer cutscenes the better), which one should I get?

Considering that nothing from Lost Evolution onwards was translated, I will back the rest up on Dawn/Dusk. I will also state again to prepare to grind, but this is a flaw of basically every Digimon game, and I guess Dawn/Dusk is still better than Digimon World 3 on that (as much as I did enjoy World 3 because...I was a weird kid, I guess, I can't tolerate it now)

If I have to say one game I truly think is good about Digimon, I fully recommend Digital Card Battle for the PS1. It is a really fun game and even now I enjoy it immensely. It's a card game though, not a RPG, but still, it's really good, which is something I can't say about any other Digimon game (Rumble Arena's a cool fighter though, RA2 is not)

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Omnicrom posted:

Ugh, Black WarGreymon was the Nadir of 02. His death was utterly pathetic yet everything that waste of time deserved. The best part about his death is that it didn't mean a drat thing. He didn't actually hinder anyone because the show implies that Oikawa would have ended up in that pseudo-space anyways, if you go back and watch that episode compare it with Adventure 99 because it turns out Oikawa chose the wrong card.

It's a really nice detail. Oikawa is being controlled by Vamdemon, and the card door was originally Vamdemon's as well. Vamdemon absolutely needed Oikawa to get to the World of Dreams, so he had him screw up the door opening by using the Agumon card instead of the Gomamon one, forcing him into a world he did not want to go through instead of the Digital World.

For all the last part of 02 was bad, I really liked that.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Dexie posted:

How was the Data Squad game on the PS2? Anyone played it? I feel like playing through a Digimon game but I don't know if I want to go through Dusk/Dawn again.

...I'm probably going to go through Dusk/Dawn again. They're worse then Korean MMOs when it comes to the grinding, but they still have neat battle systems and manage to be charming despite their many flaws.

Don't even bother with Data Squad, it's a really bad game. The battle system itself is weird, it's extremely grindy, the battles are slow and not fun, the later bosses feel endless with how much HP they have...

I'd stick to Dawn/Dusk, for whatever flaws they have they aren't nearly as bad as Data Squad. Or as Digimon Masters Online, I played that for a while then quit out of sheer rage because my eggs kept breaking and I kept losing the Dragon data I spent so much time farming. I just wanted a loving Guilmon, game! Is that too much to ask?!

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



As someone who has never watched the US dub and everything he's read about it makes him sick, I have to wonder why people defend it so much. I have to defend my own Latin American dub though, directly from the Japanese version and masterfully dubbed, though with a bit of confusion over which names to use (they always stuck to the same, but it was a weird mix of original and dub names). Apparently Savers was dubbed from the US version, but by that time I was already watching subs anyways.

SpazmasterX posted:

I want to know why the power curve was completely unfair to secondary characters for four seasons before they finally went "Huh maybe someone besides the kid in goggles and his broody rival should get the strongest/unique digivolution or mode change."

All four main characters (Takato, Ruki, Jen, Ryo) in Tamers get Matrix Evolution/a Mega form, as does Impmon. While Takato gets a form beyond it in Crimson Mode, it's used once and just everyone reaching Mega was a massive step in the right direction from how main character-centric Adventure and 02 were. And then Frontier was even worse, and Savers gave all four mains the super mode and it was great.

And then Xros Wars was weird and gave two out of three a Super Evolution. Poor Nene. At least the manga rectified it and even Akari and Zenjirou get to evolve Digimon.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

Sup Latin American dub buddy

The latin american spanish version of Butterfly is better



If anyone hasn't listened to them, the Latin American songs are really, really good. Here, I'll link you to them, it was really nice to hear them back again myself too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=565i1ZMak4A

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Some info from tri has appeared in the Otomedia issue from February. Quoting Bokutachi no Digital World (with some grammar corrections):

"The 8 chosen children will meet at the beginning of the story, the hint for the new anime in overall is hidden in the monologue at the end of last episode of Digimon Adventure 02. How to fix the issues between Digimon and humans when they are quickly getting closer?"

It's definitely an interesting premise, I hope that it delivers. I'm quite a bit more interested in tri now than before.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Kurui Reiten posted:

I want the first ambassador to the Digital World to be just some random politician, and the first ambassador to the real world to be like loving Cyberdramon, in a well tailored suit, trying to fit into elevators and poo poo.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Brony Hunter posted:

However, Gatomon DID reach her Champion state naturally (which implies she was much older than the other partner Digimon) which was probably why she rarely reverted to Rookie or anything lower.

I don't think this is the case. The Digieggs of all eight Chosen's Digimon were together at first (as seen in the flashbacks in the Dark Masters arc), so they likely hatched around the same time too. Tailmon just had a far harsher life than the rest, and with that, a far greater need of strength, causing her to evolve from Baby I to Adult all on her own, while the rest lived more relaxed lives and as such could stay on their Baby II forms until they met the Chosen (and were forced into battle).

Her lack of reversion to lower levels is also explained (I think during the VenomVamdemon part of the Vamdemon arc), because she's been more trained than the rest, she can keep her Adult form even after Perfect evolution. Agumon is also able to keep his Child form at that point after becoming MetalGreymon, though the rest are unable to not become Baby IIs after evolving into Perfects.

During Adventure 02, Tailmon regresses to Plotmon after Jogress, and Patamon regresses to Tokomon, both only one level below their usual. Everyone else regresses to their Baby I forms, two levels lower, suggesting that they're more experienced and trained than the other four.

KoB posted:

They also seemed to treat Angemon as way more powerful than the other champions.

Constantly. Patamon as Angemon and HolyAngemon gets treated as far stronger than anyone else, even Digimon above his level. Angemon is able to do far more to Vamdemon than MetalGreymon and the rest of the Perfects (not counting Angewomon), and HolyAngemon is vital to beat Piemon, who had defeated WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon before. Even in 02, HolyAngemon is able to fight evenly with BlackWarGreymon, and only loses because BWGreymon destroys the Holy Stone that's allowing Patamon to keep his Perfect form.

On the other hand, the Angemon line gets treated horribly outside of these. Angemon dies against Devimon (the only partner Digimon in Adventure to do so), Seraphimon gets destroyed by Cherubimon in The Golden Digimentals and only serves as a glorified powerup for V-mon and Terriermon, both forms get annihilated easily in Frontier, and another Angemon is killed by Baalmon in Xros Wars.

Digimon just has a really weird love-hate relationship with Angemon, where he either is a total badass or cannon fodder that'd make Krillin proud. No middle point.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Rudoku posted:

Hell, the old PSX card game had two different Gatomon. One Rookie (as a Partner), one Champion.

That's because Digital Card Battle was based on the Adventure and 02 anime, and every Partner card was a 02 Partner (all of whom had two Armor Evolutions, adding some nice monsters that didn't get to shine in the series, Shadramon for instance). However, card fusion was also a thing, and you can't fuse Partner cards and they had to have the anime Jogress evolutions, so there's a 02 Tailmon card (the Partner card, Child level) and an Adult Tailmon card (referred to as R-Tailmon in-game, and has a special Jogress animation with Aquilamon for the Silphymon card)

To add to this, every 02 partner has a special arena for them and their evolutions, named Extra Arena, plus some appear in the normal arenas of their cities as well. Tailmon has both her Child and Adult forms as different encounters, shown by having different mugshots (in one, her tail can be seen and she clearly doesn't have the Holy Ring).

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

That game was loving awesome.

I never managed to get BlackWarGreymon to show up or the Miracles Digi egg, though.

It's definitely my favourite Digimon game, and probably my favourite PS1 game, up there with FF Tactics. It's basically the only Digimon game I will call good without a second thought, and I fully recommend it.

Rudoku posted:

And Leomon. Never forget Leomon.

Leomon keeps to one side of the love-hate though, and it's definitely hate. If a Leomon appears, he dies. Even if he is or was a human (hi, Koichi and Suguru). I sure hope tri brings back (Saber)Leomon so he can die again, 02 felt so empty without a Leomon dying!

AlternateNu posted:

Yeah. Didn't they have the whole Data -> Virus -> Vaccine triangle? Pretty much all the partner digimon are Data types which are naturally weak to Virus types (the entire Devimon evo line, Piedmon, Puppetmon, etc.) and Angemon/Gatomon were the only Vaccine types in the team. So, yeah, it was a mix of Angemon being strong for a Champion and getting a natural edge against 90% of the big bads due to typing.

I mean, they also treated Andromon like a loving powerhouse. He was a Champion holding off Megas in the second half of Adventure.

The entire Agumon, Piyomon, Gomamon and Tentomon lines are Vaccine. Only the Gabumon and Palmon lines are Data, making them an absolute minority in the first team (that had no Virus whatsoever, Wormmon was the first Partner to be Virus not counting SkullGreymon, and Guilmon was the first Partner to keep being a Virus during his entire line).

Andromon is a Perfect, not an Adult. And nothing in the series ever states the triangle exists in-series.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



ArmyOfMidgets posted:

The latin dub went with Child>Adult>Ultra>Mega and I think that makes sense

Far as I remember, the Latin American dub went with Novato -> Campeon -> Ultra -> Mega, taking from the English dub (the first two are literally Rookie -> Champion), which I can't say I'm a big fan of but removing Perfect is a good thing because Perfect makes no sense for a non-final stage (admittedly, it was the final stage back when it came out, but still), even if Ultimate shares a similar meaning of something that cannot be surpassed (and indeed, Ultimate/Mega-level Digimon can only evolve into stronger Digimon of their own level).

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



If they add new forms, they'll be new Digimon made for the series, rather than something old and reused. Even there, I expect them to just add the Megas of the six that didn't get them.

Also, Kouji Wada's releasing a new album, re-fly. It has some old songs (like Butter-fly and Hirari) as well as two unknown songs. I fully expect one of these to be the opening of tri.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Elfgames posted:

That's just a Lady Lucimon

Not too far from the truth. Like Lucemon, Mastemon can control both light and darkness, as well as time and space (which isn't even that impressive by Digimon standards, Digimon has a really weird power curve)

She also looks like a female Lucemon Falldown Mode, maybe it was taken as a reference.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



"Parumon". I see that Digimon still has very consistent romanizations.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

That sounds so awesome


We're never getting that game aren't we?

Maybe a fan translation someday, there is a nearly complete one for Re: Digitize, after all, and the people behind it have said that they're moving to Decode after it. At least I keep hope there, since there's no way in hell it will be released officially outside of Japan, being a Digimon game and all.

Sad, since the Royal Knights have always been my favourite Digimon group and I'm so glad that one storyline is finally using them all. Savers almost did it, but having all thirteen is just amazing.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Maybe we'll get a fan translation someday, there's a nearly complete one of Re:Digitize that should be released "soon", as said in the translator's blog, and the same people said they were going to do Adventure after it (though now they seem to want to do Decode instead), so...we can always pray.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Adventure never shows any attraction between any Chosen Child, probably because they're children and all. Sora and Yamato being a couple comes out of nowhere in 02, but it's not like Taichi showed interest either. Apparently the PSP Adventure game attempts to fix this by showing Yamato having a crush on Sora even there, and Sora liking Taichi, while Taichi is completely oblivious to either one's feelings, because anime protagonist.

It's weird since I don't think any other series is quite that averse to romance. 02 had Daisuke having an obvious, if unreciprocated, crush on Hikari (and Miyako...saying once that Ken was hot, then they get married despite having nearly no interaction in-series, okay). Tamers had a rather long subplot of Takato liking Juri (and, considering the ending, it works out), Frontier had Junpei's also unreciprocated crush on Izumi, Savers...actually also had no romance whatsoever despite the older cast, and Xros Wars has Akari's crush on Taiki (which is reinforced in Hunters), Zenjirou's unreciprocated crush on Nene, Kiriha and Nene being a couple in all but name (even moreso in the manga where Kiriha outright states his love for Nene), and the hilarious antics of Yuu and Airu in Hunters.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Nahxela posted:

You forgot about Ivan's unreciprocated love for Yoshino, but you'll never hear me say that out loud.

Oh Yggdrasil, I actually did forget that. I really liked Ivan (and Savers in general, that series is so good), I'm honestly surprised I forgot.


Astro Nut posted:

The various series do have minor ship tease moments, like the angry couple scene in Savers, and Olegmon calling Nene Taiki's girlfriend, stuff like that. But as said, minor stuff, usually just for the occasional gag more than anything else, which can also just be read as kids being awkward because kids.



(what I'm trying to say is read the loving Xros Wars manga because it is great)

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Burkion posted:

*Highfive*

I don't care who likes Season 2, it's just an objectively poor sequel.

Season 1 is a fantastic kids adventure series with strangely tight writing that helps you ignore the fact that the animation budget was enough to buy pizza so the animators didn't starve to death. Season 1 has amazing writing in that all of the kids are equally important, and hell, even the Digimon have pretty distinct and unique personalities, though part of that comes from the dub I admit.

That's 14, eventually 16, main characters who all work fantastically and all get moments to shine in important ways.

Season 2 could very easily be re-written with minor alterations to be the Davis (and Ken in much smaller writing) show.

And that's just from the character POV, Oh Jesus does season 2 have other issues.

I'd much prefer it if Season 2 was ignored entirely, but I'm willing to give Tri the benefit of the doubt on this. Hopefully they can recapture what made season 1 work, like Tamers did in its own unique way, and get away from Season 2's nonsense.

I'll debate some points here. First, that season 1 made everyone equally important: it's blatantly false. Sure, it was far better than its sequel or Frontier, but the focus was still very much uneven: you could remove Mimi, Joe and Sora from the series and it'd change little. Taichi and Yamato are important because of obvious hero/rival reasons, Takeru and Hikari serve as constant deus ex machina (which is bad writing), and Koushirou oddly gets an incredible amount of spotlight despite not falling into either category, likely because Adventure tried to put some importance in the "Digi" part of the title and he was the only one who could do anything with it. Sadly, no other series apart from Tamers does the same, but that's another topic entirely.

Second, that the Digimon had personalities. Only Tailmon shows a proper, developed personality, and even there it fades quite a bit after she joins Hikari. The other seven show a single personality trait each, and could as well not have any personality and it'd be almost entirely the same.

I'll agree with the 02 being the Daisuke/Ken show point (although Frontier is FAR worse in that regard), but I need to point out that the others do get some cool moments, which only makes it even worse. Whenever Miyako, Iori and even Takeru get the spotlight they're really cool and interesting characters. It's even more impressive in the last case, he was insanely boring and stupid in Adventure, 02 shows him with severe anger issues after the poo poo he went through, which would've been a really cool thing to explore more (his fight with Ken as the Kaiser, as well as against BlackWarGreymon, are basically the only two points where this shows). Hikari still lacks a personality and now she isn't even deus ex machina, but that's a problem for Adventure in general, not just 02.

I just cannot agree with ignoring 02 though. Apart from my hatred of retcons, 02 is key to the tri plot as we know it: Digimon and humans coming together more and more, leading to the 02 epilogue (which was horrible, but having an actual lead to it should make it far better in hindsight). As well, it'd mean ignoring/deleting Ken, and he's a really, really good character that I fully hope gets some spotlight even if he's not a main anymore.


Omnicrom posted:

Well love of Xros Wars isn't universal, I know I hated it. I'm hoping Tri is a show with a less divisive appeal.

You clearly aren't part of the fandom. No series is less or more divisive, every series other than Adventure will be hated by a specific part of the fandom for not being Adventure.

About Xros Wars, it's good. Not amazing, definitely not the best of Sanjo's works (probably Kamen Rider W) or the best Digimon series (definitely Tamers), but I'd rank it as good enough, ignoring that Hunters ever happened. The Xros Wars manga, on the other hand, is really good, and a must-read if you ask me. Better than Next, not as good as V-Tamer but what is?

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Montegoraon posted:

Chimeramon? Sure, it was terrible. It was only one of the two precursors of the strongest digimon that had ever existed up to that point, who still has a very good claim to being one of the top badasses in the franchise.

In the Xros Wars manga, its final form ends up being defeated indirectly, because defeating it directly would be flat-out impossible. It's no joke that Millenniumon is still one of the strongest things in an universe of ridiculously broken monsters that could annihilate all of existance by sneezing.

I mean, Masaru could still probably punch Zeed, but the fact that I add "probably" is proof of how dangerous he is.

Omnicrom posted:

Back when 02 was new Wormmon's "official" Perfect was Dinobeemon. Note the quotation marks around "official" of course.

Well, it's as official as we're getting (short of tri showing it, which I seriously doubt). At least the 02 lines are consistant, unlike the Adventure lines that have gotten a few retcons (Gomamon's Mega went from Plesiomon to Vikemon and Tailmon's went from Holydramon to Ophanimon despite evolving on-screen)

Also Dinobeemon is cool and it should've appeared instead of the lame Paildramon. GranKuwagamon is badass as hell too, though I like Imperialdramon a lot too.

Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

Surprised at the compliants about the original digidestined losing their powers. At least on the latinamerican dub they made clear that they had to give their powers to fix the digiworld, not the crests.

Did it? I remember it saying that they were giving up their Crests, although I haven't watched the Latin American dub in ages, so you might be right. In any case, it's still a plothole, the powers were their feelings. Giving up that would make them empty shells, which they very clearly aren't.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Rodyle posted:

The thing I always liked as a kid about 2 is that Ken was my favorite villain because he wasn't just some monster, he was a human. The concept of a Digidestined who decided who, being a super intelligent member of the Chosen Ones decides, as a kid like that very well might, to become king of the loving monsters, was a lot better to me than "well he's a weird space monster who made everyone else you fought."


Of course the 2nd half hosed all that up by making it about all that bananas spore poo poo which also undermines any notion of a redemption arc since his mind was being hosed with.

The redemption arc still works because, Dark Spores fuckery or not, Ken still feels fully guilty of what he did. And god knows that if there's one plot that 02 did well it's Ken in his entirety. His BelialVamdemon-induced dream shows exactly just how much he hates himself (spoilering because this is a truly great part of a horrible fight otherwise): while everyone else has nice dreams, Ken's wish is to get tortured to death. This is an 11-year old whose greatest wish is to get hurt and killed, entirely out of guilt.

It should be noted that Ken wasn't the first human villain, C'mon and V-Tamer both did it first. The thing is that C'mon just has a bully, and V-Tamer has a guy who is absolutely evil 99% of the way and then suddenly we're meant to forgive him despite being an absolute poo poo because he was doing it all for his sister. I love V-Tamer but Neo should've just stayed a villain, his attempt at redemption came way too late and didn't work at all.

Yuu in Xros Wars follows more or less the same steps as Ken and is similarly likable. Hunters should've centered on him instead of demoting him to minor character despite telling us otherwise, because he still had a really good story to tell that he just never got to.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Onmi posted:

Like when Machinedramon had them tracked, Taichi made a mock attempt of fighting Koushiro, but only because he could tell someone was sneaking up on him and Koushiro pretty much got it immediately.

I always found it weird they called Yamato his best friend because really it's Koushiro. Yamato's probably the guy he's fought the most with and can relate to as an older brother, but Koushiro is the person who he genuinely enjoys being around and trusts explicitly.

It's also why Koushiro can, hilariously, sprint from his own apartment building to Taichi's in Children's War Game, and Taichi's reaction is just "Yo Koushiro" but that movie was the best...

Our War Game is actually a really good thing to point out in this specific argument. I was talking to a friend a few days ago and he pointed it out, Yamato (and Takeru even more) feels like an afterthought in that movie. He's there because Omegamon had to appear, but apart from that he has very little relevance to the movie. Instead, it's Koushiro who serves as Taichi's second during the entire film, hell, to a point he's even more important considering he's the one that realizes that poo poo's hit the fan and prepares everything to allow the Children (well, half of them) to fight Diablomon.

Koushiro gets a lot of relevance in Adventure as a whole, undoubtely because his computer knowledge comes in handy in a digital world (something I would've liked to see in more series, but only Adventure and Tamers show). It ends up making him memorable, and, at least between my friends, he's definitely a fan-favourite. His character depth is undeniable too, which only helps making him even more likable.

He's also super important in the Mugendramon arc and that's my favourite part of Adventure so that only made me like him even more. God that arc rocked. I want more of that.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Burkion posted:

So, can I ask why, in the dumb as hell epilogue, they didn't at least have TK and Kari get together? Unless that was subtly implied/stated else where, they were the other natural couple and God knows they had more grounding than Ken and Yolie ever did, yet unlike that one nothing came of it?

The 02 epilogue is dumb, that's literally the entire reason why anything happened in it. Ken/Miyako apparently only happened because their VAs were close friends, for hell's sake.

That said, the only episode that I remember was heavily Takeru/Hikari is the Cthulu...err, Dagomon episode, and the series tries really hard to ignore it ever happened after it happened, because 02 is a mess of plots that go nowhere and it wasted the best writer they had. Thankfully, Bandai did not, and so the beautiful, beautiful thing known as Digimon Tamers was born.

God bless Chiaki Konaka.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Onmi posted:

the villains were less personalities, more forces of nature, which was a good example of Season 3 as a whole, it was much more wild, much more savage.

Also going back to "loving 02 seriously?" something else that bugs me with the Digimentals, those are 'Elementals' as the name, but rather than give a reasonable explanation like "Hey you were responsible for saving and recreating the world so it formed elements based on your greatests traits that became the digimentals" They instead went with "This is an ancient form of evolution" to which I respond "That makes no loving sense, given what we know about the Crests and everything else. If the Digitmentals were a direct response to the Chosen Childrens actions-" OR loving HELL THE REASON THEY CAN'T EVOLVE THEIR DIGIMON BECAUSE THEY GAVE UP THEIR 'POWER' which still makes no sense, "-then it would be a neat lore building thing, instead it's just an excuse."

Ryo's games might have the answer to that. In Tag Tamers, Ryo and Ken have to find the Digimentals, which were destroyed by time, and apparently Gennai repairs them during the final battle by using the power of the Crests after they were released by the original eight.

At the end of D1 Tamers, Ryo is sent to the past with the Digimentals in hand, which creates an obvious plothole (they would be destroyed again in the present), but we can attribute that to gameplay and ignore it for story purpouses.

Anyways, the current Digimentals have the Crests in them because of that, they aren't the original forms they had in the past. V-Tamer (which is not canon to the anime) points out that the Digimentals originally have the forms of crystals, and indeed, the Digimental of Darkness (that only exists in Ryo's games, alongside the Digimentals of Pride, Desire and Tenacity), which was not repaired using the Crests, has the form of a crystal, as seen in its card.

This, however, still gives no explanation as of how the Digimental of Kindness exists. Or the Crest of Kindness. In fact, Kindness in general just makes no loving sense in the story.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Burkion posted:

YEP OF COURSE, MORE BULLSHIT TIE INS TO THE GAME TO EXPLAIN THE MAIN STORY

gently caress season 2

Well, it's not really explaining the main story. You can ignore it entirely if you want, just accept the Digimentals existed and had Digimon sealed in them because reasons. I don't think even Ryo's games explain why Armadimon and Hawkmon were there anyways (V-mon has an important role, which is thankfully never referenced so you can ignore it entirely).

It's only when you really start thinking about 02 that Ryo's games take some importance. You can easily watch it and never care. At best you'll be confused over who was that kid with Ken in the flashbacks and can just rationalize him as a Chosen Child we never see again, after all, there's a lot of them in the world now. Hell, you might recognise Ryo from Our War Game (he gets a cameo there!) and think it's just a cool continuity nod.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Like Re: Digitize was a spiritual sequel to the original Digimon World, this is one to the DS Digimon Story games, to the point that one of the characters from the DS games is confirmed to appear (Dawn/Dusk's Sayo, the female playable character in the latter, rival in the former). The whole get percentage scans of Digimon to make them is identical to the DS games, as is the DigiFarm.

It looks super interesting, too bad I don't understand Japanese at all nor have a Vita, else I'd definitely get it only to be disappointed because it's a Digimon game, so the gameplay will end up being grindy and boring.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Digimon World 3 is a weird game in that kid me loved it and actually beat it, and teenager and adult me finds it unbearably grindy, despite being good otherwise.

You know what game I liked before and I like now? Digital Card Battle. That game rocks, seriously, best Digimon game right there. It's the only Digimon game I can honestly call good without doubts. Not even Rumble Arena, which I also like, falls in that category.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



You must be the first person I ever see that disliked the Xros Wars manga.

I'll agree on the Nene fanservice being really creepy. Apart from that, characterizations are far stronger, "everyone gets an evolution" is hardly fanficcy and is actually what the anime should have done but didn't (in fact, not doing it was a regression, after Tamers and Savers did things correctly), the series are not one canon at all (there's connections, connections also seen in the Adventure PSP game, Hunters, the Ryo games and loving V-Tamer, far older than any of this). Nene loses agency, yes, but it's not like the anime treated her better, and the moments she does get are genuinely cool and deep, which admittedly also goes to her anime incarnation pre-becoming good.

Tailmon and Wizarmon's arc has hardly anything in common with what happens in Adventure, it's not reusing the Adventure arc at all. It does reuse the characters, and even hints that they are indeed the same as Adventure's, but everything that happens in the manga is entirely different, with Wizarmon getting a far different characterization and Tailmon managing to keep a personality the whole way through (something Adventure failed at and 02 ruined)

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



TFRazorsaw posted:

Imagine how busy Tamers' final arc if they crammed in Ultimate forms for Guardromon, Antylamon and Dobermon. There's no place for them.

Imagine how much better Frontier would be if they had shown Double/Hyper forms for everyone not named Takuya and Kouji. Or how improved 02 would be with the other Jogresses getting Megas as well and some more spotlight, instead of being the Daisuke Show ft. Ken.

Your argument is really silly. Akari and Zenjirou are main characters, far higher in importance than Hirokazu, Shuichon and especially one episode wonder Alice. Kotone too, even if she's manga-only, and she's basically taking Nene's place. The Super Evolutions should've been given more screentime (pagetime?), but they were hardly superfluous. They helped show that the characters were important, and actually got some hits in against Tactimon. EX6 gave a cool fight to Tactimon too, who was far better in the manga than in the anime.

The problem is that the Xros Wars manga goes really loving fast. It really should've gotten some more fights to show off the Xrosses/Evolutions a bit more, even X5, DX and the manga-exclusive X6 get used a grand total of once, with DX accomplishing absolutely nothing. While the insane pace helps it not drag on as much as the anime did at times, it does make it not use what it has as much as it could. Even the ending feels really rushed, and X7SM being the final form was disappointing with EX6 there, at least it could've been an EX6 SM, but oh well. I'm pretty sure it got cancelled considering how abruptly it ended and yet it managed to be stylish to the end, and that I can accept.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



dragon_pamcake posted:

A Shakkoumon mega would have been rad as hell.

Materials outside the show itself give Shakkoumon's Mega as Vikemon, which is badass but also unfitting. And considering now it is apparently Gomamon's Mega (replacing Plesiomon), I doubt we'll ever see it, even moreso if tri does show the Megas for the rest of the children, something I absolutely expect.

Kurui Reiten posted:

Having recently watched Our War Game and The Revenge of Diaboromon in Japanese, it's amazing just how built up Omnimon and his offshoots have become. Omnimon murders literal thousands of Megas at a time, and then gets rocked by a single Armageddomon in the real world. To the point where his loving arms drop off. Then Imperialdramon gets given Omnimon's power as a sword, becomes Swole Paladin Mode, and one shots him.

It's kind of hilarious. I guess you could say, oh, Omnimon wasn't powered by the will of children across the world the second time, but still. Just funny to me somehow.

The Diablomon clones seemed to have no defense whatsoever and were very easily destroyed, and Armagemon's profile outright states that "Diablomon had the ability to make many copies of itself, but they were characterized by having lesser abilities than the original possessed". The real one was heavily slowed down by a bunch of emails being sent at once, letting Omegamon get an easy kill. Meanwhile Armagemon was able to fight at full power and is by itself a far stronger Digimon than Diablomon.

Revenge of Diablomon basically follows the same pattern as Our War Game, previously unbeatable Digimon lose -> new fusion -> easy as hell win. This time it's Imperialdramon PM taking over Omegamon. About the arms falling...well, nothing wrong with an Evangelion reference, right?

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



zimbomonkey posted:

Thank you for clearing up a question I've had for years now. Now a new one: do we actually have a release date on tri yet? I thought it was supposed to be sometime this month, but I can't figure out where I got that from.

I have no idea where you got that from either, but it's not right, it starts next month, though we don't have a specific day yet.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



zimbomonkey posted:

Is that ever coming out in the US? Or is that a confirmed no

It's not confirmed, but considering no Digimon game has actually left Japan in years, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



I wonder about that April date though. I mean, April is in three days and we still don't have an actual release date. I guess it's nothing to be scared about, but I do wonder if it won't get pushed back.

Also four anime I watched just ended so I could totally use this starting. C'mon Toei, start it this week, it'll be fun.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



I'm sorry for everyone who didn't watch Savers. It is really, really good.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



nine-gear crow posted:

I love learning these behind the scenes and "what could have been" details about these various series. Though I think my favorite one was how Impmon was originally going to be Takato's partner for Tamers but it was personally vetoed by Konaka in favor of Guilmon because he wanted the central Digimon of the show to be an innocent tabula rasa as opposed to a creature with the kind of baggage Impmon brings with him just by his design and nature.

But goddamn if it hasn't left me wondering how a Takato/Impmon Tamers series would have played out ever since.

First time I hear that one. The only Tamers what-could-have-been thing I knew was that Impmon/Beelzebumon was meant to be the big bad of the series, before being changed to an antagonist that gets to redeem himself.

Honestly Digimon history would've probably changed a bit if Beelzebumon did get to be evil forever. We probably wouldn't have Baalmon/Beelzebumon in Xros Wars.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



ConanThe3rd posted:

Savers is G Gundam with Digimon minus Imagawa

I'd kill to have Imagawa make a Digimon series. Bring on that hot-blooded awesomeness, I'm ready.

Demicol posted:

Does nobody like Digimon Frontier

Digimon Frontier was awful.

The REAL Goobusters posted:

So whats the deal with this show. When is it actually premiering.

It's what we all wish we knew. It's not April, that's for sure, Wikipedia now lists "Spring 2015".

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Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



readingatwork posted:

I think Cthulhu is a better comparison. Something truly terrifying hiding in the shadows that you're only ever able to see bits and pieces of.

Re: Frontier: it was an interesting idea but poorly executed. Also the main character could have been completely written out with minimal effort which is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Uhh, what? Did you even watch Frontier? Write off Takuya and Kouji and you don't have a series anymore. You can write off the other four and have no changes whatsoever, the series is horribly main/rival-focused, far more than any Digimon series before, to the point of making everyone else powerless to feed them.

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