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Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



So hey, I was told this was worth giving it its own thread, so here we are. A Digimon general.

The biggest news is that we have the announcement of Digimon Adventure tri., the new anime series and the sequel to Digimon Adventure.



So far, details on the plot are sketchy at best, and all we know is that it takes place when Taichi is seventeen and will air in the "Spring". The confirmed staff thus far are:

Character Design: Atsuya Yuki
Series Composition: Yuuko Kakihara
Director: Keitaro Motonaga

The other stuff we have coming down the docket include "Digimon Story: The Cyber Sleuth" for the Vita. So far, no US release has been confirmed, and judging by the recent track record, it probably won't be. It's a sequel to the Digimon Story (better known as "Digimon World DS" in the west) series, though it uses the character designer and even characters from the recent "Digimon World Re:Digitize" games.

Here's the latest trailer. Summary from the Digimon wiki:

quote:

The Protagonist gets curious after hearing rumors of hackers in the streets, and one day receives a device named "Digimon Capture" from someone he/she met in an online chat room, then travels to the lowest layer of Cyberspace to gauge the rumor. But because of a sudden malfunction in the system, part of his/her mental data is corrupted, resulting in his/her body becoming a half-digitized Data Body. The Protagonist then awakens with the special ability Connect Jump, which allows he/she to travel between the Real World and Cyberspace EDEN through terminals.

Aside form that, "Digimon Allstar Rumble" was released recently in the west. It's sort of a Power Stone/Mascot fighter hybrid including characters from "Adventure", "Tamers", and "Xros Wars", though the setting is completely original. General consensus is that it isn't very good. The second season of the dub of Xros Wars, "Digimon Fusion", is also on the docket, and will likely cover the "Death Generals" episodes of the anime.

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Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



also, each week, the Digimon Reference Book updates with a new profile. I'll post the translations people do here for those who are interested. Here's the last three (keep in mind there's a margin of error):



quote:

SaviorHuckmon

After going through many bouts of bloodshed on its long journey of continuously encountering and parting with Digimon, it has evolved into this form. It often tries to intervene in the military disputes that take place incessantly in the Digital World, seeking ceasefires, and it comes to the rescue of any nearby Digimon that are wounded. Even though the results aren't always successful, the tears SaviorHuckmon shed as the miserable scene plays out only makes it stronger, and it then becomes more eager than ever to help out the next Digimon that gets injured. It has covered itself with aggressively-designed blades from head to foot, with both of its legs taking on the form of blades in order for it to walk on 2 feet, and a crimson blade forming on both of its hands and tail. The crystal on its chest is one that proves its power has been refined and that it hasn't missed an effort in doing so. Its special attacks are "Rage Strayed", wherein it jumps and stabs the blades on its feet into the enemy with the posture of its kick, and "Meteor Flame", wherein it emits a rapid-fire of flame bullets from its mouth in the manner of a machine gun, completely burning down the enemy. Its "Trident Saber", wherein it slashes the enemy with the three red blades both its hands and tail are equipped with, mercilessly cuts apart even those enemies that are wearing Chrome Digizoid armor.



quote:

Jesmon

When the crystal in Savior Hackmon's chest began to shine, it surpassed perfection and assumed its ultimate form – a Holy Knight Digimon who has earned the title of "Royal Knight", the highest rank of Network Security. It is endowed with the ability to sense the unusual phenomena and signs of chaos that occur all over the Digital World, and is the first of any of the Royal Knights to come running. It is said that rather than acting independently, it plans coordinated responses with nearby Digimon and the Sistermons. Its high aptitude for teamwork, even compared to other members of the Royal Knights, comes from its ability to trust in others and avoid becoming overconfident in its own abilities. By studying its teacher Gankoomon’s “Hinukamuy,” Jesmon was able to create 3 similar beings through its own training: “Atho”, “René”, and “Por”. They move on Jesmon’s command but can also operate freely; in addition, they boast the ability to perform many other impressive feats, such as directly attacking enemies, covering for Jesmon, or protecting other Digimon. Jesmon’s Special Moves are using high-speed movement to cut opponents to pieces in an instant with the blades on its arms (Tekken Seibai) and countering opposing attacks from all directions with the 9 blades wielded by “Atho”, “René”, “Por”, and itself (Schwertgeist). Its ability “Aus Generics” allows it to temporarily rewrite its own data and surpass the laws of physics, meaning Jesmon's physical capabilities are not limited by the laws of the Digital World - as such, all enemies will fall before it without even leaving a scratch.



quote:

Boogiemon

A weird Demon Man Digimon. A lot of tattoos representing wicked spells are embedded in its body, but it seems that it can only use a certain number of them for each incantation. When it comes to fighting in battle, this coward doesn't fully reveal itself, but instead it always ambushes enemies in the darkness by attacking them suddenly. Its special attack is "Death Clash", wherein it stabs the enemy with the three-pronged spear it holds in its right hand.

SaviorHackmon and Boogiemon's profiles translations are credit to Wildermon of the With the Will forums. Jesmon comes from Wikimon.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



It's not an in-universe sequel, I don't think. If anything, it's probably a sequel to Re:Digitize due to the presence of an actual character from that game.

It's a sequel in that it uses the same gameplay mechanics.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



the more outright digimon rpgs are especially grind heavy when you think about it. DW2, DW3, and the Story/World DS games are especially bad at it in different ways.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



02 was the most successful digimon series. I profoundly doubt it.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I significantly doubt it'll be an interquel, given Taichi is explicitly older than he was in 02

EDIT - oh wait, I completely misread you. sorry.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Dec 27, 2014

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



SSNeoman posted:

Really? Why? It was so boring after Ken's arc. And I say that as someone who likes MaloMyotismon's design.

I dunno man. But it got the best ratings, the most tie in merchandise, made the most money.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

Holy Hell, we have a new Royal Knight?

we have all thirteen now.

In order of introduction:

Omegamon
Magnamon
Dukemon
LordKnightmon
Dynasmon
UlforceV-dramon
Alphamon
Craniummon
Sleipmon
Examon
Duftmon
Gankoomon
Jesmon

likewise they finished up the Olympus Twelve. There are no more extant digimon groups to reveal other than the particulars of the Crack Team.

quote:

Like, you can tell that its the series where they trying to more deliberately tap in the various ranges of lore that Digimon had, beyond piecemeal or spontaneously created chunks, but you can also feel a lack of a full committal on stuff. The Demon Lords are established, and even one of them shown to be a massive threat, but none of the others appear. The Royal Knights turn up a more complete group, and in the actual function of the Royal Knights, but there's notable absences among the group. And of course, Yggdrasil, god of the digital world, who... apparently isn't actually that important to running the place in the end (though admittedly I think only the Next manga has actually tried to carry some weight with that).

I want to comment on this. The Royal Knights weren't fully formed when Savers was ending, and the only absence of a member already introduced was Alphamon, and his silhouette was in the opening. They obviously wanted to do more with the Knights, but considering the final arc is more than a bit rushed due to the scheduling and budget allotted a weekly animated series by Toei, they obviously had to cut that stuff short.

The Demon Lords however... man, I couldn't really disagree more. Look at every digimon series up until that point (before Xros Wars muddled that all up by having Lucemon be an underling); every time one of the Demon Lords appears in animation, they're a force unto themselves. Even if Demon ended up being wasted as a character, he showed up and made an impact. Likewise, Lucemon and Beelzebumon were huge players in their respective series.

When Savers was airing, there was a clear idea that even just one of the Demon Lords showing up in series had to be a big deal.

The Demon Lords getting mentioned as part of Belphemon's back story is just that; context to explain where he came from. We didn't need more of them on account it'd be distracting from Belphemon's importance as an enemy and the weight of Kurata's plans.

As for Yggdrasil, I don't know what you mean. It was never destroyed or left its job fully, it just decided it was wrong and decided to take a more passive role in the fate of the Digital World. There's being the server that maintains the DW, and there's setting oneself up as a god and ordering around your own ultra powerful army to wipe out other civilizations.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Dec 28, 2014

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Masaru punches Yggdrasil.

They end up in a white void.

Yggdrasil goes "well, you beat me. Guess there's something to you humans after all. Guess I'll see what happens."

More or less.

quote:

Man, now I want a SMT-esque story with a conflict between the Royal Knights and the Seven Great Demon Lords, with the Olympus Twelve as the neutral party that could tip the balance of power, if they could be courted.

It's not the Demon Lords, but Bandai's own storyline has been basically talking about a clash between the digital world the Olympus 12 rule over (Illiad, controlled by a separate computer named Homeros), and ours, so there's potential there.

It probably won't really be TOLD in any capacity outside of website blurbs, iOS games, and profiles, but there's enough interesting ideas there.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I figured this was worth double posting; a run down of the various powers-that-be in the digital world and how they stack up in regards to one another. I originally wrote it for my Tumblr and updated it with the new information that's come out. This only covers the mythology of the Digital World as covered in Bandai’s Digimon profiles; all of the various Digimon series deal with this differently and have their own backstory for the Digital World and its various hierarchy.

So, with that in mind, let’s begin:

Deities

The creator of the Digital World is "God"; naturally, he is based on the God of the Abrahamic religions. “God” is the creator of the Digital World, and dwells at the center of the Digital World, or “Kernel”. He is said to be a being of “infinite wisdom” and “infinite love.” It is suspected that "God" might, in fact, be a human being.

However, “God” is not the only higher power in the Digital World. There is also Yggdrasil, the “host computer” of the Digital World. This is just speculation, but if “God” is the creator, “Yggdrasil” is the “server”, and maintains the Digital World’s structure, stability, and security. Of the two, Yggdrasil is prone to the most action, acting through its various agents and even taking physical form in various incarnations. Yggdrasil is based on the World Tree of Norse Mythology, which supported the world itself. There is also another host computer that serves Yggdrasil in another Digital World called Homeros; how this exactly works, but by all intents and purposes, the Digital Worlds are linked, it's just Homeros and Iliad exist on a different "server".

Thirdly, there is Huanglongmon. Though the Digimon is obscenely powerful and was once called the “ruler” of the Digital World, Huanlongmon is more a “physical god” in contrast to the comparatively more abstract “God” and Yggdrasil. Huanglongmon ruled the Digital World of the past, but was deposed by a “certain Angel digimon” and sealed beneath the Earth. Huanglongmon is a being that described as “good as well as evil”, and exists as a balance of light and darkness. Its body is covered by Huanglong Ore, which is the basis for the metal “Chrondigizoit”. Huanglongmon is based on the fifth beast of the Chinese Sì Xiàng, as well as the Yellow Emperor, Huangdi, of China.

Higher Powers

"God", Yggdrasil, and Huanlongmon have several groups associated with them.

The Three Great Angels protect the Kernel in which “God” dwells, and are thus the closest beings to him. They are Seraphimon, Ofanimon, and Cherubimon. Furthermore, other Angel Digimon are close to “God”, and serve to protect him. However, being in such proximity to “God” gives the Angel Digimon equal potential to fall to wickedness, and indeed, the Three Great Angels each have a corrupted form: For Seraphimon, the Demon Lord Demon; Ofanimon the Demon Lord Lilithmon, or the justice-minded Ofanimon Falldown Mode; and for Cherubimon the dark, corrupted form that is merely known as Cherubimon (Virus).

Other Angel Digimon have fallen as well. Lucemon is the most notable case, as it descended upon the Digital World and ended Huanglongmon’s rule before he too was deposed (more on that later). There is also Bagramon, who rebelled due to disgust with “God’s” sense of justice, and though he would be absolved of its crimes if he repented, Bagramon refuses and seeks to replace “God’s Justice” with its own.

Yggdrasil, meanwhile, is associated with the Royal Knights, who are by far the most powerful beings in the Digital World. Their ranks include Alphamon, Omegamon, Magnamon, Dynasmon, LordKnightmon, Craniummon, Sleipmon, UlforceV-dramon, Duftmon, Dukemon, Examon, Gankoomon, and Jesmon. Alphamon is generally considered the leader, but is often absent. The Royal Knights themselves only appear in times of great crisis, and in general, act in a manner that is in accordance with their belief in right and wrong. Oftentimes, they also follow the will of Yggdrasil, who is motivated by cold logic. One of the exceptions to this is Gankoomon, who acts with his own discretion and has gathered many friends in his travels in the southwest frontier of the Digital World. Likewise, Jesmon, who evolved from Gankoomon's pupil Hackmon, shows much more willingness to fight and coordinate with others, and intervenes whenever danger arises.

As for the group’s origins, the Royal Knights were founded by Imperialdramon Paladin Mode. His reasons for doing so are unknown, and he himself is not considered a member. In any case, Imperialdramon Paladin Mode seems to no longer exist in the Digital World.

Now we come to the Four Holy Beasts, who protect the North, South, West, and East of the Digital World. Their names are Xuanwumon, the turtle, Zhuqiaomon, the red phoenix, Qinglongmon, the blue dragon, and Baihumon, the white tiger. Though they lost their rule of the Digital World when Huanglongmon was sealed within the earth, they retain their guardianship of the cardinal directions and continue to protect them. Their servants are the Twelve Deva, which each Holy Beast lording over three: Khumbiramon, Vajramon, and Vikararamon for Xuanwumon; Indaramon, Pajramon, and Sandiramon for Zhuqiaomon; Andiramon, Majiramon, and Mihiramon for Qinglongmon; and Makuramon, Caturamon, and Sinduramon for Baihumon.

Other Powers

The servants of the three so-called gods are not the only powerful forces in the Digital World. There are others that have shaped the history and affect the balance of power of this world as well.

Though they are long since dead, the Ten Warriors played a critical role in the Digital World’s history. When Lucemon descended, AncientGreymon, AncientGarurumon, AncientIrismon, AncientBeetmon, AncientMegatheriumon, AncientSphinxmon, AncientWisemon, AncientMermaimon, AncientVolcamon, and AncientTroiamon all rose to oppose him. Ultimately, Lucemon was sealed away, and though the Ten Warriors lost their lives, they passed their data on to the various digimon archetypes they represented. Additionally, what was left of their data became the Legendary Spirits that can be used to evolve to Hybrid Digimon.

Then there are the Olympus Twelve. Rivaling the Royal Knights in power, the Olympus Twelve are not bound to any master, though they exist in the Digital World of Iliad and are overseen by Homeros. Like the Royal Knights, they only act in matters of great import, but maintain a neutral standpoint in doing so. However, they are considered defenders of the Digital World all the same. Their leader is Jupitermon, and their ranks include Apollomon, Dianamon, Minervamon (and her alter ego Mervamon), Marsmon, Mercurymon, Neptunemon, Vulcanusmon, Venusmon, Ceresmon, Bacchusmon, and Junomon. Strongly associated with the group are Plutomon, an enigmatic Digimon who hunts and executes criminals, and Titamon, a digimon who was born from the data of those slain in the Olympus Twelve’s rise to power and who has an undying hatred of the group.

Finally, there are the Four Great Dragons. Their purpose is unknown, but their ranks include Goddramon, Holydramon, Qinglongmon (I guess he moonlights), and the “problem child” Megidramon. Again, their purpose is unknown, but considering their ranks include Megidramon, odds are their motivation is somewhat complex. We do know that they are in charge of issuing a test known as the "Trial of the Four Great Dragons", which only Dragon Digimon can undertake.

Demonic Forces

I spoke earlier that Angel Digimon have great potential to “fall”; no group represents this fact more than the Seven Great Demon Lords, who are by far the most dangerous enemies of “good” in the Digimon pantheon. Though they identify as a group, the Demon Lords rarely act together, and oftentimes pursue their own goals. They are strongly associated with the Dark Area, a land whose very essence they are tied to, and when wicked digimon die, their data is sent to the Dark Area, where they in turn become part of the “flesh and blood” of the Demon Lords.

Each of the Demon Lords represents one of the Seven Deadly Sins and bears a crest with the symbol of said sin as well as “Purgatory Level” that corresponds to their relative threat level, with the lowest number corresponding to the one requiring the highest number of caution:

Purgatory Level 7 - Lilithmon, who represents Lust and was once an Ofanimon.
Purgatory Level 6 - Beelzebumon, who represents Gluttony.
Purgatory Level 5 - Barbamon, who represents Greed.
Purgatory Level 4 - Belphemon, who represents Sloth.
Purgatory Level 3 - Leviamon, who represents Envy and is the largest and most physically powerful of the Demon Lords.
Purgatory Level 2 - Demon, who represents Wrath and was once a Seraphimon.
Purgatory Level 1 - Lucemon Falldown Mode, who represents Pride and is the same Lucemon deposed by the Ten Warriors.

Each of the Demon Lords is a force unto themselves, but of all of them, Lucemon is considered the most dangerous. In him lies the potential to become the apocalyptic dragon, Lucemon Satan Mode, who brandishes the power of all seven sins.

Also of note is the enigmatic Ogudomon, a powerful Super Demon Lord who seems to be born from a fusion of all seven Demon Lords. Ogudomon is a being that embodies all of the world’s sins, yet supposedly has the power to “atone” for them as well. Supposedly, this makes anyone with malice in their hearts unable to successfully attack it.

There are other Digimon that are classified as Demon Lords, but are not included in their ranks. These Digimon include BelialVamdemon, the true form of the dark aristocrat Vamdemon, Murmukusmon, the ruling “Count” of the “Nightmare Soldiers”, Deathmon, the neutral fallen Angel Digimon , and the aforementioned Bagramon. Save for Bagramon, who commands his own army, and Deathmon, it is unknown if they are servants or allies of the Seven Great Demon Lords.

Other Groups and Figures

There are other groups and individuals of note, but it would seem remiss to consider some of them part of the “Pantheon”. However, they are noteworthy enough to mention.

The Royal Base is an aerial covert fortress that consists of an army of bee-like Digimon, the most powerful of which is TigerVespamon.

The enigmatic Crack Team specializes in augmenting and creating machine or cybernetic digimon as well as weapons. Their first success was Mugendramon, which was created using parts of different cyborg digimon, and from there they developed Chaosdramon. Other Digimon associated with the Crack Team are Megadramon, MetalSeadramon, MetalTyrannomon, and Giga Seadramon.

The Big Death Stars consist of Dorbickmon, NeoVamdemon, Zamielmon, Olegmon, Gravimon, and Splashmon. It is unknown what their goals are, but each one bears their own symbol and commands a themed army of their own. Given they are roughly analogous to the Death Generals of the Xros Wars anime, it's possible they are Bagramon's servants.

Among Digimon, Anubimon apparently stands alone, but he serves an important role. It is Anubimon who decides whether a Digimon may be reborn at the end of its lifespan, and those he judges as evil are consigned to the Dark Area.

In the parallel Digital World of Witchelny, where the inhabitants practice the advanced programming language known as “sorcery”, MedievalDukemon exists as one of the Vortex Knights, a group who uses wind sorcery. MedievalDukemon is their only known member.

Apocalymon is a digimon born from the data of those whose data was lost in the process of evolving. True to its name, it has the power to bring about the end of the Digital World.

Similarly, there is Millenniumon, a digimon born from the fusion of a Kimeramon and a Mugendramon. Boasting destructive power over time and space, it would eventually be reborn as Moon=Millenniumon and ZeedMillenniumon.

The Bancho Digimon are a group of five who have each earned their respective titles and are known for a particularly strong force of will. They all wear garb similar to that worn by archetypal delinquents in Japan. Their number consists of BanchoLeomon, BanchoLilymon, BanchoMamemon, BanchoStingmon, and BanchoGolemon.

There are also the Three Musketeers, but any knowledge of them is vague. All we know is that there are three of them and they are associated with firearms. Their number includes MagnaKidmon (and thus his alter ego AvengeKidmon), BelleStarrmon, a female Demon Man Digimon who resembles Beelzebumon, and Gundramon.

Finally, we come to two beings who represent both regeneration and destruction. The first is Susanoomon, a being foretold in prophecy who would descend upon the network when it reaches a state of chaos, delete the old system, and create a new one. The second is Chaosmon, a code name for a digimon with an impossible existence: two digimon who jogressed and did not fuse fully into one being. A “bug”, Chaosmon is a danger to the stability of the Digital World and is often forcibly deleted. However, it has the potential to manifest as UltimateChaosmon, whose very nature causes lower level digimon to be deleted when close to it.

I hope you found this informative!

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Dec 28, 2014

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I don't but I could maybe make one? When I'm not just editing something I already wrote and my internet is cooperating I mean

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



You guys have to realize, the anime isn't the core of the franchise in Japan like it is here. Yeah, it's a big part, but in Japan, at least until tri, this was all in pursuit of selling electronic pets and the card game that carry across iterations of the franchise. Fiction may have deviated, but the basis for the lore was to create a backstory for those things; while the anime had to refresh itself by necessity past Adventure, the profiles for everything stayed consistent because it was supposed to run together.

it's like the Zoids Battle Story stuff; while the universe and setting of the anime changed, the story they were telling with the toys continued on. It's just a different facet of the franchise.

And as for it not mattering to anything, both V-Tamer 01 and Next stayed very close to the background established by Bandai as they existed at the time. Savers stayed mostly in those guidelines too, with some liberties.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Uhhhh, no. The thing about Adventure only being 13 episodes originally is complete fiction. It was always a year long series.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I don't blame you considering fairly prominent people like JesuOtaku still perpetuate that myth.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



It's just kind of dull. It's monster of the week stuff till almost the very end and doesn't have much of an overarching plot.

But considering they literally made it solely to fill the time between the end of XW proper and the premiere of Saint Seiya Omega, I cut it a little slack. Yes, it's very run of the mill, thoroughly unambitious, and largely goes nowhere, but it was never supposed to.

That doesn't mean I hold it in very high esteem or like it that much. I just have no anger towards it.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Uh, several digimon VAs came back for the crossover. They just couldn't get too many of them.

again, this series was literally made to fill a couple of months between different shows.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Blaze Dragon posted:

None of the Digimon VAs came back for the crossover proper. Masaru's Agumon was not voiced during the crossover episode, only during its previous appearance. Taichi's Agumon, as well as Gomamon and Tentomon only got their voices because their VAs were already working in Hunters (Shoutmon, Takuya, Psychemon/Dorulumon, respectively), and in fact this is likely the only reason why the last two got to appear at all, alongside Joe (whose VA might be the most important Digimon has ever had, considering how he appeared in every single series, being Damemon in Hunters, as well as both Joe and Grani (who got more lines than Damemon in the entire series) in the crossover) and Chakmon (whose VA is the same as Gumdramon's). V-mon's VA was also back...in a previous episode, as a different character.

It made the episode very weird to watch, because none of the calls you'd expect to be there were. The only attack calls we got were WarGreymon's Gaia Force and Aldamon's Brahma Shil, the former because his VA was already in the series as said, and the latter because it would've been overboard to not even get the human VAs (which they did with Yamato and Mimi anyways...the latter even weirder since AiM said she was going to appear, then...didn't...). As a matter of fact, Omegamon and Susanoomon don't get any attack calls at all, making the whole thing even weirder.

so... "aside from these guys that came back", they didn't get anyone back.

There have been lots of cases where certain attacks didn't get called out in the shows these characters came from.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Rodyle posted:

I will import the Japanese BDs in a heartbeat if Toei has the gall to just make the villain Myotismon again in Tri.

God no. Let Vamdemon/Myotismon just die already.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



quote:

Murata is one of my favorite villains in the franchise.

Kurata.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Man, Requiem is my favorite part of the original Digimon OST. I definitely prefer that over what the dub movie did with Omegamon's introduction.

Fun fact: They used that track during Takuya's evolution into Ardhamon in Frontier, where he fought BlackSeraphimon. It's just as epic there too.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Angemon isn't stronger than the other digimon in Adventure. His attacks are just doubly effective against evil digimon. This is explained in 02 when Okuwamon wrecks him.

People who point out how he killed Piemon ignore the fact that MetalGarurumon and WarGreymon contributed just as much to taking him down.

As for Seraphimon, every single one of his fictional appearances involves him getting his poo poo wrecked

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



ArmyOfMidgets posted:

Did they? Did they really? Cuz all I remember is them getting played for chumps in ten seconds and everyone getting turned into keychains one by one until MagnaAngemon popped up to wreck poo poo.

It's at the end of the episode. He's managing to keep himself from being sucked into the Heaven's Gate, but then WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon use Grey Force and Garuru Tomahawk to blast him into it.

all HolyAngemon did was knock him down and run off with the keychains before that

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014





Mastemon, a jogress evolution of Angewomon and LadyDevimon, premiering in Cyber Sleuth.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I loathe the Xros Wars manga.

From Nene losing even more agency than she did in the anime, to the really creepy fan service with Shademon Nene, to the really fanficcy stuff ("All the series are one canon!" "Everyone gets a super evolution!" Millenniumon is in this!"), to the blatant regurgitating of Tailmon and Wizarmon's story arc in a shallow, vapid manner, I just can't get into it. The only good parts of it for me are Bagramon's character and the backstory for Taiki.

And no, this isn't in comparison to the anime. The XW manga and anime both have their share of problems and I judge both equally.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Omnicrom posted:

I don't really see it as fanficcy honestly. I mean I sort of see where you're coming from, but I think the Xros manga is actually perfectly workable even if you hadn't seen a previous season. They do indeed make a lot of references, but the manga doesn't necessarily expect or rely on you getting them all. You could read it as a self-contained story if you didn't know otherwise, and I think that's the mark of a good anniversary style series.

I agree completely that Nene wasn't used well in the manga, but I'll also say that sadly I think she's still treated better there than in the anime. Nene in the anime was pretty useless and superfluous, it's sad to say but Nene in the manga was a much more direct driver of the plot even if she spent the second half somewhere between lackey and a hostage.

I sort of wish that we had a good anime of the Xros Wars manga, there's a lot of ideas and characters in there that I'd love more time to see fleshed out.

I would take "just sort of there and doesn't get to do much" over "body gets taken over by someone else entirely so she can get led around half naked". Both suck but one isn't actively offensive.

quote:

the series are not one canon at all (there's connections, connections also seen in the Adventure PSP game, Hunters, the Ryo games and loving V-Tamer, far older than any of this).

Those things all had the context of people coming from other dimensions.

The XW manga acts like they all happened in the same history. Which doesn't work at allllll.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Anyway, in regards to the Super Evolutions, they're fanficcy because they just happen. They don't really accomplish anything other than giving us Shoutmon EX6, who is completely superfluous because they work Superior Mode in anyway. ShootingStarmon gets a bit by helping them finish Tactimon but that doesn't really justify the rest of it.

They also looked really bad until Bandai actually redesigned a bit. But in terms of pacing they're crammed in in a way that keeps any of them from getting focus. I like it when everyone gets a chance to evolve their partners, but it should happen when it's done for more reasons than "HEY WOULDN'T IT BE COOL IF"

Imagine how busy Tamers' final arc if they crammed in Ultimate forms for Guardromon, Antylamon and Dobermon. There's no place for them.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Yorkshire Tea posted:

Yeah, I mean I can understand why they chose those Mega forms, they're just so visually bland. Like if you want Metal Greymon to go melee, fine, just give him a pair of cyborg arms and tail spikes or something.

Also, if there's a Mega form for MagnaAngemon, wouldn't he just trivialise everything and job out all the villains? As I recall MagnaAngemon just straight up chumps a Mega in the first series.

People keep saying that but it's far, far from true.

HolyAngemon doesn't "chump" Piemon at all. Here's how the scene breaks down:















HolyAngemon opens the gate, but all it does is suck up Piemon's minions. It's not until MetalGarurumon and WarGreymon blast him into Heaven's Gate that he's defeated. Angemon's line has what is effectively a status buff against evil digimon like Piemon, so it deleted him. But it didn't even come CLOSE to him being able to do it himself.

Yeah. he knocked Piemon off of something earlier on to get the keychains everyone had been turned into back, but earlier in this same battle, Garudamon blasts him off his feet with Shadow Wing. Are you going to say she "chumped a Mega" too?

Patamon's evolutions are exceptionally strong for what they are, don't get me wrong, but they are far, FAR from as OP as everyone says they are.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



1) Angemon has, as I said, a +1 status effect against evil digimon. He's like WarGreymon with dragon digimon.

2) Takeru and his partner were PROPHESIED to defeat Devimon

3) Angemon cast his own hitpoints into that attack, in addition to getting power from the digivices of the six OTHER kids, resulting in his own death

4) I admitted that the line is an exceptional, but NOT overpowered one

so even THAT is an extraordinarily special circumstance. Look at when he fought Okuwamon in 02; he has nowhere NEAR as much success against a giant bug as he did against guys like Vamdemon and Phantomon, which suffer extra from his special effect (and all he could do was temporarily injure the former).

Angemon is special without saying he's the strongest, best digimon ever. He's an example of how to portray a character with unique qualities without making them a broken mess who outshines everyone else completely.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



quote:

Angemon was always held as strong as an Ultimate, though, in the show. He was the ONLY one who could hurt Myotismon one on one, and his attack even vaporized another Ultimate level Digimon that barely grazed him in the process.

Then combine that with the amount of abuse Angemon could take compared to other Champions, he was clearly a stand out.


MagnaAngemon was also clearly more powerful than Piedmon because of the sword clash. Earlier we saw Piedmon very easily overpower just about all of the other Digimon, including Angewomon, but MagnaAngemon easily destroyed his attacks and physically threw him to the side. It's not a stretch to imagine MangaAngemon could have kicked Piedmon into the hole if season 1 wasn't more about teamwork than any other season.

Even Season 2 acknowledged that MagnaAngemon was really goddamn strong- the only time he shows up and does anything, he is fighting Black War Greymon, and is WINNING against him until BWG cheats and destroys his power source. Later on we see Black War Greymon fight regular War Greymon and Imperialdramon Fighter Mode, and that just turns out to be a draw.Otherwise he does nothing if he shows up- even against Malo Mytoismon, the dude did NOTHING while everyone else threw an attack out, because he would have defeated MaloMyotismon on his own.

Except... Vamdemon and Phantomon are both evil and dark attributed digimon. It's STATED that his attacks are especially effective against them. If he was as strong as an Ultimate/Perfect, he would have been able to stand up to Oukuwamon, and what happened there?

He got his face shoved in after ONE attack.

As for BlackWarGreymon, that is true, and that's where the evolution line being "above average" comes in. But BWG was only as strong as WarGreymon, and we can never know how that fight would have ended because we never saw the final result of it. And WarGreymon was consistently shown to be individually weaker than Piemon. In any case, all HolyAngemon did was hit Piemon ONCE - a feat we saw Garudamon do in the same episode - and open the gate. While the Vilemon were being sucked in, Piemon was not being affected at all.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



People who talk about how Frontier killed the franchise amuse me, considering all it did was continue a trend that Tamers already started.

Yes, the western fan favorite was the beginning of the end. All Frontier did was fail to recapture the audience Tamers had already thoroughly alienated.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Oxygen Deficiency posted:

I remember in one of the early episodes of the Tamers dub, after Takato got his signature goggles, one of his friends calls him "Yolei" and for the longest time i was expecting the Adventure kids to show up.

It'd be interesting to know what they say in the original for that scene.

Also wasn't the teacher voiced by the same va as Kari? I was convinced they were the same person.

He just makes a comment about the goggles. Nearly all of the references to Adventure are entirely the invention of the dub. The most the original version includes is Shaochung switching the channel on a TV as Wormmon's image song is heard. Konaka did confirm that Adventure/02 ARE fictional in Tamers' universe, however.

Hikari having the same VA as a teacher is just a metatextual joke. Asanuma-sensei is also a pretty selfish person and a bad teacher, so it wouldn't make much sense for her and Hikari to be the same person.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



The point is though how much of it was Frontier's fault or how much of it was a fatal wound on Tamers' part?

We'll never know. Quality can't really be used as a metric considering the fact 02 is the most successful Digimon series despite being agreed to be objectively awful.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



and the only people to ever sub Frontier were Wolfpack Productions, who flat out made poo poo up.

That was a dark day for the Digimon fandom. After Megchan's died out all we had was them and the original incarnation of With the Will, complete with bonus Omnitor and his notorious pack of lies.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



I should note that Frontier's changing a timeslot in America likely had nothing to do with the franchise going on hiatus. It's not to say Toei had no interest in what america thought of the franchise at the time, but it was far less of a priority than how it was doing in its native country.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



and because of Omnitor, we have poo poo that persists even to this day, like the belief that there was a "Puppetmaster" connecting all four seasons that was cut from Frontier at the last minute, which somehow trickled down to the idea that Millenniumon is somehow all powerful and responsible for everything that ever happens in Adventure.

(He's not.

He's really kind of pathetic, honestly.

Like this kid who really wants his crush to pay attention to him.

Point is Fanon Millenniumon is really annoying).

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Blaze Dragon posted:

I'm not sure how anyone can think of Millenniumon as cool when his only goal was to get Ryo to notice him. Ryo isn't even cool, why the hell are you warping the fabric of reality constantly just to have him pay attention to you? He's got other Digimon, man, let it go.

Literally the only cool thing about him, if you can even call it that, is that he succeeds. After four games. And even there only by being forcefully fused into another Digimon.

The point is no one actually bothers to learn what those games are about, instead focusing on all the lies and stuff that's been created over the years, like "He can destroy the entire universe" and "he unleashed Apocalymon" and stuff.

It's pretty embarrassing how all this information persists.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



The thing is, that isn't even in the game. It's made up. It is not part of Adventure's plot, or the Ryo games' plot.

and the Kimeramon that fused with Mugendramon is a different one from the one Ken created. It's kind of vague how that works out, but they're different individuals all the same.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



http://www.syldra.net/yesterday/

the information has been available here for years. It's just been unable to spread.

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Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



say what you will about Frontier

but Lucemon is one of the best villains in the franchise

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