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DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!





IndyCar today is better than either series' were from after the split until the re-merger. Anyone who thinks otherwise is completely out of their minds.

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FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012



Cubey posted:

IndyCar today is better than either series' were from after the split until the re-merger. Anyone who thinks otherwise is completely out of their minds.

I don't know. I LOVED the FedEx era of CART and the Diet CART era of the IRL (2003, 2004).

Kanaan, Montoya, Tracy, Franchitti, De Ferran, Brack, Mad Max Papis...all were guys I loved following. I miss having Toyota, Ford and Mercedes Benz in the sport as well. I miss the old sound of the 2.65 liter turbo charged engines and venues like Cleveland.

This is however not to say that I'm not happy with what we currently have. Some of the racing were seeing is UNREAL at times. The competition level is also insane. But man...I'd love to see the sport have the type of engines that I heard making noise at Mid Ohio and Cleveland back when I was a kid.

Full Collapse
Dec 4, 2002



Really, I just feel sorry for Crapwagon posters. With the past, there's one thing to watch old races on YouTube and there's another to be substantially upset that the world didn't go your way.

Maybe it's because the split happened when I was 13 and had more pressing things to be angry about than race cars.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Minto Took posted:

Maybe it's because the split happened when I was 13 and had more pressing things to be angry about than race cars.

I don't know about you but 9-year-old me was really upset about that drat Cosworth blowing up in Michael's car in 1992 :v:

2016 thread titles?

It's a transition decade
Fu(king Crapturds
Going in circles (just like the cars)

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



I would happily take late 90s (hell, probably even 2000-2001) CART over today. Drivers I cared more about, better tracks, and fans that weren't dressed like thousands of chairs at every race.

vv There is nothing to understand. Those were bad years and anyone who has nostalgia for them is insane.

hunnert car pileup fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jan 1, 2016

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


Chalk me up as one who does not understand the nostalgia for 2003-2007 CCWS, having followed it.

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


Fauxhawk Express posted:

I would happily take late 90s (hell, probably even 2000-2001) CART over today.

Today has pretty good racing. It resembles late 90s-02 CART quite a bit.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky



The two worst years in motorsport I've followed from start to finish are 2004 Formula One, and 2007 CCWS.

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



Human Grand Prix posted:

Today has pretty good racing. It resembles late 90s-02 CART quite a bit.

I don't disagree at all. The racing is fantastic, but I can't bring myself to give a poo poo as much. Maybe it's because I'm older or because the one thing I wanted to see for many years finally happened (TK winning Indy).

quote:

2004 Formula One

I was at the USGP that year, and Sato getting on the podium and Baumgartner getting a point both ruled. So there's that at least.

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


2007 CCWS also had pretty awful grid quality. When Neel Jani can finish on the Podium semi-regularly it's a problem. It did have some cool circuits though.

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


Alain Post posted:

The two worst years in motorsport I've followed from start to finish are 2004 Formula One, and 2007 CCWS.

2007 CCWS made me stop watching american open-wheel for a few years.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky



I can confirm that you missed nothing.

Bentai
Jul 8, 2004


NERF THIS!




2007 was a good year for me. I got to watch the only Las Vegas Grand Prix, and see Will Power muscle SeaBass out of the way to win.

IceAgeComing
Jan 29, 2013

pretty fucking embarrassing to watch

Is there anyone from champ car that crapwagon still like? They seem to see everyone at all related with IndyCar as a traitor; so that leaves them with Neel Jani and Dan Clarke?

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky



ya casting people who were pay-drivers as like, ideological allies against the twIRL was one of my favorite things about CCF. I'm sure Tristian Gommendy really gives a poo poo about Tony George

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



I completely forgot about Dan "British Sage Karam" Clarke.

Crapwagoners slobbered all over Hinch back in the day, too.

hunnert car pileup fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jan 1, 2016

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012



Fauxhawk Express posted:

I completely forgot about Dan "British Sage Karam" Clarke.

Crapwagoners slobbered all over Hinch back in the day, too.

Oh they did. He was a poster there back in the day as well and took some shots at the IRL. Also had a video where he kind of playfully teases how silly the Indy 500 was back in 07.

IceAgeComing posted:

Is there anyone from champ car that crapwagon still like? They seem to see everyone at all related with IndyCar as a traitor; so that leaves them with Neel Jani and Dan Clarke?

They had a huge amount of respect for Gordon Johncock for blowing off Indy one year in order to show up at Oswego for an event. Oddly enough I seem to recall Gordy being at a few IRL era Indy 500's.

They were all over Mansell, Villeneuve and Montoya for all three blowing off the Danica-era IRL back in the day. Now that Villeneuve and Montoya have been back? They're pretty much dead to them.


Alain Post posted:

ya casting people who were pay-drivers as like, ideological allies against the twIRL was one of my favorite things about CCF. I'm sure Tristian Gommendy really gives a poo poo about Tony George

As mentioned Hinch wasn't a big fan of the IRL, but he's obviously changed his tune quite a bit since then. Which is smart because apparently he'd have to hit up ARCA had his open wheel career stalled.


Fauxhawk Express posted:

I would happily take late 90s (hell, probably even 2000-2001) CART over today. Drivers I cared more about, better tracks, and fans that weren't dressed like thousands of chairs at every race.

Tobacco Money FTW. Really that's what caused that series to be so good at the time.

Honestly I was more interested in Cup at the time (like most racing fans). But I did love it in retrospect. What we have right now is infinitely better than the 2005-2011 version of AOWR though.

FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jan 2, 2016

IceAgeComing
Jan 29, 2013

pretty fucking embarrassing to watch

Funny fact about Hinch that yous might know but I thought I'd mention it anyway - he did Eurosports Champ Car coverage in its last few years (example for anyone interested, be warned, its 2007 Champ Car) and in hindsight its incredibly weird. I wonder why they decided that - it could be because they recognised that he could be the sort of person that could be very popular and wanted to give him some exposure or something, although I think that most likely was that they couldn't find anyone else and they thought "meh, lets let this kid do it!" He doesn't seem to have been significantly anti-IRL - he did Atlantics for Forsythe in 2008 but that may have been something that he was contracted to do pre-unification, but by 2009 he was in Indy Lights and that doesn't seem like something that an anti-IRL person would do. Honestly I can't imagine that many of them cared a whole lot by that point: most of them were European or South American pay drivers who didn't care about 10 year old politics, the ones that weren't seemed to be people that wanted to run a predominately road-based schedule for whatever reason, and by 2007 the IRL were getting significantly more road events.

I've only ever really experienced a unified series because I came in at the tail end of the split: I can remember watching CART highlights in 99 or so (I can remember Franchitti's KOOL Green car clearly over the other ones, probably because he was Scottish and therefore Good), then they disappeared and I didn't watch anything until I randomly found highlights for the 2007 Indy 500 on Channel 5 or something and I thought that it was just the same thing with strangely ugly cars that had changed its name. I only ever really discovered the split because Gary Lee or whoever did the international commentary at the time kept mentioned unification during the first few races of 2008 and I wondered what the hell he was talking about and why suddenly there was ten more cars on the grid. My experience of the split and pre-split years are through watching (or for late Champ Car turning off half way in) old races on youtube or other places, which can't fully tell you what things were like at the time. That's probably why I find the CCF attitude so baffling; because it just seems like incredibly sad people mourning a dead racing series in the same way that one might mourn your mother or something, but instead of a few weeks its ten bloody years

Alain Post posted:

ya casting people who were pay-drivers as like, ideological allies against the twIRL was one of my favorite things about CCF. I'm sure Tristian Gommendy really gives a poo poo about Tony George

Juan Caceres was the greatest ally that REAL Champ Car racing had

I can vaguely remember once when I was bored looking up danica on the thing, and i'm pretty sure there are a load of nice positive posts about her before she went to the IRL and was running Atlantics which is odd considering the utter hatred that they've held for her in the ten years since.

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



The hate-on they had for Allmendinger when he left for NASCAR was pretty spectacular. Lots of posters said some really awful, uncalled for crap about his wife as well.

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012



Fauxhawk Express posted:

The hate-on they had for Allmendinger when he left for NASCAR was pretty spectacular. Lots of posters said some really awful, uncalled for crap about his wife as well.

They called Dan Wheldon gay and got upset that the IRL was praising him back in 2005.

They have this weird vision that anyone that follows IndyCar of any form is some toothless hilljack from Terre Haute now. That has never been my experience with the sport at all, and even if it was? I'd rather go watch a race with that guy over some douche bag that's just bitter about everything.


IceAgeComing posted:

I can vaguely remember once when I was bored looking up danica on the thing, and i'm pretty sure there are a load of nice positive posts about her before she went to the IRL and was running Atlantics which is odd considering the utter hatred that they've held for her in the ten years since.

There were some posts attacking Bobby Rahal in person apparently. One of their fans came up to him demanding an apology for "ruining" their sport. Apparently Rahal told him to "gently caress off" and that he has done way more for the sport than said idiot ever has.

Even if it's true? (which it's not). Rahal's right. I think they also implied that Bobby slept with Danica, and that Bobby is a jerk to fans in real life. (My interactions with the Rahals were actually very positive fwiw.). They have this very weird arrogance to them that makes them seem like they're better than people like Rick Mears or someone because they followed CART with undying loyalty. It's really idiotic.

I'm always fascinated in regards to how CART was marketed over seas post-Fittipaldi Indy 500 win to present. It's always made out that racing fans followed it and such. I'm not quite sure that's the case.

FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Jan 2, 2016

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



I don't need to say this, but it really is weird how they don't understand that this is like, you know....a job... to people. And their actual lives. Like of course Allmendinger took the buckets of cash to go run in NASCAR, hes not THAT much of a loving idiot, he was getting paid less than a goddamn dental assistant in ChampCar. But hes somehow a villain? Like, what?

Uncle Jam
Aug 20, 2005

Perfect


CW posters still watch the series and secretly love it.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

I wonder how much we can thank/blame the Crapwagon mentality to the rise of the Internet. The ease at which like-minded people could communicate with each other (and hurl abuses anonymously) grew over the same period in which the split was getting worse. Toward the end of the Split, Internet video (YouTube, etc.) was a lot more accessible, allowing these hangers-on the ability to very easily remain in the past by watching old races. Why watch the lovely new stuff when the best of the 80s and early 90s are a few clicks away?

It's easy for any delusional denomination to do that now, but this may have been one of the first groups to take advantage of the Internet to stay in their bubble world indefinitely.

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012



Cygni posted:

I don't need to say this, but it really is weird how they don't understand that this is like, you know....a job... to people. And their actual lives. Like of course Allmendinger took the buckets of cash to go run in NASCAR, hes not THAT much of a loving idiot, he was getting paid less than a goddamn dental assistant in ChampCar. But hes somehow a villain? Like, what?

Not that I'm trying to justify hating on a particular driver but I can kind of see why one would be a bit upset at a driver leaving a series.

Let's take Dario back in 08. Dario is probably one of my favorite drivers of all time in the sport as a whole. It was a bit upsetting seeing him leave IndyCar to go struggle in Cup and be thought of as a relative nobody. Case in point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7DKEik3LH0&t=1m55s

And I mean I GET IT. Dario was being watched by more per week than likely his Indy 500 win the year before. Dude was also getting paid and likely in a more safe car than the IR-05 death trap he was in the year before. But still it was upsetting to me to see the guy go from contending for wins and series titles in IndyCar to being met with indifference at driver intros during a cup race.

Oddly enough I don't find myself getting as upset when a driver from AOWR goes to F1 because it seems like the success rate for such a thing is much higher.

BMB5150
Oct 24, 2010

2018 Indianapolis 500 Winner



WindyMan posted:

I wonder how much we can thank/blame the Crapwagon mentality to the rise of the Internet. The ease at which like-minded people could communicate with each other (and hurl abuses anonymously) grew over the same period in which the split was getting worse. Toward the end of the Split, Internet video (YouTube, etc.) was a lot more accessible, allowing these hangers-on the ability to very easily remain in the past by watching old races. Why watch the lovely new stuff when the best of the 80s and early 90s are a few clicks away?

It's easy for any delusional denomination to do that now, but this may have been one of the first groups to take advantage of the Internet to stay in their bubble world indefinitely.

Huh Duke Video was onto something getting my youtube channel killed. I've gotten in an argument with a cw poster on youtube... just ended up with me trying to anger him more and more by just trolling his rear end. You can't talk sense to them. As what Pfannner said, it's like a the Japanese on that island thinking WWII is still going on and don't know otherwise.

IceAgeComing
Jan 29, 2013

pretty fucking embarrassing to watch

FuzzySkinner posted:

I'm always fascinated in regards to how CART was marketed over seas post-Fittipaldi Indy 500 win to present. It's always made out that racing fans followed it and such. I'm not quite sure that's the case.

I was a kid at the time admittedly but I can't remember the thing being marketed at all despite the fact that you had Franchitti doing well at the time. Lots of people sell it as a thing that was near F1 in terms of audience before Evil Tony ruined everything and that wasn't the case - . The big issue was that most of the live races were on Eurosport which approximately 10 people know they got, and although they had highlights on free TV I'm pretty sure they were either shown at one in the morning or attached to one of those Motorsports highlights shows between the British Rally Championship and Speedway, which doesn't exactly make you look like a significant growing sport. Sure it was covered a great deal in Autosport and people who were big racing fans were much more likely to follow it then than they are now: but it was very much behind rallying and touring car racing which both were going through their own wee boom periods at the same time.

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


Crapwagon seems to be under the impression that CART was rivalling F1 in terms of Global exposure. This was not the case. I do not think American Open-Wheel racing was ever really and F1 rival (and it did not/does not need to be). There also seems to be this feeling that the series could have survived; even if it did, watching a series made up mostly of third rate drivers with 17 car grids powered by primordal Cosworths would have an audience of 30 people.

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012



IceAgeComing posted:

I was a kid at the time admittedly but I can't remember the thing being marketed at all despite the fact that you had Franchitti doing well at the time. Lots of people sell it as a thing that was near F1 in terms of audience before Evil Tony ruined everything and that wasn't the case - .

Very similiar myth is played out here in the States. The claim was IndyCar was the more popular form of the sport and that NASCAR only really became popular across the country after Jeff Gordon became a thing. This is clearly false when you look at the popularity that stock car racing had in the northeast and midwest local scenes prior to the 90's. (cue Viking talking up Eastern States and the like. Yes I'm including modifieds in this). Ratings also say otherwise.

The Indianapolis 500 was still the biggest race ratings wise in the US up until 1996 though. After that it became about the same as a typical Cup telecast. This is not to downplay the crowds at various IndyCar races. Mid Ohio, Cleveland, Long Beach, Road America, Portland...all were very popular events and well attended.

But outside of the greater Indianapolis area you were not going to see some guy with a "Michael Andretti" sticker on the back of his car in the same vain you'd see a Dale Jr./Kyle Busch sticker on the back of someone's truck.

Trying to turn IndyCar into a more global series wasn't a bad idea though. It's something that NASCAR should have also tried to push when they were really getting popular domestically. It just seems like it was poorly executed in some ways.

Human Grand Prix posted:

Crapwagon seems to be under the impression that CART was rivalling F1 in terms of Global exposure. This was not the case. I do not think American Open-Wheel racing was ever really and F1 rival (and it did not/does not need to be). There also seems to be this feeling that the series could have survived; even if it did, watching a series made up mostly of third rate drivers with 17 car grids powered by primordal Cosworths would have an audience of 30 people.

It did well enough to make Bernie feel a bit threatened Mansell left. Part of me wonders how the gently caress it would have played out if Emmo would have sold Senna on coming to Penske in '93.

But that is very much correct.

FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Jan 2, 2016

IceAgeComing
Jan 29, 2013

pretty fucking embarrassing to watch

Senna wasn't going anywhere near Indycar in 93; he was getting $1 million a race at McLaren and he was guaranteed the Williams seat as soon as Prost decided to only drive for one more year and I'm pretty sure that was quite early on in 93. Had Bernie suspected that there was any chance that he'd lose both Senna and Mansell in 93 one of them would have been offered some obscene amount of money to stay in F1.

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007



IceAgeComing posted:

Senna wasn't going anywhere near Indycar in 93; he was getting $1 million a race at McLaren and he was guaranteed the Williams seat as soon as Prost decided to only drive for one more year and I'm pretty sure that was quite early on in 93. Had Bernie suspected that there was any chance that he'd lose both Senna and Mansell in 93 one of them would have been offered some obscene amount of money to stay in F1.

...except that Senna tested a Penske, so there was at least *some* interest. Stunt? Real interest? No clue. It wasn't some internet rumor though.

I think the CW mentality is something to do with maturity and identity as well. It's a very teenage thing to make things like that so life-and-death AND, specifically, to care so much about others' opinions in that regard. (Sure, there's still stuff that I take far too seriously, but it's personal to just me and not spouted in a manner similar to CART vs IndyCar on forums back in the day).

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012



The entire pissing contest that affected the sport since 1979 or so has been a nuisance.

Granted you've had a few figures who have found ways to pull their heads out of their own asses. But it really did create a lot unnecessary drama. Hell, you indeed have the "IRL" version of crapwagon in terms of people who refuse to follow IndyCar because it's not the USAC/1996-2001 IRL version of the sport.


harperdc posted:

...except that Senna tested a Penske, so there was at least *some* interest. Stunt? Real interest? No clue. It wasn't some internet rumor though.

Bernie I believe proposed some sort of series of races between F1 drivers and Indy drivers when Mansell came state side. I believe he said a "5 v. 5" or "4 v. 4". type of setup.

I realize he was just blowing smoke to make some sort of point, but I really wonder how that would play out.

Anyways, here's the interview Senna did with Brazilian TV with Emmo by his side

quote:

Q: Is that true?

Senna: Yes, well, I think so. Before I tested an Indycar my expectations didnít match with what the real thing is. One day Iím gonna win with this car, itís just a matter of time. As he said, we have to wait for the right moment, for the right time to participate in the races here in the US.

Q: You mean nothing is defined for 1993?

Senna: Absolutely not. The fact that I came here does not mean that I have something already fixed for next year. Weíre in a situation where I have to evaluate the alternatives in the matter of my own career and due to Formula 1ís difficulties, and Emersonís ďpressureĒ I came to check it out. Iím very happy I could experience how driving an Indycar feels even on a track like this because I have more data. So when I have to make a decision, being tomorrow or in 60 days, Iíll be able to make a better decision about the subject.

http://www.motorsportretro.com/2011/12/ayrton-senna-indycar/

Senna would make about 16 million dollars a year racing, correct? I believe CART drivers made about half of that during their peak.

FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Jan 2, 2016

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007



FuzzySkinner posted:

Anyways, here's the interview Senna did with Brazilian TV with Emmo by his side


http://www.motorsportretro.com/2011/12/ayrton-senna-indycar/

Senna would make about 16 million dollars a year racing, correct? I believe CART drivers made about half of that during their peak.

I bet it was more bargaining leverage than anything else, but I also imagine Marlboro would've found a way to make it happen. Or it would've been one year while waiting for Williams to open up...

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



This is all theoretical bullshit, but I think Senna's interest in CART was real... but he wasn't going to switch. I mean, F1 circa 93 was like 95% car and 5% driver, and we know Senna wasn't happy with that ratio. Meanwhile, CART had fat, heavy, more powerful true drivers cars.

But F1 had the glamour and prestige and pussy. And man is that powerful, to this day. F1 isnt about racing, its about status and money.

Dudley
Feb 24, 2003

Tasty



FuzzySkinner posted:

Tobacco Money FTW. Really that's what caused that series to be so good at the time.

Yeah, there was money to run 28 cars with (almost exclusively) decent drivers with 3 chassis, 3 engines and 2 tyre combination which (usually) created variety.

The only way we'll get back to that again is a very large industry deciding motorsport is where it wants to spend money. And there really aren't a lot of new suspects because outside of Apple, the new industry companies don't tend to make a lot of profit, nor are there enough of them the way there was with tobacco companies.

Dudley
Feb 24, 2003

Tasty



It's all theory of course but I think ultimately the times don't work out for Senna.

But my guess is that Senna would have been competitive in 1994 overall, even without the bullshit penalties Schumacher got but I don't think he could have won 1995.

I think at that point he might have decided to "retire" from F1 and go race Champ Car.

Alternatively he WOULD have won 1996 and 1997 (and JV probably wouldn't have come to F1 or not until 1999) and then considered it.

But in both cases you've got the split and I think the split would have killed him. If he'd moved in 1995, it might have been interesting, especially with Marlboro and Senna still in CART.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky



Cygni posted:

I mean, F1 circa 93 was like 95% car and 5% driver, and we know Senna wasn't happy with that ratio.

He would have been happy with that ratio if he had the FW15C.

Roller Coast Guard
Aug 27, 2006

With this magnificent aircraft,
and my magnificent facial hair,
the British Empire will never fall!




FuzzySkinner posted:

I'm always fascinated in regards to how CART was marketed over seas post-Fittipaldi Indy 500 win to present. It's always made out that racing fans followed it and such. I'm not quite sure that's the case.

Yeah, at least in the UK it wasn't marketed at all. I stumbled across it on Eurosport - which is not a big well known channel by any means, and you needed a cable or satellite TV subscription to access it - by accident whilst channel surfing on a Sunday night some time in 1997 and had no idea what I was looking at.

There was some buzz when Mansell went over and the highlights were shown on one of our big terrestrial channels for 93 and 94, and race reports were in Autosport, but other than that very little exposure at all.

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


FuzzySkinner posted:

They have this weird vision that anyone that follows IndyCar of any form is some toothless hilljack from Terre Haute now.

Which is hilarious, because some of us get that accusation when we suggest changes to Indycar here

e- oh and on the F1 popularity thing, I'd say CART got fairly close. CART was far more popular back then than AOWR is now, but the thing no one remembers is F1 wasn't as popular as it is now. You had a brief period where the F1 crapwagon guys died on a beach over turbo cars and Mansell leaving, and then the rise of Schumacher, all the time CART was knocking on their door. F1 was always gonna get more popular after that dip, but CART had a window to go after them and decided to US 500 it up and compete with the IRL, which shouldn't have been their focus.

e2- and Fuzzy is right, the most popular form of racing in the US from around 1948-1980 was modified stock cars, either dirt or pavement. Guys like Richie Evans and Buzzie Reutimann could have went to Indy or Daytona and multiple stars from either side openly said that they'd have to take a pay cut to do either.

Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Jan 2, 2016

Human Grand Prix
Jan 24, 2013

by FactsAreUseless


Alain Post posted:

He would have been happy with that ratio if he had the FW15C.

The MP4/8 is somewhat underrated, I'm curious what it could have actually done with a better engine.


That being said, I doubt Senna ever seriously considered a career stateside.

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Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008





FuzzySkinner posted:

They have this weird vision that anyone that follows IndyCar of any form is some toothless hilljack from Terre Haute now.

Hilljack?

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