MLB January N/V: Ernie Banks was one of the best SS of his generation

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > MLB January N/V: Ernie Banks was one of the best SS of his generation

«‹›45 »

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

Angry Grimace posted:

The idea he's not getting in at all is pretty out there, I think. He's getting in, its just a question of whether he gets in immediately.

The save might be a bullshit stat, but so are a lot of stats that voters care about and Hoffman broke Smith's record by about 125.

Hoffman's ERA and WHIP are also better. Although Smith's WAR is a bit higher.

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:32

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 19, 2024 18:18

MourningView: Sep 2, 2006; Is this Heaven?

DOOP posted:

The best 3B of all time is Michael Jack Schmidt

He means defensively.

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:34

TheJunkyardGod: Sep 19, 2004; Do not taunt the Octopus

So does Randy go in as a Mariner or Diamondback?

Edit: sorry, wrong thread.

TheJunkyardGod fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Jan 7, 2015

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:34

MourningView: Sep 2, 2006; Is this Heaven?

TheJunkyardGod posted:

So does Randy go in as a Mariner or Diamondback?

All his best years were with the Diamondbacks.

Also if we could keep hall of fame talk in the hall of fame thread it would be way less confusing!

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:35

Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

TheJunkyardGod posted:

So does Randy go in as a Mariner or Diamondback?

If we're going strictly by how dominant he was while with them, he'll go in as an Astro.

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:35

Intruder: Mar 5, 2003

FairGame posted:

Poorly. The Hall hates 3b for whatever reason, and Rolen spent the second half of his career being a shadow of his former self after Alex Cintron and Hee-Seop Choi bashed into him repeatedly. As a result, he doesn't really have the counting stats, either. Interestingly, I think he has a better case than Jim Edmonds, but I think Edmonds has a better chance of getting in (though I don't think either will.)

e: Adrian Beltre's another interesting case, and there's a decent chance he has 3000 hits by the time he hangs 'em up. Was never the best at his position, but was above average for a while (Seattle was weird) before a monster bounceback in his 30s as a Ranger.

gently caress Jim Edmonds

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:35

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Trevor Hoffman would be the worst Hall of Famer in quite some time.

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:38

Inspector_666: Oct 7, 2003; _{benny with the good hair}

thompson posted:

Headley has one which I find hilarious considering he's pretty run of the mill in my opinion and I think statistically too. How do they even decide them these days?

I haven't looked it up myself, but from what I've picked up second-hand he's above-average defensively, but not amazingly so.

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:40

thompson: Jun 6, 2006

INSPECTAH DECK posted:

Trevor Hoffman would be the worst Hall of Famer in quite some time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ock73QRJBto

But hells bells doeeeeeee

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:40

Mornacale: Dec 19, 2007; n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates

Komet posted:

I know Ozzie is the greatest defensive shortstop ever, like Brooks Robinson is the greatest third baseman ever (both of whom were merely average hitters). Ozzie's batting stats aren't "significantly" better. They are fairly comparable. But Vizquel did win 9 Gold Gloves in a row followed by another 2 in the mid-2000s. As I said, I think he was the second best defensive shortstop during the era. And I think that's good enough for the Hall.

Ozzie Smith was 8% better at hitting than Omar Vizquel, and the difference in their peaks was actually higher than that. If Vizquel is "fairly comparable" to Ozzie Smith, then he's also "fairly comparable" to the immortal Royce Clayton.

# ? Jan 6, 2015 23:52

Shine: Feb 26, 2007; No Muscles For The Majority

MourningView posted:

Davey Conception is only in the hall of fame that exists entirely in Joe Morgan's head.

Speaking of, is there a good blog out there that makes fun of dumb sportswriters, like Fire Joe Morgan back in the day? I remember reading that years ago and it was hella funny.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 00:02

Harlock: Jan 15, 2006; Tap "A" to drink!!!

Put Scott Rolen in the Hall

# ? Jan 7, 2015 00:11

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

Shine posted:

Speaking of, is there a good blog out there that makes fun of dumb sportswriters, like Fire Joe Morgan back in the day? I remember reading that years ago and it was hella funny.

I can't think of one off the top of my head, but if you've never read this oral history of FJM, you should.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 00:11

cams: Mar 28, 2003

edit: did not see the hall of fame thread

# ? Jan 7, 2015 00:29

Der Meister: May 12, 2001

gently caress Piazza for wanting to go in as a Met

# ? Jan 7, 2015 00:50

ZenVulgarity: Oct 9, 2012; I made the hat by transforming my zen

Der Meister posted:

gently caress Piazza for wanting to go in as a Met

Everyone expos

# ? Jan 7, 2015 00:52

uublog: Jul 19, 2012; "World Champions. WORLD FUCKING CHAMPIONS." - Chase Utley, October 31, 2008; Broad Street, Philadelphia, PA

Pizza should be the best troll and go in as a Marlin

# ? Jan 7, 2015 01:11

Xenophon: Jun 28, 2003; by FactsAreUseless; Grimey Drawer

Ken Griffey Jr. Chicage White Sock :getin:

# ? Jan 7, 2015 01:18

rickiep00h: Aug 16, 2010; BATDANCE

MourningView posted:

Also if we could keep hall of fame talk in the hall of fame thread it would be way less confusing!

This is my fault and I'm sorry.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 01:20

will_colorado: Jun 30, 2007

OH GOD, the James Shields :siren:

MYSTERY TEAM :siren:

, may be.............Colorado?

http://blakestreetblogger.sportsblog.com/posts/1551640/source__rockies_offer_james_shields_a_multiyear_contract.html

quote:

The Colorado Rockies have submitted an offer to free agent RHP James Shields, a source confirmed late Sunday night. It was reported by FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal on Sunday that "Big Game James" and his agent have been telling teams that he has received a 5 year, 110 million dollar offer from a "mystery team".

# ? Jan 7, 2015 02:39

TheIncredulousHulk: Sep 3, 2012

will_colorado posted:

OH GOD, the James Shields MYSTERY TEAM , may be.............Colorado?

http://blakestreetblogger.sportsblog.com/posts/1551640/source__rockies_offer_james_shields_a_multiyear_contract.html

Have they lost their loving minds.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 03:09

Jim Dwyer: Mar 29, 2014

TheIncredulousHulk posted:

Have they lost their loving minds.

This would imply they ever had them to begin with

# ? Jan 7, 2015 03:36

zakharov: Nov 30, 2002; Tater Love

Yankees just signed Drew for 5m, 7m with incentives. I'm ok with this. He can't possibly be as bad as last year.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 03:43

abelwingnut: Dec 23, 2002

big fields shields

# ? Jan 7, 2015 03:44

Janana: May 17, 2009; Diamondbacks Baseball: Injuries and Futility R Us

zakharov posted:

Yankees just signed Drew for 5m, 7m with incentives. I'm ok with this. He can't possibly be as bad as last year.

But now they aren't all in on Didi "Kevin Towers Didn't Actually Call Me The Next Derek Jeter" Gregorius.

Hmm.

Hmmmmmmmm.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 04:21

leokitty: Apr 5, 2005; I live. I die. I live again.

Janana posted:

But now they aren't all in on Didi "Kevin Towers Didn't Actually Call Me The Next Derek Jeter" Gregorius.

Hmm.

Hmmmmmmmm.

Drew will be back at second base.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 04:26

Inspector_666: Oct 7, 2003; _{benny with the good hair}

zakharov posted:

Yankees just signed Drew for 5m, 7m with incentives. I'm ok with this. He can't possibly be as bad as last year.

I figure that not missing a quarter (?) of a season plus spring training certainly can't hurt.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 05:32

Monday_: Feb 18, 2006; Worked-up silent dork without sex ability seeks oblivion and demise.; The Great Twist

N: Yankees give 5 million dollars to a guy who slashed .162/.237/.299 last year.

V: I loving hate Stephen Drew.

Monday_ fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Jan 7, 2015

# ? Jan 7, 2015 06:13

Dr. Kyle Farnsworth: Apr 23, 2004

Drew'll bounce back and we'll actually have a shortstop rather than a walking corpse so that should help around the infield.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 07:15

Politicalrancor: Jan 29, 2008

if I were a fan of a small market team, sure I'd give this more thought, but I'm a yankees fan and it doesn't really matter

# ? Jan 7, 2015 08:38

Shine: Feb 26, 2007; No Muscles For The Majority

N: I just posted a contest with prizes for all the stat miners out there: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3692920

tl;dr make a statistical HoF case for some decent-at-best 90's Mariners by finding arbitrary stat combos they share with Hall of Famers (ex. "Johnny Batsman is one of three shortstops in history with X doubles in a season, Y stolen bases in the month of August, and Z walks in a playoff series. The other two? Cal Ripken Jr. and Ernie Banks."')

V: My girlfriend didn't know that Ken Griffey Jr. is black :psyduck:

# ? Jan 7, 2015 09:41

ZenVulgarity: Oct 9, 2012; I made the hat by transforming my zen

Shine posted:

N: I just posted a contest with prizes for all the stat miners out there: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3692920

tl;dr make a statistical HoF case for some decent-at-best 90's Mariners by finding arbitrary stat combos they share with Hall of Famers (ex. "Johnny Batsman is one of three shortstops in history with X doubles in a season, Y stolen bases in the month of August, and Z walks in a playoff series. The other two? Cal Ripken Jr. and Ernie Banks."')

V: My girlfriend didn't know that Ken Griffey Jr. is black

Your girlfriend needs to use the Google more

# ? Jan 7, 2015 13:51

axeil: Feb 14, 2006

So I've been out of the loop on the Phillies for a year or so because it's been super depressing but I've started to pay slightly more attention because with the J-Roll trade and other moves it looks like they've finally realize the team needs to rebuild.

To that end, I know RAJ said that the team would be better off without Ryan Howard and I thought this article was interesting: http://crashburnalley.com/2015/01/03/on-trading-ryan-howard/

Crashburn Alley posted:

On philly.com, Bob Brookover wrote about why the Phillies need to trade Ryan Howard otherwise �the rebuilding process will be stalled.�

The crux of Brookover�s argument:

"Now, he�s the Big Piece because the Phillies cannot totally move forward until they put Howard�s Philadelphia career in the past. They can live with Utley at second base for a while because there is no top prospect to replace him.

Howard, on the other hand, would be standing in the way of Maikel Franco if he is standing on first base on opening day against the Boston Red Sox. Franco, 22, keeps sending signals that he is ready to play in the big leagues. He did so during his final two months at triple-A Lehigh Valley last season by hitting .324 with 11 home runs, 47 RBIs, and a .924 OPS. He has continued to make a statement in winter ball by batting .272 with an .805 OPS, eight doubles, seven home runs, and 29 RBIs in his first 38 games with Gigantes del Cibao in the Dominican Republic.
[�]

The Phillies could move Cody Asche to left field and play Franco at third base, but that is not the stated plan for now. Based on what we saw in a brief time frame last year, Franco is ready defensively to play either corner position. Asche at third base and Franco at first is the best scenario for the franchise�s future."

There�s no discernible downside to removing Howard from the roster and no one�s going to claim otherwise. It�s been excruciating to watch the former titan struggle so mightily and it�s all but impossible to imagine any scenario where he has a meaningful contribution to the next successful Phillies team. His salary is a sunk cost, you know it, I know it, Amaro knows it and every other GM in baseball knows it. Where I disagree with Brookover is that any of it matters.

Howard�s cost is prohibitive, so much so that the Phillies will likely need to pay the majority of the remaining salary. As a result, salary relief is not a significant consideration in trading Ryan Howard. Neither is talent acquisition as it is difficult to imagine any team surrendering a valuable prospect to the Phillies for the right to roster a 35-year-old first baseman with a bad body whose skills are in steep decline. Therefore, Brookover is exactly right to zero in on the only way a Howard move makes a difference: making room for a young player that actually could be a factor on the next good Phillies team.

Maikel Franco is an important component of the Phillies future and he may be Major League ready on Opening Day 2015. There may be nothing left for him to learn in AAA that he can�t learn in the majors, but nothing I�ve seen guarantees that scenario. This is a 22-year-old kid that struggles with pitch recognition and has only spent a season and a half playing above A-ball. Might it do him some good to spend the first few months in AAA where he�s able to focus on skill-building and not performance? Maybe. Selfishly I hope that�s not the case. I�m ready for the intrigue of watching Franco play every day, but just because I want it to be true doesn�t mean it is. If he�s not there yet, there is literally no benefit to rushing him. He�ll be spending time with the big league coaches and players during Spring Training. He�s going to get Major League experience and instruction this season. If he�s not �ready� on Opening Day, then that�s absolutely fine.

But to Brookover�s point, what if he is ready? If they determine there�s no reason for Franco to go back to Lehigh Valley, then they need to put him in the best position to succeed and that means playing him at third base, not first. He has the hands, he has the arm, he has the instincts and he�s better defensively than anyone the Phillies have played there since the departure of Placido Polanco. He�s still young and it�s absolutely possible that as he ages his already slow body will force him across the diamond, but squeeze as much value out of Franco as possible by playing him at the hot corner for as long as he can handle the position.

So where does that leave Cody Asche? I don�t mean to give up on a guy who also is quite young, just 24, but Asche has improved massively over his career just to get his defense to the point it was last season and I can�t think of a reason to believe he has much room left to grow defensively. When it comes down to it, the defense he showed last year is not the defense of a Major League regular third baseman and, so far, the bat is at best fringe for the position. If Franco is ready, expand Asche�s versatility with work at other positions during Spring Training and if a team loses a third baseman to injury during the spring, see if you can trade him. If there�s no trade to be made, a rebuilding team can do a lot worse than a super-utility piece like Cody Asche on the roster.

There�s an argument to be made that the rebuilding process could be stalled if prospects like Franco waste away in AAA when they�re otherwise Major League ready, but that�s not something that�s going to happen just because Ryan Howard remains on the roster. In regards to the rebuild, the only thing trading Howard will accomplish is a symbolic turning of the page.

Essentially it disagrees with the argument that you need to move Howard to keep him from blocking players who are young and actually might be good. Reading between the lines though it seems to argue that Howard is probably going to play out his final years in Philly on the bench not getting any meaningful playing time as no one would ever trade for him and anything you're likely to get for him won't be worth the cost of trading him. Benching him solves the blocking issue and the no one will trade for him issue. That's really sad but I'm so mad that RAJ didn't see this coming. Hell, I saw this coming when they gave him an extension despite his contract not being even close to done.

I guess I'm curious if anyone here thinks he'll ever get traded or cut or if he's really going to play out his final years in baseball sitting on the bench. What a way for things to end. :smith:

It also blows my mind that RAJ hasn't been fired yet. The team was absolutely painful to watch last year and it's not going to get any better. All this is totally on him and handing out insane contracts to players who were going to decline hard.

axeil fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jan 7, 2015

# ? Jan 7, 2015 14:19

Darude - Adam Sandstorm: Aug 16, 2012

The Jays reportedly have a verbal agreement with Vlad Jr for 3.2 million. Which owns. What also owns is that this seems like the type of precursor to going hog wild on IFAas.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 15:14

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

I understand Kenta Maeda went back to Japan rather than sign in MLB, are there any significant Japanese FA's left?

# ? Jan 7, 2015 16:16

leokitty: Apr 5, 2005; I live. I die. I live again.

El Gallinero Gros posted:

I understand Kenta Maeda went back to Japan rather than sign in MLB, are there any significant Japanese FA's left?

Maeda wasn't posted by his team, do you mean Kuroda?

# ? Jan 7, 2015 16:20

Mr. Fix It: Oct 26, 2000; 💀ayyy💀

El Gallinero Gros posted:

I understand Kenta Maeda went back to Japan rather than sign in MLB, are there any significant Japanese FA's left?

I think you're conflating Hideki Kuroda, who did go back to Japan, with Kenta Maeda, who's under contract with the Hiroshima Carp and wasn't posted.

As for Japanese FA's, I think Aoki is still on the market.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 16:21

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

leokitty posted:

Maeda wasn't posted by his team, do you mean Kuroda?

I thought the tweet that broke Kuroda's return to Japan said Maeda had considered coming over but decided not to?

# ? Jan 7, 2015 16:33

Crimson Sox: Jan 16, 2008; Bromance

El Gallinero Gros posted:

I understand Kenta Maeda went back to Japan rather than sign in MLB, are there any significant Japanese FA's left?

Takashi Toritani is a FA and have talked with the Padres and Blue Jays
Ichiro's still out there too

# ? Jan 7, 2015 16:39

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 19, 2024 18:18

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

Crimson Sox posted:

Takashi Toritani is a FA and have talked with the Padres and Blue Jays
Ichiro's still out there too

Hmm, seems like he could be a decent leadoff guy if his skills translate.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 16:41

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > MLB January N/V: Ernie Banks was one of the best SS of his generation

«‹›45 »