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spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014





Cessna posted:

Yeah, I wouldn't buy used gear that I hadn't seen in person and tried on.


Edit: And buying used gear on line sounds like a way to end up with some really stinky stuff.

Yeah, the club and the school both have a bulletin board with used stuff for sale on it. I'll go for that to get the foils.

I'll just buy the jackets/masks new.

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spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014





Crazy Achmed posted:


Whites should be rated to withstand an impact of 350N or 800N, the latter is considered the minimum for most competitions as it's safer. If you think you might stick with the sport and have the budget, skip the 350N stuff. Treat your gear well and it'll last for years before it even starts getting ratty. I bought the cheapest 800N jacket available to me when I was new; it's comfortable enough and has lasted over a decade now.


Nobody has mentioned impact measurement until you just did.

Is this a big deal? I now see that the 350n stuff is cheaper. Would it be ok if I'm just fencing at the club with epee?

Also, is a plastron meant to add more protection and should I have one?

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

spacetoaster posted:

Is this a big deal? I now see that the 350n stuff is cheaper. Would it be ok if I'm just fencing at the club with epee?

The 350 stuff is fine for any sort of club-level fencing and it will serve as practice gear for as long as it lasts.

If you're looking to do a higher level tournament you'll need the 800 stuff. But, yes, it is more expensive. You won't need it for a while, so maybe get the 350 stuff until you're sure you're really into it and looking to compete.

spacetoaster posted:

Also, is a plastron meant to add more protection and should I have one?

It's there so that if somehow a blade finds a seam or opening in the side facing your opponent it won't go straight through.

You'll need one; my club/school won't let people fence without one.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

Oh yeah, get a plastron. I'm pretty convinced that the reason why fencing has such a good safety record is because good protective gear is standard. If you ever take an injury it's far more likely to be something self-inflicted like a rolled ankle, than a concussion or actual cut/stab wound.

Used gear can be fine, I'm still rocking a pair of second-hand pants I bought years ago. Unless stuff has been badly treated (it'll be obvious) once through the washing machine on a gentle cold cycle should do the trick.

In unrelated news, I'm getting fairly happy with my foil right now. Got a bunch of nice attacks and ripostes off tonight where I managed to feint and approach well enough that my opponents were visibly freaked out and doing massive sweepy parries that I could disengage around cleanly. It's great when you can see the "oh poo poo how the hell did you just do that" expression on their face right as you hit them.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013



Been watching some of the world cup matches and I can't help thinking that sabre would benefit from having accelerometers put back in?.
Also, can it register a touch on the whole blade and not sure the cutting edge?.
At least with both foil & epee, there's a basic level of force required to register a touch.

I did actually promise myself that I would try fencing again when I passed my 5th dan, but I would struggle to find time. (Although I did just look up the local club...they do have adult classes Saturday mornings...).

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

ImplicitAssembler posted:

Been watching some of the world cup matches and I can't help thinking that sabre would benefit from having accelerometers put back in?.
Also, can it register a touch on the whole blade and not sure the cutting edge?.
At least with both foil & epee, there's a basic level of force required to register a touch.

Yeah, it'll register the whole blade, but I think the ref is supposed to look for the hit being made on the cutting edge (and top third of the opposite edge?)?

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

dupersaurus posted:

Yeah, it'll register the whole blade, but I think the ref is supposed to look for the hit being made on the cutting edge (and top third of the opposite edge?)?

Nope, any part of the blade. Link to FIE rules. USA Fencing Rules, which I think are the same - they are in the t. 96 section.

quote:

METHOD OF MAKING A HIT

t.96

1. The sabre is a weapon for thrusting and cutting with both the cutting edge and the back of the blade.
2. All hits made with the cutting edge, the flat or the back of the blade are counted as good (cuts and back cuts).
3. It is forbidden to hit with the guard. Any hits registered by hitting with the guard must be annulled, the fencer so hitting being penalised as specified in Articles t.158-163, t.165,t.170.
4. Hits through the blade, that is to say those which touch at the same time the valid target and the sabre of the opponent, are valid whenever they arrive clearly on the target.
5. Placing the weapon on the piste at any time to straighten it is forbidden. Any breaking of this rule will be punished according to Articles t. 158-163, t.165, t.170.

I think the rationale is that sabre is fast enough anyway for it to be hard for refs to make the right call, let alone determine which edge of the thing hit first.

Cessna fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Nov 7, 2019

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

Accelerometer technology has come a long way since they last tried to use them, but I have a feeling that because you need to measure something considerably more complex than just "did the switch close" there could be a lot of room for weird glitches and loopholes.

Plus there is priority, so even if somebody tries to pull some bullshit on you, you have time for your attack to go through or for a nice parry/riposte.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Yeah, "did it touch y/n" is as good a criteria as any, and even that gets confusing with you get two lights.

I've been trying to ref when I'm resting between bouts and holy crap some of those calls are close. I think half the time I just say "simultaneous" because I just couldn't see who was moving in first.

Any hints or tips on refing are welcome.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Ref more. A lot more. Then ref some more after that, all ideally with supervision and feedback.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Ravenfood posted:

Ref more. A lot more. Then ref some more after that, all ideally with supervision and feedback.

Being the key. Find mentors that actually know what they’re doing is how you do it.

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014





Cessna posted:

Or maybe there's some bad blood there, who knows.

Apparently this is it.

I've gotten 4 emails from club leadership today telling me that I can't have anything to do with "that other club", including just taking a private lesson from one of their instructors.

Holy crap are they still very heated about something from a decade ago that I don't care to even know about.

HPanda
Sep 5, 2008


Just picked fencing back up today. I fenced foil 20 years ago. Took my kids with me (almost 7 and 8) since they have kid classes for foil, and took an adult/teen Epee class myself.

Had a great time. Little bits of muscle memory still there. Not much, but enough that it really felt like coming home.

The club situation is sorta weird here, too. There seem to be three clubs, one for Epee/foil, and two for Sabre. I went with the Epee/foil one since the cost seemed the most reasonable and they had clearly listed and really regular open bouting.

Now just to figure out how to pay for it all. Both kids loved it, so along with me, this is gonna be pricey.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

spacetoaster posted:

Apparently this is it.

I've gotten 4 emails from club leadership today telling me that I can't have anything to do with "that other club", including just taking a private lesson from one of their instructors.

Holy crap are they still very heated about something from a decade ago that I don't care to even know about.

That's some weird poo poo, and kind of messed up that they can't just explain the situation to you straight up. I don't suppose there is a third club that's relatively drama-free?

Re reffing, yeah, getting feedback is the way to go. If it's just regular bouting at club, don't be afraid to make a call - if it's wrong, somebody might point it out but hopefully they will be polite about it and explain why. Same sort of thing applies if you didn't see what happened and need to admit that.
Watching high level stuff can be good practise too, and a good bout is always fun to see. Mens team foil from the last world champs is here, starts at abour 56 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2B-mW3sJyk

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014





Where are we allowed to mark on our mask and jacket?

I would like to get my name embroidered on them, but I'm not sure about the rules.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

spacetoaster posted:

Where are we allowed to mark on our mask and jacket?

I would like to get my name embroidered on them, but I'm not sure about the rules.

I don't know if there is a rule on what you can't do, but:

1. In big competitions fencers have their name and country on the back of their lame in big blue letters, I'm sure there's a rule covering this:



2. Before competitions they check your gear to make sure it is safe and mark is with a little stamp to show it has passed. Some of the uber-vets at my club have masks with all sorts of stamps on the sides.

Personally I just wrote my name inside my stuff with a sharpie. It isn't visible from the outside, but it's enough for me to see if it's my gear when I'm packing up for the night.

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014





Cessna posted:

I don't know if there is a rule on what you can't do, but:

1. In big competitions fencers have their name and country on the back of their lame in big blue letters, I'm sure there's a rule covering this:



2. Before competitions they check your gear to make sure it is safe and mark is with a little stamp to show it has passed. Some of the uber-vets at my club have masks with all sorts of stamps on the sides.

Personally I just wrote my name inside my stuff with a sharpie. It isn't visible from the outside, but it's enough for me to see if it's my gear when I'm packing up for the night.

Thanks. I went and read some rules and it seems it'll be across our backs.

Anybody got any pointers on beating kids? My 11 year old is just murdering me. Just getting in real low and I just don't know how to deal with it.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

spacetoaster posted:

Anybody got any pointers on beating kids?

Hell if I know. My 13 year old got me into it, and he slaughters me.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

spacetoaster posted:

Thanks. I went and read some rules and it seems it'll be across our backs.

Anybody got any pointers on beating kids? My 11 year old is just murdering me. Just getting in real low and I just don't know how to deal with it.

You’ll eventually reach wily old person status and can flummox them for a few years until their superior fitness catches up, but until then...

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014





dupersaurus posted:

You’ll eventually reach wily old person status and can flummox them for a few years until their superior fitness catches up, but until then...

That's pretty much how it goes in boxing as well.

And the timing, as well as the feint/attack moves, I have from boxing have been a big help.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

How are they hitting you? If you know the attack's coming to lowline, take an extra step back to draw the attack out and see if you can block it out with a lowline parry like octave or seconde. That's the standard part of my unfit wily older guy strategies, the other parts being trying to take advantage of my height and fence from a longer distance than they can deal with, or just being a bastard and seeing if they know how to deal with a march with absence of blade.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Crazy Achmed posted:

How are they hitting you?

For one thing my son has been doing this for over four years, and I've been in it for two and a half months.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
DESPITE CLAIMING TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT LANGUAGES I CAN'T COMMUNICATE WORTH A DAMN

When in doubt, flechee.

(I'm a longsword fencer and this is from when I did epee like a million years ago. It's not a good strategy against anyone who knows what they're doing, but will mess up a newb once.)

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Xiahou Dun posted:

When in doubt, flechee.

(I'm a longsword fencer and this is from when I did epee like a million years ago. It's not a good strategy against anyone who knows what they're doing, but will mess up a newb once.)

Not just a newb, that strategy carried me to an A rating once upon a time.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

spacetoaster posted:

Anybody got any pointers on beating kids? My 11 year old is just murdering me. Just getting in real low and I just don't know how to deal with it.


Cessna posted:

Hell if I know. My 13 year old got me into it, and he slaughters me.

For serious though, foil is pretty much the worst weapon to be facing tweens and teens as An Old Person, but a lot of the problems you're having are likely more about being a new fencer, just maybe amplified by any young-vs-old disparities. Like Achmed said, if you know they're coming low (definitely if they're shorter than you), then have a low-line parry loaded and ready to go, and get real good at hitting them on the shoulder. But problems about parrying are rarely actually about parrying because:

Distance distance distance distance. Distance.. Distance.

You're probably letting them be too close to start with, or you're not reacting in time to them getting too close. Especially if they're shorter. Defend with your feet before your blade to give you more time and room to maneuver, and parrying becomes easier. Vary the tempo of your steps (forward and backward) so they can't predict a pattern. Think of distance like an accordion and never keep a constant distance. The goal is to make them uncomfortable, make them think, make them work. That'll slow them down and give you a chance once someone pulls the trigger.

And it's pretty much the same idea when attacking

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

dupersaurus posted:

Distance distance distance distance. Distance.. Distance.

This, many times over. Even if your opponent is younger and faster than you, all you need is one good step at the right time, no more than that. There will be a "sweet spot" distance where your attacker is far enough away that you have enough time to see the line and take the parry, but not so far away that they can deal with your riposte. Spend some time working out where your distance is, and lure your opponent into it. If they know what they are doing, they will of course be doing the same thing and trying to trick you into getting into their distance.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

I had a great lesson last night. For the first time the footwork felt comfortable and I could concentrate on distance and even a bit of strategy about how I came off the line at the start. It's nice to see what this can lead to.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

Awesome! You can also keep an eye out for other people making the same mistakes as you do/used to do, and take advantage of that.
Just spend some time at the gym to even yourself out, I've been noticing how much bigger my right forearm is than my left. I swear it's the fencing.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013



I've been called Popeye more than once...it's really disproportionate.

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever


ImplicitAssembler posted:

I've been called Popeye more than once...it's really disproportionate.

Haha yeah I had the same thing.



Then I got a girlfriend.












And of course dating took up all my fencing time.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

I had a really weird practice match last night. I went up against a woman who just started at our club and her footwork was just freaky-weird; she could just spring around.

Turns out she's a professional ballerina. It was like trying to pin down a butterfly.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

Welp, I did a nice counterattack/esquive the other day but ended up killing my foil somehow in the process (constant offtarget but I don't see any break in the wire... yet. Haven't had time to check too closely). How often do you all go on average before needing to rewire a blade?

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Dunno, sabres don't have wires. My son seems to need something fixed every year or so, but I have no idea how typical that is.

I'm having a great time myself, I feel like I'm starting to get to the point where I know enough about the basics to start actively looking at strategies and tactics. I had a really good practice match against an experienced fencer last night that went 14-15. Even though I lost I felt really comfortable and able to think through moves instead of just reacting.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

Ah yes, sabre lames and masks may be bullshit for additional points of failure, but at least the weapons are easy. I checked over my weapon today and I think everything is fine, it might have just been some corrosion inside the socket (probably gross sweat getting inside there somehow, ewww).

I think the feeling of progression like you're describing is one of the most satisfying and fun things about fencing! You'll start really scaring your opponents when they realise you can hide your intentions and make a planned set-up look exactly the same as a reflex reaction... until you spring the trap.

HPanda
Sep 5, 2008


I'm a little late to injury chat, but wanted to check in with my recent experience. I fenced foil 20 years ago, just started fencing again, but this time I'm going epee. It's a lot of fun, but I've noticed one key difference.

(picture of bruising)


The arm is a target.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Slippery Tilde

Ouch, I hope that clears up soon. I'm currently trying to fix up some stuff I've pulled in my hip/upper thigh, hopefully it gets OK-ish by the time next year's season starts up again.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

My club had a tournament on New Years Day and I finished 20th out of 30 Sabre fencers. I'm pretty proud of that!

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Me at practice tonight:

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever


Cessna posted:

Me at practice tonight:



That's so Fleche









(yes I know its saber, still gonna make Fleche happen)

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Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

DandyLion posted:

(yes I know its saber, still gonna make Fleche happen)

Flunge! Flunge!

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