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Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

ScratchAndSniff posted:

All this talk about realism reminds me of a woman I once trained with who legitimately thought that her fencing experience translated into knife-fighting, and she always carried around a knife "just in case." She swore that she could draw her knife fast enough to fight off any mugger who had a gun.

Anyone else know people who legitimately believe fencing/swordfighting can be used for self defense?

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Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

Cutting practice with two different longswords. The first video is with my sword, an Albion Crecy, and the second is using a friend's Albion Count.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi7zuY-I-c0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UFzBmhcz7M

It seems like you have enough space to incorporate footwork (passes, steps) in your cuts. I think that would be more valuable than standing still. Sort of like shadow boxing.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

WoodrowSkillson posted:

Rapiers were all over the place in terms of thickness, length etc depending on time, place, and preferred style.

yo uh not all the swords in this pic are rapiers. The vertical sword is a side-sword, to the right of that is an 18th century broadsword (technically a backsword- you can tell by the fuller on one side), and to the right of that is a schiavona, and on the far left is (arguably) another side-sword.

also you might want to link to imgur instead

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

El Spamo posted:

Eh, the ring thing is a good exercise for point control. The pig stabbing part really shows why those swords (and duels) were so lethal. It really did not take much effort to skewer it deeply, you did not have to be a big strong person to be a duelist.

this is true for any unarmored (and apparently naked) fighting with swords though, even round-tipped Type Xs.

Edit: I also haven't heard of smallsword dueling being thought of as terribly lethal, but rather the opposite. This is because, at least in part, of harsher enforcement of laws against dueling over the 17th century. This increasingly led to duels to first blood rather than to the death so that both participants would not be killed. For whatever it's worth, wikipedia's source claims over 400 deaths in 10k duels from 1685-1716, which seems to confirm what I have read elsewhere. A death rate of 2%
is not terribly fearsome.

Liquid Communism posted:

Don't forget the two parrying daggers in there as well. The on the left appears to be in the swordbreaker style.

I think even ws knows the difference between a sword and a dagger.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Mar 10, 2015

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Crazy Achmed posted:

So I've always wondered, how does a basket hilt actually protect the hand? The one posted above looks like you could still thrust a blade through it at a near dead-on angle and hit the weapon hand. Or is it just a trick of perspective?

Basket hilts (especially early ones) are really designed to defend against cuts, you mostly defend against thrusts with timing, distance, and blade control.

There are leather coverings inside some basket hilts but I suspect that is there more to keep your knuckles from bashing on the basket than to protect the hand from blades.

Verisimilidude posted:

I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly why they adopted the cup hilt.

basket hilts exist contemporaneously with cup hilts, and the big advantage of cup hilts (within the context of an army supplied in bulk) is that they're significantly easier and faster to make.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Zeitgueist posted:

Get a heavier pommel.

wrong. Get swole. Work those flexors

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Zachack posted:

That epee video is clearly faked because a fencing match with two lean, quick epee fencers has never happened. One epee fencer must always be a human whale or possibly a normal person but unable to bounce due to a lifetime of injury, or possibly just old age. I bet it's just foil and they colored over the silver lame.

More proof of not-epee: no one had to sit down after the point for a breather, or other air-gasping behavior.

judging by this thread it clearly can't be foil because they have more than 10 grams of muscle mass in their arms.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

Hey fencing nerds, what do y'all do for conditioning? America got stomped by the Euros at the Purpleheart Open, partially because they're far more conditioned than we are (generally).

I'm a bit of a chub right now, and I want to be a not chub. Also I want to not get winded after 3 minutes of intense sparring.

You can do push ups, sit ups, squats and running or swimming. These are basic, easy body weight exercises that will help with endurance, core, arm and leg strength. For pure swinging you might want to do something with Indian clubs maybe? I swing 4-6lb hammers in one hand on the reg as a blacksmith so I'm pretty sorted in that dept. Remember to stretch!!! I do supermans and hanging leg lifts for my core because my tail bone rubs in the ground when I do sit ups.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Liquid Communism posted:

Interesting, although it doesn't say much about rapiers given that it's pretty much in the perfect place to have been caused by a strike from above by a cavalry sabre. :)

They didn't generally use sabers except in the east in this period. However there were plenty of wider-bladed swords running around, used by both infantry and cavalry. The damage we see could have been done by a few things, including polearms and shrapnel. It might even have been done post-mortem.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Mar 25, 2015

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

dupersaurus posted:

For whatever reason that's a fairly common saber break, where the tang breaks in the grip and the whole weapon tumbles apart, leaving an empty guard in your hand.

This is because lateral impacts (from cutting movements) put a lot stress on the shoulder of the tang. I do not know if fencing sabres are particularly prone to it because they are so light but in the instances I've seen with historical reproduction swords it's been chalked up to poor heat treatment.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

I sparred my teacher and did pretty well (but honestly he could destroy me if he wanted)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUrUoD3j4-k (I'm in the black jacket)

It seems like in general you guys don't really bind a lot. Is that a consequence of the flexibility of the swords?

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Rabhadh posted:

What are the most common HEMA injuries anyway, elbow hyper extension?

Sexual organ strain (from all the sex you're having) (for being good at swords)

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

DandyLion posted:

Considering Tallhoffer (European fightmaster of the Renaissance time period) made the following statement :

Hie Facht an das Messer. – Gott wöll vnnsr nit vergessen.

Here they fight with Messers (knives). -- May God remember them.

Even the master's knew a knife fight was a suicide proposition.

The messers in this case are more like swords than stilettos, not really an applicable example.

Also I think everyone in this thread is being unreasonably dire about the difficulty of defending yourself skilfully with hand weapons. There are plenty of examples of such fights ending with clear victors and losers, the most stunning of which usually involve large weapons such as the montante.

I mean, if fights were such a death sentence how would we even develop the techniques to begin with? There is clearly more to the fechtbuchs than guys who have never fought before suddenly sitting down to write comprehensive systems of defence.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Waci posted:

You grossly underestimate the human body.

It's not even that. When Hegel mentioned cuts I don't think they meant exclusively "full force and unimpeded slashes", though those are survivable as well, but rather smaller nicks and flesh wounds that one accrues in the course of a combat.

Your point is valid as well, of course. Jean de Joinville, for example, mentions a companion (who survived) that was stabbed with a spear and blood flowed from him like a wine cask with the bung pulled but continued fighting. Robert Bruce suffered a sword wound over one eye, the future king Henry V received a deep arrow wound to the face, etc.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

DandyLion posted:

Fair enough, they were in fact generally closer to short 1 handed swords than modern knives. Still, why would Tallhoffer say something like that and not similar remarks for the rest of his 1 handed sword material? Genuinely curious.

Without strong corroboration from a similar source there is no way to know for sure. It could be that grossemessers are generally associated with peasants and thus the fighters are implicitly unskilled. Could be that it was seen as a more vicious weapon, or maybe that because the men in the plate in question fight without shields (which may again relate to them not being professionals) they are more likely to both receive grievous injury. Could be any combination of those, or something I haven't considered.

My point is you cant draw strong conclusions about weapons of substantially different physical properties based on a comment with very little context. A 2 lb grossemesser is not going to behave the same as a <1 lb dagger or knife, and would not have been used the same.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

So hey any of y'all seen this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLTcVJGMBkQ

Anybody familiar enough with tulwar or other South Asian martial arts to tell whether he's full of poo poo? because it seems like he is but idk for sure.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

thewireguy posted:

I had a really bad week and asked the instructor/sense i if he would defend while I flailed around like an idiot to work off my aggression, but he said I had to be there 6 months before I could do that. :( I suppose it is frowned upon to hack away at punching bags too.

What you want is a pell, which is basically a log sunk vertically into the ground. Good luck!

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

dupersaurus posted:

My dearly loved neon yellow Balestras have finally bit the dust. I'd get another pair, but do any of you guys have experience with cheaper options? I'm particularly looking at the cheaper Nikes. Adidas historically run too narrow for me, and I'm not sure I have faith in the AF shoes.


I've had to red card this one guy multiple times for grabbing his opponent's foil with his off-hand.

Jesucristo you ref an awful sport

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

dupersaurus posted:

No, he's just a moron.

HEY GAL posted:

he meant that at some point in history, fencing changed from a thing where you are encouraged to grab a dude's sword and punch him in the head (good) to one where you are penalized for it (bad)

This is correct, though not "encouraged" in a general sense, just encouraged under the right circumstances.


thewireguy posted:

I want a shield bad. I read a book, fiction, not a manual or anything, where the hero was instructed to put the shield in his dominant hand so that he would focus on defense first. I thought that was profound.

That doesn't make any sense to me. The dominant hand is your weapon hand, so really it would just make him less effective and/or teach him ambidexterity maybe?


Rabhadh posted:

I'm obvs not an expert here but I would have assumed that if you treat your shield as a purely defensive thing you're wasting a load of potential

This is correct. I.33 shows striking with the buckler, and Stephen Hand has shown a pretty good interpretation of attacking with a centre-gripped shield, some of which probably translates over into the flatter kite shapes and other strapped forms.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52ykRz95JRU

HEMA form video by Dustin Reagan (winner of the Longpoint 2015 open longsword tournament, and tournament champion)

are these guys really skinny or are their masks throwing off my sense of proportion

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Crazy Achmed posted:

My sabre blade finally broke :rip: I'm kind of surprised at the variance in price considering how simple they are compared to foil/epee (and no shenanigans like the sr71 or flickmaster). Are there any of should beeline for/avoid like the plague?

You should get this.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

BirdOfPlay posted:

That's, uhh, not tournament legal.

It's a joke dude. crazy achmed does olympic fencing and would probably hurt himself picking that up lol

quote:

Lastly, the curve of the blade is too much and goes with the cutting edge, not against.

what does this even mean

ImplicitAssembler posted:

That was not fair linking that site!!!

;)

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad


Don't worry dude I'm gonna drop a thou or so on a katzbalger and sheath in a few months (many months?)

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Smoking Crow posted:

I just fenced this girl who, without fail, would put her free hand on her stomach whenever my foil got anywhere close to her. I told her to quit and I still beat her, but what should I do to make her stop next time

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

https://imgur.com/a/XVnx6
I have too many swords. Not pictured: My feder, single sticks, daggers, and my empty bank account.

why so many longswords?

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

dupersaurus posted:

Seriously, fencers don't need arms, do 10 squats.

This is extremely good advice if you want things like "using silverware" or "unlocking a door" to be a constant struggle.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

Don't suspend training with push ups or squats. Get a full match, and then do those things anyway! That would piss me the gently caress off, but I'm also a New Yorker with zero patience.

I agree with this except for the last part gently caress nyc


inscrutable horse posted:

Rather, the instructor (or coach/head honcho/whatever) should point out where you start loving up, and form some sort of exercise where you can unfuck whatever it is that's causing the double hits.

This makes sense for problems of form but for any sport or any other dynamic activity, problems of judgement aren't so easy to create exercises for, it's just practice practice practice, which goes to the point above.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Siivola posted:

Edit: I loving hate their longsword stances, christ. It's like Pflug and Vom Tag had a particularly ugly baby. :cripes:

It's because their padding is so ridiculously thick they straight up can't move their arms correctly. If stabs and wrestling weren't banned things would go differently. it's also part of why the bowling ball technique is viable.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

curious lump posted:

tragically, hema is even worse than sca

In what sense?

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

curious lump posted:

A lot of the stuff the SCA does is gimmicky bullshit, but that is not true. Everything the best fighters (not the people swinging their swords around based on some lovely wood carving) do is perfectly effective in real life.

How many people you seen killed by rapier cuz

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

curious lump posted:

It's pretty obvious what would and would not be fatal - eg, getting a rapier point through your eye. Don't be obtuse.

It's not actually very obvious, no, unless all your bouts end with a rapier through the cerebellum. SCA also practices the lightsabre rule of fencing: you get hit somewhere and that part is unusable. This stands in marked contrast with actual accounts of rapier duels, where even injuries that would eventually prove fatal did not stop the fight. So SCA is not "real life" fighting, and I'll gladly take the instruction of people that use swords to kill over people that use them to play.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

curious lump posted:

I'd say 90% of my bouts end up with a tip on someone's face/heart/lungs

lol no they don't

quote:

Also "I'll gladly take the instruction of people that use swords to kill over people that use them to play." lmao what does this even mean are you literally retarded or something.

Historical manuals were written by people who killed other people with swords. you play pretend and act like it's the same thing.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

curious lump posted:

Lmao look at this guy. First off, I'm not an SCA fencer, but do you think they don't follow the historical masters? They're big into historical fencing, just like HEMA is, they just like to simultaneously dress up at the same time. Trying to talk poo poo but you don't even know what you're talking about? Smdh.

homie historical fencing literally is HEMA. what do you think it stands for?

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

curious lump posted:

They're two separate organizations, but SCA still does historical fencing. They follow historical masters, do historical styles, and read historical rapier treatises. Did you have some idea that they just ran at each other with nerf bats or something? And on another note, how badly do you fight that you find 90% killing accuracy hard to believe? Do you just flail your sword around at the other guy and hope you get a tip cut on him? Do you blindly aim at his gut? Really confused here.

HEMA Alliance and HEMA are different things my dude.

My point re the 90% thing is that rapiers don't kill super quickly. Like there is a rash of duels where both fighters are killed when the rapier becomes popular because although a narrow puncture to most vital organs will kill you, it won't drop you like a stone. Aside from the psychological effect of wounding (shock, etc) there isn't anything stopping the person you're fighting immediately. It's one of the trickier problems to tackle with historical fencing but still worth talking about.

edit: It's not confined to the rapier either, like there is a 16th century case where a dude got his brain laid open with a halberd and still made his way back to camp to get seen to by a surgeon.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 04:05 on May 13, 2016

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

On the other hand, I keep learning that there are many, many fascists in HEMA. Like literal self-proclaimed fascists.

That and/or white supremacy seem pretty common among reenacting generally. I mean, when you get a group of people interested in the past together there will always be a few who like it (or rather, a particular idea of it) a little too much

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Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

Now I'm realizing I probably shouldn't just call someone a fascist until I know 100% for sure

ya think?

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