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dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Ravenfood posted:

Worst, I fence epee.

Black card half the field at random so NACs stop fencing rounds of 256 after the cutoff.

Did you not hear about the proposed FIE changes to non-combativity? Yellow card on the first one in a bout, black card both fencers on the second.

BirdOfPlay posted:

Shrinking NAC's are a vast USFA conspiracy and a bad thing.
- F.net posters

It's been a beautiful couple of weeks for watching f.net. Between NC and Imboden v. Aspermonte, jumping in saber and Tim Moorehouse, so many chances of terrible opinions to be aired.

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dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

IOC allegedly said to the FIE that we're out of the Olympics if noncombarivity happens again

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Getting into reffing via epee wouldn't be terrible if you know epee. Just need to know all the ways you can annul a touch, and judge strip position and toe touches (and don't fall asleep doing it)

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Presumably the thing in London with the Korean woman didn't help.

The conspiracy is that it's a television decision, and to be fair, watching two fencers out of distance for fifteen seconds or not hitting for each other for approx one minute is pretty boring. Although really the problem is that it's occasionally a legit strategy at times.

I did kinda like the idea of someone from fnet to let the fencers just agree to go straight into the priority minute. It's still kinda lovely, but it's at least honest.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Yeah I forgot they went into the sudden death last minute, not a NC priority minute. Either way, epee

Is there really a way to "solve" NC without drastically changing the weapon? It is a perfectly logical way to fence a bout once you've got a lead; you're there to win, not to put on a good show. Not that a major rule change is something that should never happen, but you need more than ten months lead time to do it. Going nuclear with black cards may actually be the safest thing to do, then seriously study it for the next quad.

Crazy Achmed posted:

As for me, I'm a bit slow and sometimes have trouble recognising more complex actions - at least reffing foil and sabre, anyway. Epee would hopefully be easier from that point of view, I hope... The other thing, though, is more perception and politics: I don't pretend to be good enough to compete on a serious level despite having fenced for a long time, high school kids will wreck my poo poo. I get the feeling that I won't be taken seriously unless I pull finger and improve my own fencing a lot first.

Just like a good coach doesn't have to be a good fencer, neither does a good ref. Strip experience might help you understand the flow of actions, but reffing is a skill in itself, and the best way to get better at it is to do it. Watch others ref and figure out why they're calling what they are, ref all you can at practice, break everything down (Who attacked first? Was there a parry? Was there a repost? etc.), always make a call and accept the grief if the fencers disagree, and if you really don't know, ask the guys on the strip what they think happened.

And read the rule book.

Everybody should read the rulebook.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

You don't need x-change if you don't need to change bibs, but definitely go for the cheap contour fit, it's rad.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

LP has a HEMA range, but I don't know if it's anything more than their FIE stuff painted black

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Siivola posted:

Leon Paul's apparently developing a stronger HEMA-specific mask, but it's not available yet. Also probably doesn't come in pink.

Spray painting your mask is a well-established tradition.

Siivola posted:

One issue I'm having with the loaners is that my head seems to be in the large end of size small, which means that all our loaners wobble a bit. Are mask sizes at all consistent across brands?

Nope. AF runs bigger than LP. Can't speak for others.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

There's nothing wrong with epee

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Why do we bother fencing when everything's so terribly broken?

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Crazy Achmed posted:

Seriously though, aren't there some relatively catch-all clauses in the rules about refusal to fence your opponent and general unsportsmanlike behaviour? Or are they too strictly interpreted to apply in this sort of case?

For refusing to fence your opponent, there's t.85.1. The case study for this is how Iranian fencers often refuse to fence Israelis.

USAF Rulebook, t.85.1 posted:

No fencer (individual or team) may take part in an official competition if he refuses to fence against any other fencer whatsoever (individual or team) correctly entered in the event. Should this rule be broken, the penalties specified for offenses of the 4th group will be applied

There's colluding with your opponent (group 4 black), or not making an honest effort to fence (group 3 red). Doesn't count, though, since they are logically fencing.

USAF Rulebook, t.87.1 posted:

The competitors must fence faithfully and strictly according to the rules laid down in these Rules. All breaches of these rules will incur the penalties laid down hereinafter

USAF Rulebook, t.88 posted:

Competitors must fence to their utmost ability in a sportsmanlike manner until the end of the competition in order to obtain the best possible classification, without giving away touches or seeking to be favored by being given touches by anyone

There's "anti-sporting behavior" which is vaguely defined, but with the context it's put in, again it doesn't really apply

USAF Rulebook, t.87.2 posted:

All bouts must preserve the character of a courteous and frank encounter. All irregular actions (flèche attack which finishes with a collision jostling the opponent, disorderly fencing, irregular movements on the strip, touches achieved with violence, blows struck with the guard, touches made during or after a fall) or anti-sporting behaviorare strictly forbidden (cf. t.114–t.120). Should such an offense occur, any touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled

USAF Rulebook, t.87.3 posted:

a)Before the beginning of each bout, the two fencers must perform a fencer’s salute to their opponent, to the Referee and to the spectators. Equally, when the final touch has been scored, the bout has not ended until the two fencers have saluted each other, the Referee and the spectators: to this end, they must remain still while the Referee is making his decision; when he has given his decision, they must return to their on guard line, perform a fencer’s salute and shake hands with their opponent. If either or both of the two fencers refuse to comply with these rules, the Referee will penalize him/them as specific for offenses of the 4th group (cf. t.114, t.119, t.120).

b) During or after a bout, even if the fencer has already left the strip, any act against the spirit of sportsmanship such as violently or dangerously throwing one’s mask (or any other piece of equipment) will be penalized as specified in Article t.119 (cf.t.82.1, 2and 3)

Now what's interesting to ponder is what Yakamenko did recently with intentionally dropping his weapon to stop a strong attack. Depending on who you ask, it's either delaying the bout or disorderly fencing (group 1 yellow, what he got), dishonest fencing (group 3 red, fnet favorite's), or maybe anti-sporting behavior (the rare group 3 yellow, but again, the rule's context).

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

As a foilist that sometimes moonlights as a sabreur, hooray for more time to parry!

BirdOfPlay posted:

Craig of F.net has an early report out about the rule changes No black cards for non-combativity, but the sabre changes will be attempted. Also, Vet events are still free, while everyone else has to pay more.

The distance change is, by far, the stupidest of the bunch. Sabreurs will now start with their back front on the line, instead of front foot. Where will the front foot go, who knows?

I would think about as far away from the guard line as the back foot used to be. That'll put the fencers at around restart distance from each other (always funny trying to restart sabreurs from some place other than the guard lines), although I wonder if two fencers could be tall enough to actually be closer than restart distance.

I'm sure exploits are there to find, but they'd have to grapple with t.17.11 saying "The fencers must come on guard correctly and remain completely still until the command “Fence” is given by the Referee" (my emphasis). What "come on guard correctly" means is left to the user's imagination, but you'd have to convince the ref of it.

FIE Congress posted:

The second security device on the mask should now be compulsory as of Jan. 1 2016

I assume this refers to the bib strap they made LP put on contour fit masks?

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Foil is 250ms, right? I'm starting to wonder how much difference 50 actually makes, but I don't have a sense for saber timing other than "well that would have worked in foil". What would be locked out by 120 that wouldn't by 170? Is there a sense that maybe counters and remises have become too powerful, so needed to be nerfed a little?

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Crazy Achmed posted:

My sabre blade finally broke I'm kind of surprised at the variance in price considering how simple they are compared to foil/epee (and no shenanigans like the sr71 or flickmaster). Are there any of should beeline for/avoid like the plague?

My impression was to just buy cheap blades and treat them as expendable, but I'm just a foil fencer so I don't know what I'm talking about

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

If you're being strict constructionist about it, the rules do say PIL has to threaten valid target. Would like to hear that guy's thoughts about hidden blade attacks and flicks.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

BirdOfPlay posted:

bad habits

"I just took the parry, let me take my time to make this riposte..."

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

I've heard it argued that saber is better for younger kids since they don't have much fine motor control, and saber doesn't rely on that as much as foil does. You can get them moving and thinking like fencers before they're ready to work on detailed hand work.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

ScratchAndSniff posted:

Anyone who says this has way more faith in little kids than I do. Kids are assholes who go out of their way to hurt each other. At least with foil, it's sort of hard for the kids to hurt each other and still get points. With saber, the line between "fencing correctly" and being an rear end in a top hat is a bit more fuzzy, I don't let anyone bout saber until I think aren't an idiot.

Maybe my club just gets a bunch of good kids and/or quickly weeds out the bad ones, but my experience has been opposite of that. The newbies are mostly worried about not getting hit themselves (reaching forward to cut while leaning backwards as far as they can). It might get a little trickier with boys and puberty, but that's not a saber-specific problem.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

We start Monday practice with:
* 5min plank, a mix of: standard, forearm, and sides. Can split up if needed, we usually do 2x2:30, but goal is to get everyone to 5min straight.
* 2min reverse plank, with ~30sec of each leg extended to the side. Started at 1min and have been working up.
* 2min broken table, with ~30sec of each leg extended forward.
* 5min wall sit. Working up to 5min straight, we started at 5x1min, now usually something like 2:30-1:30-1.

Wednesday starts with an active warmup, depending on how many people are there. Sometimes it's low-key like some coordination exercises with beanbags, sometimes traditional warmup stuff, and sometimes it's rousing games of cone game.

On Saturdays I go to a boot camp run at the club, focused pretty heavily on plyometrics, core, and legs. There's a few dozen stations we cycle through; only one is arm-only (pull ups), a few with dumb bells working the whole body, lots of squats, push-ups, lunges etc. I could try to remember a big list of the stations if you want.

On my own, I do a lot of biking when the weather's cooperating. I'm also trying to get into the habit of a daily push up and squat regime.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Few things are as unexpectedly painful as being hit by a tip on the middle of a flexed bicep.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Verisimilidude posted:

He says he still prefers it over his new one because of how lightweight and comfortable it was.

I've been using LP masks for a few years now, and using anything more traditionally padded is practically claustrophobic

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Yeah go German tip. I like extra since it hides the screws, but v2 is good too. If you just started an fie blade might be more than you need. The absolute blades are cheap enough to be considered expendable until you get to a point where you'd know the difference.

If you're close to a big tournament with vendors attending, trying out blades in person is always nice.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Remember: if a covering causes a touch correctly given to register as off target, you still get the point.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

BirdOfPlay posted:

I have never heard of that rule being applied and have only heard guidance of "don't do it." Which, of course, makes sense, this is the only way a ref is allowed to award a touch not registered by the box.

Yeah I can't see myself calling that without judges or replay.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

10 Beers posted:

A friend just sent me this. I don't know how accurate itnis, but it's pretty neat to watch.

https://youtu.be/leOP7rWwBpw

Epeeists were doing things, myth busted

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Crazy Achmed posted:

Maybe it's my eyes but Ota's footage looks smoother than what I'm used to seeing. Or do the refs get a better quality feed than the audience?
They should still fire the dumb camera angle guy, I just watched the Seoul sabre GP semis/finals and I'm sure there was at least one point that I didn't get to see because they were too busy doing a slow-mo replay of someone's feet.

They probably do, but the Ota video also gets the benefit of being shot in a professional studio with nice things like planned lighting and video post-processing. Plus I don't think they always have control of the video, iirc they've said before they've used a host's feed before if someone else is shooting it.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

HEMA seems to be a pretty common break activity at international events, in Europe at least. And sometimes it's good.

We were laughing pretty hard at the music selection on the club's facebook page. I may have made a comment about 90s adventure game soundtracks.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Siivola posted:

...run out of patience for poo poo like "five pushups for every double hit".

Seriously, fencers don't need arms, do 10 squats.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

ImplicitAssembler posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=733ITpn6lG4

Fencing & Red Bull?
I respect his skill, but certainly not his character.

There's only one MCW video that ever needs to be posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvQKvF33ELk

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Crazy Achmed posted:

At risk of reigniting the SCA vs HEMA flamewar, SCA sounds interesting but seems like it could really benefit from stricter rules and ditching the honour system for something like kendo reffing.

On the subject of having to hit people hard enough to score a point, has anyone heard anything more about the proposal to bring back accelerometers to sabre? I haven't really been keeping up with that stuff, but I did have a go at the new starting positions (back foot on the en garde line) a couple of weeks back. poo poo is weird being so close to the other person, I don't think it's necessarily worse, but I don't see how it's supposed to significantly reduce simultaneous attacks from the get-go. Instead of being a step-lunge away from your opponent you're now just a lunge away - surely this would just change the "both fencers step-lunge at each other and the ref calls simultaneous" to "both fencers lunge at each other and the ref calls simultaneous"?
Someone who actually knows poo poo about sabre please explain this one to me.

Also, I went to see Iron Maiden not long ago, Dickinson is still on form and making full use of those lunge muscles/flexibility.

I think the idea is that it makes the call simpler and less controversial; it's easier for the ref to make a call about someone not off the line quick enough than to call someone for a small "mistake" in their preparation. Thus makes the "go for simul, hope for an error" tactic less appealing. I suppose it could also make slow/no attacks off the line more viable since you won't be conceding an advance or two of momentum to your opponent.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

I probably shouldn't couch it so much as a ref thing. With as tightly as saber is called, it's so easy to make an error in preparation off the line in an advance lunge, which gives rise to the tactic of simuling until one of you makes a mistake or gives up. I'm going to attack you and crush you, because if you hesitate I win, and if you parry me I'm going to lock you out with the remise. But it's harder to make a mistake off the line when it's just a lunge (and as a side effect, the mistakes you make stand out more), so it's harder to milk simul mistakes for points.

Also remember that this is coming with an increase in the lockout times, which should make parrying more powerful, also disincentivizing the fright train attack.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Crazy Achmed posted:

Oh man, I might have to actually learn more sabre beyond the freight train attack, that's currently pretty much my only move.

One of my favorite things to do as a foilist is to occasionally don the hero's weapon and blow the minds of the kids that know no other.

What was that thing you were doing?

Parrying?

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Crazy Achmed posted:

The other thing I need to strive towards is remembering to move my feet and not just lock up and rely on bladework. Multitasking is hard

This is essentially a distance problem. Digging in and taking the parry isn't a problem in itself, the problem is that you're letting your opponent get close enough so that when they attack all you can do is panic parry and hope that they screw up. Keep the distance longer from the start, and do lots and lots of drills where parrying isn't an option so you have to beat the attack by distance alone. One drill that comes to mind (and there are many) is the advance lunge drill: two fencers, each with a weapon (bonus points for having pool noodles), no parrying, and you can only hit with an advance lunge. Repeat until your legs fall off then bump it up to double advance lunge.

Also make sure that you keep your weight over your legs and your knees bent. If your hips or your balance is getting off, then it's going to seriously hamper your ability to get away in the first place.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

At least we're not epeeists!

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Siivola posted:

I'm actually curious of the foil precisely because of the target and priority rules, because they sound like stuff that would build good habits – namely, respecting the opponent's blade and targeting the properly vital bits. I'm a bit less interested in épée, because while it's actually pretty neat to watch as a sport, I've understood it simulates duels to first blood and I'm not really into those. I've seen a couple of historical videos and... Dueling like that is not very sexy, y'know?

If I had a dollar for every time I got a point while being hit by my opponent... I wouldn't be rich but I'd have a nice lunch money fund. If you try to fence foil without ever getting hit and only hitting killing blows, you're going to be a very frustrated foil fencer.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

curious lump posted:

what the gently caress is this poo poo

Speaking from a sport foil perspective, if I notice someone's only looking for the riposte, then immediately I know that: 1) I have more power to control the distance since I'm not worried about being countered or attack-in-prepped, and 2) I'm looking for compound attacks. Not that it means it's going to be easy, but being able to ignore multiple variables significantly reduces the complexity for me the attacker. Throwing in just an occasional attack or counter, even if not successful, makes me think a lot carefully about #1.

That said, there's a huge difference between being defensive and being passive. You can fight over distance and push me around without ever attacking. Some people have parries that are Just That Good, but I'd say (at least among peers) more often than not successful parrying is about distance rather than blade skill.

"Fear" might be too strong a word, but the sentiment is valid.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Siivola posted:

To go on a tangent, would sabre be more or less incomprehensible to watch without priority?

It's easy to comprehend infinite double touches off the line

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

BirdOfPlay posted:

And yes, the professional fencing league is a ridiculous beast, I love how they devote a section to their website noting how this league has no tie to that "other" league. Why the gently caress is fencing so petty?

From what I understand, the last professional league attempt failed in a glorious flame of corruption and fiscal catastrophe. Distancing from it isn't being petty, it's trying to not be associated with a still-flaming pit of rotting poo poo.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Yeah I think that's a fairly well documented experience. I'm healing off a back problem and it's forced me to face my distance demons and encouraged small footwork. Heard a similar story about fencing extra good in a tournament with a bum ankle.

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dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Were any of you guys in/around the venue Thursday night?

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