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BirdOfPlay posted:Huh, I know a guy showed up using one at an old club of mine a while back. He had to switch to a legal grip when he started going to USFA tourneys, but he was using an electric blade with it. I'll have to do some digging and see what he was using. Speaking of (il)legal grips, I nearly got dinged one time for having too much tape on my french grip. I had it bulked up with layers of duct tape and sports tape to the point where it was molding ridges around where I gripped it. Plus it was ugly as hell, which I think is also a factor in determining the legality of tape on a grip. If you tape your french, make sure it's neat. I was fairly new to the tournament scene (and it was a small local tournament) so I the ref gave me a friendly warning instead of actually carding me for bad equipment. I also have a grip that I call 'slimer' because the glue from the tape has seeped out on to the grip. It's really gross if you grab it with your bare hand, but the interaction between the glove and the glue is amazing for grippiness. It's like pine tar on a baseball bat.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:25
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Arms may be long, but blades are the same length so you always have the same distance to cover to reach their hand. Hand hits are the best hits.
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Feb 6, 2015 17:50
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If you don't start your attack with your arm you will telegraph your action to your opponent and they will not only be able to react with an effective counter-attack but you're also collapsing the distance with your weapon in a non-threatening position. The defending fencer only has to extend their arm in response to your foot motion. Of course, I speak in terms of epee and modern sport. Foil and sabre (especially) can kinda start their attacks with their feet. Technically not since the attack starts with the forward motion of the blade constituting an attack, but the blade doesn't have to be pointed at anything in particular, just "extending" towards your opponent. What this gets you is foilists making incredibly slow and steady extensions with their arms while advancing madly with their feet maintaining right of way until they've collapsed the distance between themselves and their opponent and are in prime striking position.
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Feb 10, 2015 02:02
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Judging, as long as it's not excessive, kept brief and they don't ignore me then they can celebrate. I will and have carded fencers for being disruptive. When fencing, I feel better when I keep things cool on the strip. After a touch I go straight back to the en-garde line. I like to think it unnerves my opponent that I don't celebrate an important touch but just treat it like it was my expected outcome. That may or may not be true, but it keeps me calm and focused. After one particular bout though that qualified me for nationals I stepped outside and shouted a bunch. 
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Feb 10, 2015 03:44
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Also, a fast hit will connect while a slow one will be parried or avoided. Move the fast things first (i.e. hand, sword) and you will be able to get your attack in before your opponent can react. At 7min he even explains the two different kinds of timing. Paraphrasing, stepping then striking can deliver a stronger blow, which is good for an executioner, but initiating the strike from the hand is a better tactic in combat. You MUST hit your opponent before they can respond, leading with the hand accomplishes this. Does this mean that the strike is not the most powerful? Yes, of course, but it will be powerful enough. It's a sword, so over-committing and over-powering the strike is definitely something that you can do. It's only 750g of weight needed to depress the tip of a modern epee, easily achieved with a relatively light thrust. Historically I'm sure it doesn't take much more than that to pierce skin and be lethal and what good is a powerful strike if it doesn't land? Better to strike your opponent with the right amount of force and maintain the ability to recover and defend yourself from a counter attack. Duels ended as often as not when blood was drawn so making that touch, even if it's not lethal, could satisfy the duellists. And they were plenty lethal. I anticipate the question of "What if your opponent is wearing armor?" Well, what if he is? Fencing wasn't an armored affair, so tactics designed for unarmored dueling aren't appropriate to apply against an armored opponent. And why are we talking about historical stuff? This is modern sport fencing! Absolutely move the hand first! Hell, I get lots of mileage out of retreating while striking. The initial forward preparation draws a counterattack or an attack on prep from my opponent, which then opens an opportunity to touch their arm or hand as I retreat. It's really elegant and it can be one of those frustrating things for people when they're POSITIVE that they had you dead except for that lucky arm touch on their way in. It is, in fact, engineered to convince them to attack into a retreat leaving them out of distance and out of time. Now, the number of times when I've misjudged that distance and was just a little TOO close...
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Feb 10, 2015 21:41
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Ah, right. I didn't watch that video. Can't really say anything about the non-rapier weapons, but the rapier stuff looks like hot garbage. Then again, I kinda put that up that they're doing a demo and fooling around more than a little bit. They never change lines, feint, beat or use any sort of deception or change tempo. The footwork is exceedingly sloppy. Probably because they're doing a demo and they aren't really worrying about it. Still, some of those weird backsteps and crossover steps are odd, I don't really understand why they're doing it. They're way too close together and at one point hang out within easy striking distance of each other and don't do anything. Nothing! Not even a little poke! They also seem weirdly interested in binding everything, all the time. Just hit the guy!
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Feb 10, 2015 22:05
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Zeitgueist posted:I don't know whether they were loving around or not, but the skinny guy is fairly well known in rapier competition, but is far more known for teaching from Fiore's 15th century manual which covers a bunch of different types of fighting and footwork, but definitely includes passing steps(German footwork does as well, they're fairly similar in many respects) and is mainly a longsword book for many folks. As I suggested, they might have some sparring in other videos if you're looking for a more accurate representation of a fight. Cool beans. Y'all bring the historical stuff, and some modern stuff'll get posted too. I figure that there's a reason for the crossovers and such, I just have no idea what those reasons are and I only really have an eye for modern footwork. So. Some modern stuff! This youtube guy posts TONS of fencing videos and has a subset with commentaries. My favorite one is the Beijing Olympics gold medal bout between Jeannet and Tagliariol. Fantastic bout, and it's fun to watch. Unfortunately the IOC took down the first half, but here's the second. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoESlHlWxC8 I have a love/hate relationship towards Jeannet. On one hand, he's kind of a diva rear end in a top hat. On the other, he's a posted french-gripper, which I am, so I watch him to see how things are supposed to be done.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:29
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ScratchAndSniff posted:All this talk about realism reminds me of a woman I once trained with who legitimately thought that her fencing experience translated into knife-fighting, and she always carried around a knife "just in case." She swore that she could draw her knife fast enough to fight off any mugger who had a gun. If you had a stick then you'd be probably pretty capable of poking them in the eye. And I guess it'd be helpful if the other person was trying to hit you with a stick too. Or you both had swords because you're in Renaissance Italy. No, fencing is not a useful self-defense skill. I mean, don't not try to use something if your life is on the line but anyone going in thinking that fencing will directly get them out of a scrape is gonna lose. You'll probably be in good shape so you can run away better. Jesus, I can see in my head a bunch of knucklehead fencers walking around with canes so they can play at Errol Flynn with muggers. Regarding the sword-and-buckler fencing mentioned earlier, that was a legitimate and popular style of combat AND sport in its time. It died out because dueling changed and popularity of single-sword styles blossomed. Whether or not it was more effective is immaterial I think. Guns and dueling coexisted and people still threw down plenty with swords. It's much older, and modern sport fencing is based off of what was basically the last evolution of dueling, and evolved itself quite a long way since. I could see how it could be done with modern electric scoring equipment. A conductive plate held in the off-hand so that hits against it wouldn't register.
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Feb 18, 2015 16:01
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It's only one illustration, there's no way it's a static position. Block, maybe get a little cut, but keep on going to the next action. No pause. There's text too, that might explain what's going on. edit: People totally do leave their sword out after a lunge though! It's the craziest thing, but the thinking is roughly "Look at this lunge! This is a drat fine lunge. I'm going to stand here in this lunge for a second so I can admire it." and then they get hit because they're not recovering. I've done it, and I've taken advantage of it. That, or they've over-comitted and physically can't pull back quickly enough. Either way, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just stab them if you've got their blade under control. Showing off I guess. Actually, it probably is showing off. People LOVE to show off.
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Feb 18, 2015 17:17
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BirdOfPlay posted:They're decent enough gloves. If you do more than just sabre, I'd recommend getting a manchate (cuff) over a sabre glove. Really though, if you intended to compete in a weapon it pays to get the equipment designed for it. Then again, I fence epee which is pretty much the flannel-wearing rednecks of the fencing world. Foilists are hipsters and sabreuers are the local community theater.
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Feb 23, 2015 16:54
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lots
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Mar 4, 2015 01:14
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Historically accurate I would presume to mean that it follows closely to the techniques and styles that were used during the height of the rapier's popularity. I don't know much about rapier so I can't really speak for its techniques but I can speak to olympic fencing. Olympic fencing is first and foremost a sport. That means that it's concerned with using techniques that work best, right now, within the equipment used and competition format. There's no concern for historical accuracy, since history isn't important, winning is. And since exploiting edge cases and pushing the envelope allows you to squeeze out the extra point over your competitors it's the fencers who can push that extra little bit who win tournaments. Don't get me wrong, it takes a solid foundation in the basics to get there, but it's the last little bit that can eke out a victory like fleche'ing into your opponent repeatedly to push a series of double touches when you're one point ahead (got to the round of 8 over a guy with a really good parry that way. I got up one, and then doubled him out by provoking counters by charging for like, 5 touches in a row). So what if your opponent got a point, it's the first to 15 to win that counts. That why you see things like the foil flick having been so popular because it scores points legitimately within the rules however weird and frustrating it is for the competitors. Epee seems suicidal because the use of the counterattack allows competitors to score points off their opponent's attack by making a touch on the hand or arm a half-second before their opponent's touch lands on their torso. Deadly stupid historically, but the counterattacker's touch on the forearm registered first so they win the point. Olympic and historical fencing are different in goal and execution, but both are fun and great to do and share a common ancestor. If you like the idea of engaging in a competition to see who is the stronger, faster, smarter, cannier, cleverer fencer then olympic fencing is for you. If you want to relive the artistry, technique, and history of dueling while resurrecting and preserving a massively influential art the historical fencing will scratch that itch.
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Mar 4, 2015 17:14
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Eh, the ring thing is a good exercise for point control. The pig stabbing part really shows why those swords (and duels) were so lethal. It really did not take much effort to skewer it deeply, you did not have to be a big strong person to be a duelist. The other knife was... there. You could catch your opponent by surprise since they'd be very surprised at you throwing your loving sword away.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:43
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:this is true for any unarmored fighting with swords though, even round-tipped Type Xs. Truth, there's a reason plastrons exist.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:18
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For foil or saber there are no good calls. It's all subjective, and fencers can be the biggest drama queens over a call they think should have gone the other way. The best defense on that is to stand your ground and stand by your call, even if it was dodgey. Then again, I'm a super-lovely foil ref and don't even talk to me about saber. Epee though, is pretty easy. No right of way to worry about, so you're mostly concerned about making sure the fencers maintain their position on strip and keeping an eye out for rule violations. Your vision should be focused on their feet. Imagine a square that covers the front foot of either fencer and goes up as high as their guard. Focus on that area and watch for them either stepping off the strip or in the event of a fleche noting when the attacking fencer has passed the other. I also keep an eye out for little things like touching the body cord during the bout, touching their weapon with the off-hand, any signals that fencer needs to stop (for whatever reason, re-tying their shoe for example), equipment failures like a body cord coming unplugged or a blade improperly bent. Fairly recently you also need to keep an eye on non-combativity rules. They're annoying but not too hard to keep track of. You'll know when you need to keep an eye on it right away in a bout. But as far as the action goes the fencers are left to their own devices while the referee calls out the touches as they occur and manages the pacing of the bout. There are thankfully few hard calls to make refereeing epee and mostly they come down to deciding when to stop the action for whatever reason. Remember, the action stops when the referee decides it stops, not when the command "Halt!" comes out of their mouth, so if you see something and decide that the action must stop now then focus on making the fencers stop and don't worry about their actions. It's better to stop the action and be wrong then to allow it to continue with something wrong or unsafe. Practice ref'ing on small local tournaments to build confidence and get the jumpiness out of your system. I made a good number of calls like that, but once you get into the rhythm and get comfortable with how a bout goes you won't make very many mistakes. Hell, one (or two) time(s) I covered up a mistaken call for 'halt' by saying that I thought I saw a hit land that should have registered but didn't. Fencer, let me check your weapon. Ah, it works! Good, I'd hate for you to fence with a broken waepon. En garde please.
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Mar 16, 2015 17:57
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What 0:40 in slow-mo doesn't show is the prep he does just before the attack. It's actually a pretty interesting exchange and he got lucky as hell to catch the redoublement on his opponents knee. He does a quick little feint just before launching his lunge. That's the prep. His opponent doesn't bite on it, or at least not hard enough to mess up his parry. L-G (Red) goes for the quick six parry, nothing there so throws down the eight to stop P's (Green's) lunge. The lunge itself is picture perfect, it's actually a great example of how everything needs to occur at the proper time and in time. The arm is fully extended BEFORE the foot lands and the attack is on-target and not giving his opponent an opportunity to counter. It looks like the feet are extending first because P retracted his arm slightly after his feint but he started his attack before the feet got moving. It's a complex action that occurred in two-time. Anyway, LG's parry is panicked and way too large making it impossible for him to riposte in time before P is able to tag him on the leg. An object lesson on keeping your parries small and why it's a good idea to retreat on the parry. The next action I'm surprised you didn't remark on, it's actually a fantastic representation of what we're all talking about with the hand leading the action. 1:08 has Red launch a beat-attack fleche. Just before he launches he's hunting for his opponent's blade. Once he's got it, he extends his arm to make the beat and then follows through with the fleche. Prior to the extension he hasn't committed to the attack yet, but as soon as his arm goes out to make the beat his body begins moving forward. The timing on this is almost simultaneous, but the beginning of the beat starts before his body commits and his beat lands as his feet are into their movement. 1:45 is cool simply because it's mind games with Green catching Red being jumpy and willing to parry any old attack that comes his way. It's actually a neat usage of the OPPOSITE of what you're supposed to do, telegraphing his intention so that his opponent parries the obvious attack then launching in right after he parries air. However, it's not very illustrative. 2:11 is another great example of leading with the hand. Actually, this one is the best illustration since you can plainly see how if he hadn't initiated his attack with his weapon then he would have been too slow in bringing it up to strike and vulnerable to his opponent's counterattack. The action begin's with Red's feint low which causes his opponent to drop his tip and spoil a counter. Green attempts to parry-riposte but is too late. Red's tip is already there before he can react. If Red had begun the action by moving his feet first while his weapon was not up and engaged then two things would have happened. First he would have been feinting too late. Instead of dropping his tip in response to what he THOUGHT would have been a low-line attack and an easy parry-riposte Green would have seen his opponent step into attack range and all he would have had to do was extend his arm. Feint or not, now Red is attempting to fleche not into a too-late parry but an extended weapon. Point for Green. Second, he would be out of proper distance. He could start his foot action further away so he's not crowded in when he begins his arm extension, but now Red must deal with Green's weapon. Green has ample time and proper position now to respond to whatever action Red will take, Red no longer has control of the situation. Note that Green responds to Red's reaction. Just like in the previous exchange at 1:45, if you predict your opponents reaction then you can score a point. Green got Red to parry garbage and won a point. Here, Red gets Green to drop his tip to a low feint before changing lines during his extension and launching his attack. That tiny little twitch cost Green a successful counter. Thing is you keep talking about power and speed, when you don't really need power. You need a little, but not so much that you must start from the hips etc. to make a successful attack. After all, you're fencing with a sword not punching with a fist. Often as not you'll touch your opponent on the retreat when power is going in the opposite direction but if you have your weapon in the proper position then you've achieved a successful (counter)attack. What moving the hand first gets you is control. You threaten your opponent, forcing them to respond to the point directed at them and the impending attack and therefore controlling somewhat what they will do next. They'll either parry, counterattack, or evade. What they won't do is ignore the threat, they WILL react. If they don't react, hit them. Finally, and what these two fencers ably demonstrate is that the actions aren't independent of each other. Even though the hand leads, it's not a situation where the one completes its motion before the next one starts. The hand starts a fraction of a second in order to achieve superior position and control, while the feet provide motive power and ALL ELEMENTS finish at the same time. Look at that first lunge, his arm is fully extended when his feet land. The two fleches similarly are coordinated in their timing of hand-foot motion. The weapon starts moving to initiate the attack and the motion of the feet, weapon, and body are complete simultaneously as the point is scored. Attack with the hand, defend with the feet. And yeah, whoever said that people who attack with their feet are free points is totally right on. I feel a little bad for them since they're still trying to coordinate their actions, but the bouts are over quick as every advance they make is met with an extended weapon to counter their attack. Parry? Bind? Just disengage and lunge in time. edit: 4:33 is when Green got wise to Red's feint low fleche! Red does the same thing, but this time clearly expecting the counter. Red's weapon goes low, drawing the counter. He's holding back just long enough to bring his weapon up to oppose his opponent's blade and then commits and scores a point. Beautiful. Excellent planning.
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Mar 17, 2015 23:06
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BirdOfPlay has good advice and you should listen to him. Well, maybe not the ignore me part. Also, (like BoP says) find an experienced ref who will be willing to mentor and guide you. You can shadow them while they ref and they can explain why they made the call they did, you can co-ref, and they can shadow you and guide. There's a textbook inasmuch as it's the USFA rulebook, and you need to know the current rules. It has rules for refs too. I would disagree that there's no curriculum. No formal classes I don't think. There are plenty of workshops, retreats, seminars, and there's a certification test separate for each weapon so there's definitely a methodology behind it. It is, though, something where there's more than a couple good ways to go about learning the skill and plenty of information and opinions out there to guide you along.
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Mar 18, 2015 21:32
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Don't forget deadlifts and back/core exercises too! I destroyed my muscles in a tournament once because I wasn't quite fit enough and I was doing lots and lots of low line actions. My back HURT. BoP, what's your way of doing foil/sabre refereeing? I'm trying to get better at them and so far the best I can do is try to visually catch when someone starts the action and hope hope that I spot their opponents parry. I always feel like I throw out a lot of points calling it a simultaneous action. I'm also only an epee fencer really so I don't have the feel of the action from the inside.
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Mar 24, 2015 14:13
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Yeah, it won't kill you but a nasty cut on the face or head ain't doing anyone any favors. It's definitely not in the 'advantageous situation' column.
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Mar 24, 2015 18:13
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I was a bit, and as I got more fatigued my form got worse and I started slouching and folding over more and more. If I had been in better shape I wouldn't have gotten as tired as quickly and would have kept good form longer. And by low, I mean I was attacking people's feet a LOT. I had been working on developing a foot-attack feint and was a little tunnel-visioned on that one particular family of attacks. Since then it's improved a bunch, so it's more of a low-line feint to start off a complex action. Still, gotta tag them on the toe every now and then to keep them honest.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:39
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It always amazes me how clean and precise things like that are in bone. Maybe that's a macabre thing to say. It's still pretty incredible. Speaking of jostling, there are some less-than-proper things that I've done in the heat of a bout. One guy I was fencing with was a very aggressive fleche'er (however you pluralize that) and would just not stop running into me. For the most part I just stood there. That's what I usually do anyway. If someone launches a fleche and I'm flat footed but I somehow manage to catch their blade I'll bend my knees a bit and plant it. Probably not the most effective thing but it is funny when they bounce off of you and body contact does stop the action. Anyway. So this guy is charging, charging, charging and I'm keeping myself from getting hit for the most part but the second or third time he had run into me I was bracing for the impact so as he comes in I bend my knees a bit and kinda... pop my butt out as he passes by giving him a bit of a hip check. He goes tumbling down and comes up looking at the ref for a card. The ref says "be more careful with your body contact." I thought it was funny. He kept on doing what he was doing, I didn't hip check him again, I think I ended the bout doubling him out. Fleches against french grips are not usually a good idea.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:35
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Are points awarded to hits on the arm with the longsword? Is it worthwhile to base a significant part of your game around racking up points from forearm cuts and such? Also, and I'm sure there's a good reason for it, why aren't thrusts used more often?
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Apr 7, 2015 02:54
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Would it really be the end of the world if they went with the 256 DE bracket and just cut off the bottom end of the fencers? They usually have a cutoff anyway, why not just pick the bracket size that matches the participant number and cutcutcut
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Apr 24, 2015 05:49
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Heee, they were showing off a bunch in that video. Not that that's a bad thing really, they're obviously having fun and posing a bit for the camera, the audience, and each other. I wonder how much looking good and puffing in front of your opponent was done for effect back in the day. I'd wager a non-zero amount. In terms of bodily harm, the mesur guys really do cut each other's faces up so if anything they're probably pretty close to the realm of practicing combat with the risk of bodily harm. I think they've got lots of rules though like ONLY hitting the head and the equipment is really specialized. Still crazy though.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:41
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Huh. Well then.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:07
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Not to mention that most fencers are absolute geeks about shaving off as many grams as possible from their weapon. A sheathed cable may weigh just a little more. Another good reason is simplicity and cost, and the Way Things Are Done. I bet if you could come up with a superior wiring scheme that has a competitive cost and meets the regulations then it'd sell. Like tips, there are several different tip designs out there and fancy new ones come out all the time. Yet all I ever see are german tips, they just work well and are easy to fix and replace. Granted, my weapons tend to last quite a while since I'm a posty french-gripper, but I still bring a minimum of 3 weapons and 5 body cords to a tournament. The worst I ever did though was lose two blades and the second only because it kept throwing a tip screw. I saw one guy's epee literally shatter in his hand. We were halfway through the bout, and I came in and hit his bell guard on the way and all of a sudden his entire weapon falls apart into pieces. Blade, bell guard, plug assembly all fall on the floor and he's just standing there holding the grip attached to nothing.
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Apr 30, 2015 14:26
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Listen to your body plenty, fencing is pretty punishing in terms of sports injuries. It's so asymmetric that it's easy to overuse a limb and you can't really switch. Knees, ankles, wrist and forearm, shoulder, they're all vulnerable. You can keep things balanced by going to the gym, but nobody's perfect and overdoing it will happen. I wrecked my shoulder last spring and needed 6 weeks of not fencing to let it heal. It's so much fun, you don't want to stop! So what if my ankle is killing me, just five more minutes...
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May 20, 2015 18:21
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Aim for the flashing part of your opponent, that's the weak spot
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Jun 13, 2015 00:04
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Some shoe, any shoe. The thought of fencing barefoot... ech. Everyone fences barefoot where you are? Run. Run away fast and find some people who aren't looney.
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Jun 24, 2015 04:07
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Hard-sided golf cases are the bomb, especially if you have to travel by air to a venue. Nothing worse than getting your bag and finding all your blades are bent backwards because they got stacked funny on the plane.
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Jan 29, 2016 16:42
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so manly
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Feb 1, 2016 15:47
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Standard is good, get FIE if you can afford it, always go german tips (epeeist talking).
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Feb 13, 2016 06:29
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I think if he taped the little plate to his finger, or attached it to the inside of the glove it'd be legal. I've heard of people taping on plastic plates or wearing inner gloves to protect against flicks to the hand causing damage. As long as it's inside the glove you can wear whatever you want.
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Aug 21, 2016 14:19
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Fat Samurai posted:After a decade or so of bumbling around small towns I've finally moved to a big city where I can do nerd poo poo. I've always been interested in fencing, but at 35 I'm wondering if I'm too old to start. How demanding is the sport, reflex-wise? Half of the time I can't decide who hit whom in a match, but maybe the Olympics finals are not a good sample Absolutely not too old to start. I didn't pick up fencing until my mid-late 20's and I was over 30 before I stopped farting around and actually started fencing competitively. And there are folks, very talented and good fencers, at my club who picked up the sport as grandparents. You won't have the same training journey as a youngster, but as long as you're having fun you're doing it right.
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Oct 25, 2016 17:14
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I've taken a break from fencing to work on my house for the past year or so, but I'm definitely looking forward to getting back into it with vet fencer status coming up in a few years. My rating will degrade in that time, but working to win it back just gives me something to shoot for.
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Oct 25, 2016 17:28
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