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I'm an American. I was talking with someone from the United Kingdom recently, and we really couldn't understand each other's views on patriotism. I realize that my country has done some terrible things over the years, but I'm still proud to live here. As a country, we've accomplished amazing things. He didn't really seem to think living in England was any better than living anywhere else in the developed world. He also mentioned that, in his experience, the only people who displayed American levels of national pride were the far-right. Is this a common opinion?
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Jan 17, 2015 12:40
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In Italy the only time a lot of people have any sort of real nationalist feeling is World Cup.
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Jan 17, 2015 12:41
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Volcott posted:I'm an American. I was talking with someone from the United Kingdom recently, and we really couldn't understand each other's views on patriotism. I realize that my country has done some terrible things over the years, but I'm still proud to live here. As a country, we've accomplished amazing things. Yeah, Americans are crazy nationalist, for one example, take yourself. I hope this helps. Sincerely, Europe
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Jan 17, 2015 12:42
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Why should I get to feel proud of someone else's accomplishments just because our parents hosed in the same country
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Jan 17, 2015 12:46
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Most of us like at least some of the stuff about where we live, and have probably invested time and energy learning our histories. That doesn't mean we have to trip over ourselves to find new ways to self-congratulate at every opportunity. In England it was always regarded, as part of the national manners, as quite crass to be too over the top nationalistic; that's only recently started to change. Showy and often voiced nationalism is, I think for a lot of Europeans, a sign that something is a bit wrong. A little bit of quiet pride is fine. Loud maybe for sports if you like that kind of thing. The idea of flying a flag outside your house and swearing allegiance in the morning - what the gently caress?
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Jan 17, 2015 13:04
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Torka posted:Why should I get to feel proud of someone else's accomplishments just because our parents hosed in the same country Because you get freebie cred without having to do anything! It's great for when your own contributions to life are lackluster.
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Jan 17, 2015 13:11
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If you have an abounding love for your country then you must embrace it's atrocities. Both stand as the foundation to form true love with a person, place, thing. Your friend sounds safe and not into commitments. Probably because neither of them are rushing it and having fun, knowing it will end one day. Disinterested posted:The idea of flying a flag outside your house and swearing allegiance in the morning - what the gently caress? Hahaha I live in a loving rural backwoods where there's cars on cement blocks, livestock and stray animals roam free, and there's still dudes every morning with their breakfast of Steel Reserve and a Marlboro Red hoisting flags up military issue flagpoles sticking out of their RVs that have no wheels everyday for 25 years straight. Now multiply that patriotic morning by a couple hundred million - but every race, creed, religion in our country doing it. At once. Everyday. Several times a day. It's American As gently caress (TM). Armani fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 13:13
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Also, I don't think that many Europeans would loudly assert that theirs is the best country in the world, as Americans seem so prone to do (although I've almost never met an eastern European person who didn't insist the women from his country were the most attractive at least once). I think the principal reason to be nationalistic for a lot of Europeans is so that you can poo poo on your neighbours if you meet one in a bar for pure banter purposes. loving Germans 
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Jan 17, 2015 13:15
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Disinterested posted:Also, I don't think that many Europeans would loudly assert that theirs is the best country in the world, as Americans seem so prone to do (although I've almost never met an eastern European person who didn't insist the women from his country were the most attractive at least once). Its because they know it isnt true Also 3 times a day every single American has to face Washington DC and praise Franklin.
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Jan 17, 2015 13:22
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RonMexicosPitbull posted:Also Hth.
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Jan 17, 2015 13:23
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Australian pride is growing, mostly through the avenue of troop worship, which turned a national day of remembrance into Australia Day 2: Australia Harder. Public Australian pride out of those days however is still very much the domain of people who like bashing other people because they look different, and pretty much everyone agrees that making your school kids say a pledge to a flag is creepy/sad.
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Jan 17, 2015 13:30
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RonMexicosPitbull posted:Its because they know it isnt true Aren't American schoolkids pretty much literally doing that every morning, except towards an inanimate object? It's creepy.
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Jan 17, 2015 13:34
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In Switzerland the whole country gets very patriotic on the 1st of August (national day) and the World Cup. For some reason I find that form of national pride charming whereas my experience of it in the US, driving through suburbs where house after house had an American flag waving proudly out the front, was just kind of creepy.
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Jan 17, 2015 13:42
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Volcott posted:I realize that my country has done some terrible things over the years, but I'm still proud to live here. As a country, we've accomplished amazing things. On the balance of stuff like the genocide of the native Americans and invasions of most of Latin America, you still think positively about America's history? Armani posted:If you have an abounding love for your country then you must embrace it's atrocities. Both stand as the foundation to form true love with a person, place, thing. Yeah, this. Maybe there should be one national day where people celebrate good things about their country like landing on the Moon or having the NHS, and another where they burn their country's flag and criticise slavery and imperialism.
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Jan 17, 2015 13:43
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There's only one way to do nationalism properly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBT4ZWy6Lm4 To answer seriously, I live in Scotland where there's quite a lot of open "pro-Scottishness" and the governing party is the SNP (Scottish National Party). I'm pretty sure this is only the case because of the existence of the UK, Scotland being ruled by London, and all the other consequences of having to overcome a massive cultural cringe. Or maybe it's because bagpipes, whisky and haggis is all legitimately awesome and why the gently caress wouldn't you be proud of that.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:03
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Volcott posted:I'm an American. I was talking with someone from the United Kingdom recently, and we really couldn't understand each other's views on patriotism. I realize that my country has done some terrible things over the years, but I'm still proud to live here. As a country, we've accomplished amazing things. Proud to the point of saying "yeah it's better than abroad" is chauvinism. Like, literally the reason the word exists was napoleonic-era french soldiers mocking the blind nationalism of one of their own. The enlightenment, one of the few objectively positive cultural things out of Europe, came from aggressively cosmopolitan types who had bones to pick with their country of birth in mot cases. Also let's compare. Europe is built on layered conquests, wars and assimilation policies which ultimately make it really hard for people to give that much of a gently caress; when Italy was united, the average sicilian didn't give two shits whether they were italian or duo-sicilian and whether the king was a Savoie, a Bourbon, or a hamster wearing a tutu and most every european country barring the most homogenous end up with a periphery of varying size that gives even less of a gently caress. To contrast, the United States of America expanded mostly as the monolithic creature of a single culture, benefitting a single people, and when that's been breached in ways that might make the WASPs' cultural hold on the country, it always caused massive resentment. Countries in the Americas which still have that kind of periphery usually have tensions that go from political nightmare to downright constant separatist conflicts on the edges.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:05
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American nationalism hasn't led to any horrors we've been forced to confront as of yet, so it's not really surprising how widespread it is. There's also the point of view that focusing on America as made up of trivial things demolishes our understanding of it as a collection of ideals or of people, but that's somewhat paranoid for my tastes.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:08
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Effectronica posted:American nationalism hasn't led to any horrors we've been forced to confront as of yet, so it's not really surprising how widespread it is. There's also the point of view that focusing on America as made up of trivial things demolishes our understanding of it as a collection of ideals or of people, but that's somewhat paranoid for my tastes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
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Jan 17, 2015 14:10
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"McCarthy did nothing wrong" is a stupidly common opinion on the right.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:12
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McCarthy was one guy who a lot of the conservative establishment hated, although he's been rehabilitated by many on the modern right. The overall Red Scares, though, haven't been admitted to be a bad thing by most of America yet, nor as something we did as a whole nation.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:14
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The only acceptable nationalism is separatist movements 
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Jan 17, 2015 14:35
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Effectronica posted:McCarthy was one guy who a lot of the conservative establishment hated, although he's been rehabilitated by many on the modern right. The overall Red Scares, though, haven't been admitted to be a bad thing by most of America yet, nor as something we did as a whole nation. So you're saying nothing has slipped into the American consciousness yet as a trauma? I kind of get the vibe that slavery and civil rights is at least a bit that way. Of course, there are all sorts of trapdoors that allow you not to blame yourself for this.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:47
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A lot of Europeans are not from Germany and therefore have no reason to be proud of their Slav hovels, op.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:54
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I will posit a theory that concentration camps breed nationalism. The more concentration camps your country has, the more nationalist it becomes. Some examples: 1. Britain during empire times, they invented this poo poo 2. Germany, doh 3. The US with its Indian Reservations, arguably ghettos 4. France during Vichy times and France in its colonies, arguably the banlieues 5. Australia today 6. Apartheid South Africa 7. Israel with its Occupied Territories We must never allow a concentration camp gap. Theory might only apply to western nations. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 14:57
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Disinterested posted:So you're saying nothing has slipped into the American consciousness yet as a trauma? I kind of get the vibe that slavery and civil rights is at least a bit that way. Of course, there are all sorts of trapdoors that allow you not to blame yourself for this. Those aren't things we understand as a consequence of American nationalism, and they're also associated with specific regions in the country.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:57
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Effectronica posted:Those aren't things we understand as a consequence of American nationalism, and they're also associated with specific regions in the country. Racism especially is only deemed a "Southern" thing.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:59
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Effectronica posted:Those aren't things we understand as a consequence of American nationalism, and they're also associated with specific regions in the country. That your country has done lovely things can be sufficient to dampen nationalism, whether the lovely things were related to your nationalism or not.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:59
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Disinterested posted:That your country has done lovely things can be sufficient to dampen nationalism, whether the lovely things were related to your nationalism or not. However, it's mostly western Europe that has had that dampening. Nationalism is still strong in eastern and southern Europe. All of those countries are also ones which either went through decolonization or fascist governments, both of which are fairly intrinsically tied to nationalism as a principle. Italian fascism being recognized as a bad thing drags down nationalism with it.
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Jan 17, 2015 15:04
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Agnosticnixie posted:Also let's compare. Europe is built on layered conquests, wars and assimilation policies which ultimately make it really hard for people to give that much of a gently caress; when Italy was united, the average sicilian didn't give two shits whether they were italian or duo-sicilian and whether the king was a Savoie, a Bourbon, or a hamster wearing a tutu and most every european country barring the most homogenous end up with a periphery of varying size that gives even less of a gently caress. And I say this while being a proud Euro.
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Jan 17, 2015 15:07
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Effectronica posted:However, it's mostly western Europe that has had that dampening. Nationalism is still strong in eastern and southern Europe. All of those countries are also ones which either went through decolonization or fascist governments, both of which are fairly intrinsically tied to nationalism as a principle. Italian fascism being recognized as a bad thing drags down nationalism with it. That's how it plays out in practice, I'm just saying that the 'my country did bad stuff in the past' narrative is another way you could get to a reduction of nationalism even if what happened wasn't a strict correlate of nationalism. Of course, the other thing is that nationalism was partly a liberation movement in eastern and central Europe (also places like Finland).
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Jan 17, 2015 15:10
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ekuNNN posted:The only acceptable nationalism is separatist movements I'd tend to agree, and posit that decentralisation is a positive movement resulting from localised self-interest- Scottish, Catalan, Basque independence movements, etc; with the caveat that sometimes it really just is a bunch of assholes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord
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Jan 17, 2015 15:14
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Gentleman Baller posted:Australian pride is growing, mostly through the avenue of troop worship, which turned a national day of remembrance into Australia Day 2: Australia Harder. Public Australian pride out of those days however is still very much the domain of people who like bashing other people because they look different, and pretty much everyone agrees that making your school kids say a pledge to a flag is creepy/sad. Advance Australia Fair!
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Jan 17, 2015 15:32
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Actually far-right groups are on the rise right now.
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Jan 17, 2015 15:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Actually far-right groups are on the rise right now. and that is a bad thing
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Jan 17, 2015 15:48
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nationalism is gauche no matter where you live
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Jan 17, 2015 15:52
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Disinterested posted:So you're saying nothing has slipped into the American consciousness yet as a trauma? I kind of get the vibe that slavery and civil rights is at least a bit that way. Of course, there are all sorts of trapdoors that allow you not to blame yourself for this. racism is over you stupid Euro, we got rid of it over 50 years ago. infact slavery and Jim Crow are points of pride for our country because white middle class WASPs have twisted them so much they actually feel more proud of getting rid of them than they feel any shame for them existing to begin with *starts chanting USA USA USA*
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Jan 17, 2015 16:06
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I can understand why Americans would have national pride. 1) largest economy in the world...for now 2) strongest military 3) win most of their wars 4) most successful democracy 5) biggest energy producer 6) only superpower in the world 7) us dollar world standard currency 8) generally world leader in everything (UN, g8, g12 etc summits) 9) best entertainment industry, we feed the rest of the world our movies and culture (music, movies, food etc) 10) borders are protected by 2 oceans and 2 non threatening neighbors (canada and mexico). Other countries have to worry about defense much more 11) large area of farmable land through center of the continent they pretty much have the best of everything. Their young so their list of attrocities are fairly minor and in general their actions are with good intent. I would much rather have America the super power than any other country the super power. disclaimer..i was born in Poland, moved to the US at age 9. Most of my family still lives in Poland so while Im not completely impartial towards the US I have been mostly assimilated
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Jan 17, 2015 16:14
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All the Polish expats I know are cool and chill dudes and Tyskie is a fun beer because it comes in huge bottles and doesn't cost much. All the Americans I know just seem embarrassed to be Americans.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:19
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Clearing a continent of its original inhabitants: a fairly minor atrocity apparently.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:20
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namesake posted:Clearing a continent of its original inhabitants: a fairly minor atrocity apparently. Europeans did like 90% of that anyway.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:21
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