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davidb posted:Their young so their list of attrocities are fairly minor and in general their actions are with good intent.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:45
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We Europeans are classy, dignified and discrete about our pride. American nationalism is like the nouveau riche. Tacky, overblown, overconfident. A subtle patronizing look and asking about your health care system in perfect, fluent English is all it takes to shoot down your American flag underwear "argument". Seriously, do you even lift, bro?
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Jan 17, 2015 16:52
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computer parts posted:Europeans did like 90% of that anyway. Yeah we we really just mopped up the survivors. Plagues brought from Europe did the bulk of the work
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Jan 17, 2015 17:00
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computer parts posted:Europeans did like 90% of that anyway. On the upside, smallpox was a huge boon to the bison population.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:07
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you're missing the point, americans
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Jan 17, 2015 17:11
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R. Mute posted:you're missing the point, americans
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Jan 17, 2015 17:14
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Rygar201 posted:Yeah we we really just mopped up the survivors. Plagues brought from Europe did the bulk of the work You are 17th century Europe's crotch spawn just as much as I am, so I'm not sure where you are going with this argument. Your own family not good enough for you, eh?
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Jan 17, 2015 17:14
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Things we didn't miss: Dresden, Hiroshima. Woah woah woah. Dresden is more our atrocity than yours, motherfucker. Get your own.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:15
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We either humble brag or we do a weird thing where we boast about how poo poo we are and how poo poo our country is. People do this in Japan and India too, I've got in full-blown arguments with Japanese people over who comes from the shittiest country or who's the worst at speaking the other one's language. You see it all over the place, and it's very much a thing in the UK, in some areas more than others. In some ways it's a kind of pride in overcoming adversity, like if someone says "What's your hometown like?" you might answer "It's poo poo, and that's why we look out for each other and we're such a great community". We like to bond over complaining about things, like a good conversation starter is "Crap weather, we're having, isn't it?" or "Ugh, bus is late again". Or we compliment each other but not ourselves. That translates to a national scale too, although we like taking the piss out of other countries in a friendly sort of way too (though sometimes that goes too far, e.g. international football rivalries where most people are just having a laugh but a few get violent over it). I'm from the east coast of Scotland where there's still a real Calvinist, austere tradition that you absolutely do not boast or put on airs, which makes it pretty difficult in job interviews when the HR managers ask "so give us an honest appraisal of your skills" and you say "eh, I'm nothing special, about average I guess", which in Brit-speak means "I'm the god drat best there is". It's only really in some parts of London or among aspirational yuppie types (like on The Apprentice) where you see people boasting, and everyone else mocks them for it. Now, people familiar with the culture will understand that and translate it as "I'm brilliant but I'd feel bad saying so", but people from countries like the USA where you can actually say "I'm pretty great at this skill" without being ribbed mercilessly will often take that at face value and not hire you. There are business coaches and career advisors who teach Europeans how to really sell their CV. A conversation that often takes place at parties in Britain is: "I love your outfit!" "Oh, this old thing? Ah, I've had it ages. I like your dress." "Nah, it was my mum's in the '70s, it's rubbish" "Mine's from a charity shop and cost me 50p" "Well my mum got this one free out of a dustbin" "Well MINE is full of holes and the seams are all raggy" "Well MINE is polyester and it's fraying" "MINE'S THE WORST!" "NO, MINE!"
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Jan 17, 2015 17:19
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Things we didn't miss: Dresden, Hiroshima. I have been in Dresden, it's a really nice city. Not really impressed with your work there. Take a walk around Machu Pichu if you want to see how things are done in the real world.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:22
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waitwhatno posted:I have been in Dresden, it's a really nice city. Not really impressed with your work there.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:26
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davidb posted:I can understand why Americans would have national pride. Hahaha
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Jan 17, 2015 17:33
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ekuNNN posted:Hahaha
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Jan 17, 2015 17:37
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Remember that time Obama suggested Greeks and the British and other people also believed in exceptionalism for their nations and some people got pissed over it? Good times.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:49
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namesake posted:Clearing a continent of its original inhabitants: a fairly minor atrocity apparently. We should all walk around embarrassed because our homo sapien/erectus ancestors killed off an ENTIRE SPECIES of humans called neanderthalls. Neanderthalls were at the same technological level as us (basic stone tools) until roughly 75k years ago? If u dont wake up crying every morning you are a horrible human being The expansion of any civilization has always come at the cost of the indigneous people and thru war. So yes, minor atrocity. Slavery was a worse thing and it still doesnt dampen americans nationalism. Efforts are made to apologize and compensate the people for those things which is worth something on the balance scale.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:00
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waitwhatno posted:We Europeans are classy, dignified and discrete about our pride. American nationalism is like the nouveau riche. Tacky, overblown, overconfident. Americans tend to be fat because they overeat. And all the health problems that come with that. But overall when i visit my european family i see many more health issues around the dinner table than i do walking thru walmart in america. And everyone knows the stereotype of bad teeth of europeans compared to americans (think austin powers) Not to mention that healthcare is sinking most economies around the world. Youll have to do better than health care to sink american nationalism. Especially post obama care
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Jan 17, 2015 18:04
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davidb posted:We should all walk around embarrassed because our homo sapien/erectus ancestors killed off an ENTIRE SPECIES of humans called neanderthalls. Neanderthalls were at the same technological level as us (basic stone tools) until roughly 75k years ago? You might be able to make this argument if Americans didn't go around whooping about how good they were at killing Native Americans and openly mocking them at Halloween. EDIT: Nevermind, I got trolled.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:06
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Things we didn't miss: Dresden, Hiroshima. What about dresden? Hiroshima was a major success story. 1) overall lowered casualties for both sides had the war dragged on conventionally. America attacked at pearl harbor had no obligation to play fair at the game of war. 2) with american influence japan, korea, germany all nations we were involved in militarily grew to be the dominant economies around the world. Youll have to try harder to bash america unfortunately. Focus more on guantanimo, torture, unprovoked war with iraq, nsa spying or something.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:10
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davidb posted:What about dresden? That argument is highly questionable considering Truman's staff deliberately drew up a worst case scenario version of what was already the worst case scenario. Japanese war fatigue by the end of the war was absurdly high and Kuantung army officers that had a chance to surrender often did it because they were more terrified of what the manchu and the koreans would do to them than of what the red army would do to them. The humanitarian argument for hiroshima basically requires assuming that japan was a monolith when the empire was cracking at the seams by the end of the war. It was almost entirely a show of force to the USSR. Also Japan and Germany were great powers before the United States graced it with the seeds of capitalism in the aftermath of the world wars and in the case of Germany, before the US.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:13
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I worked in a Japanese kindergarten for a year. Every morning the kids would assemble outside, sing the school song, and top it off with a few "Banzai! Banzai! Banzai!". This was in 2010 and felt like an odd nationalist anachronism to witness, and made me uncomfortable until I got used to it as part of my daily routine. I get the same uncomfortable feeling when I see Americans holding their hands over their hearts, staring fixedly into the distance when listening to their national anthem.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:17
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ekuNNN posted:Hahaha Show me a more succesful democracy and Ill show you how your wrong. I know its cool, hip to poo poo talk America. But your really on the losing team in that argument. Feel free to point out what America has done wrong but by most measures they are #1
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Jan 17, 2015 18:18
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Agnosticnixie posted:That argument is highly questionable considering Truman's staff deliberately drew up a worst case scenario version of what was already the worst case scenario. Japanese war fatigue by the end of the war was absurdly high and Kuantung army officers that had a chance to surrender often did it because they were more terrified of what the manchu and the koreans would do to them than of what the red army would do to them. The humanitarian argument for hiroshima basically requires assuming that japan was a monolith when the empire was cracking at the seams by the end of the war. It was almost entirely a show of force to the USSR. *Cities already bombed into oblivion by fire bombing* *Doesn't surrender after 1st atomic bomb* *Attempted coup to stop surrender speech after 2nd bomb* *Soldiers still fighting tenaciously for every mile of ground* Yeah, totally about to surrender.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:18
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Rakosi posted:I get the same uncomfortable feeling when I see Americans holding their hands over their hearts, staring fixedly into the distance when listening to their national anthem. At least we dropped the Bellamy Salute.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:19
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davidb posted:Show me a more succesful democracy and Ill show you how your wrong. For starters, any country in the world not using a first-past-the-post system.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:22
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Coohoolin posted:You might be able to make this argument if Americans didn't go around whooping about how good they were at killing Native Americans and openly mocking them at Halloween. What kind of crazy talk is this? Americans whoop about how good they are about killing native americans? I havent seen "indian" costimes mocking native americans for halloween. The only time i see indian costumes is in old movies. All i see is costumes for whatever cartoons are popular that year. If i ever see an indian outfit with my eyes it probably will be about as mocking of native americans as toga parties are of ancient greeks/romans. Your trying so hard i can see that but not good enough
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Jan 17, 2015 18:23
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davidb posted:Show me a more succesful democracy and Ill show you how your wrong. I know its cool, hip to poo poo talk America. But your really on the losing team in that argument. Many countries, particularly Scandinavian ones, consistently rank higher than the US at being a better democracy. US might have the most power and financial success of any democracy but they're not the most democratic by a long shot.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:24
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davidb posted:Show me a more succesful democracy and Ill show you how your wrong. I know its cool, hip to poo poo talk America. But your really on the losing team in that argument. What do you mean most successful democracy? Are there countries without democracies that are more successful than the U.S. Or do the U.S. Government representatives represent its citizens values and voting intentions more than other democracies or something?
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Jan 17, 2015 18:26
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Agnosticnixie posted:
You mean the germany which was economically poverty stricken by war reparations from ww1? And japan at the end of ww2 was also economically devastated and if america hadnt stepped in would not be what it is now. Also south korea success story.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:26
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davidb posted:What about dresden? I'm here to condescendingly educate you about your own countries history, something that your school system is clearly unable to do. Please read the following paragraph with a strong, patronizing German accent: The only important factor in Japans surrender was the war entry of the Soviet Union and the complete defeat of Japans mainland forces by the Red Army. This is when Japan offered a surrender. All that atomic bomb stuff happened after that, presumably because you wanted to get a few round off into Japans corpse before the war was over.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:27
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paranoid randroid posted:At least we dropped the Bellamy Salute. Thank god for that. Patriotism is an uncomfortable thing to see nowadays; because it's by nature cherry-picking the achievements of a nation. The only time I ever really get close to engaging in it is during the World Cup, or when choosing who to cheer for in a tennis match or something. I support my countrymen by default in those situations, but I don't ever celebrate my country itself.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:30
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waitwhatno posted:All that atomic bomb stuff happened after that Breaking news from D&D: Time is no longer linear
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Jan 17, 2015 18:32
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Amused to Death posted:*Cities already bombed into oblivion by fire bombing* By the time the second bomb hit the japanese government still didn't know what, exactly, had hit them in Hiroshima. Your fourth point doesn't remotely describe the Kwantung army, and the marines being fuckups has a lot to do with the island hopping campaigns. Okinawa wasn't a show of patriotism, it was a second class population being treated like second class by the IJA; had the Marines been in charge of taking Hokkaido, I wouldn't be surprised to read history books relating that the IJA higher ups decided finishing up the Ainu genocide was a better use of the troops than fighting the US once the battle was obviously lost. quote:You mean the germany which was economically poverty stricken by war reparations from ww1?
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Jan 17, 2015 18:32
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waitwhatno posted:Please read the following paragraph with a strong, patronizing German accent: Sie Bitte Unterlassen! Nicht stehlen mein Gimmick!
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Jan 17, 2015 18:35
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Ah yes, the treasured "we had to nuke the Japs, they were going to resist us in a grueling ground campaign and 1 million GIs would have perished."
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Jan 17, 2015 18:45
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Gentleman Baller posted:What do you mean most successful democracy? Are there countries without democracies that are more successful than the U.S. Or do the U.S. Government representatives represent its citizens values and voting intentions more than other democracies or something? Well besides america being #1 by most measurements. Or if not #1 then very high up there. So not only are they the most successful democracy their also most successful of any type of government/economy When i say most successful democracy i mean if you stacked all pros vs all cons. Whatever measurements we use keep in mind the US shoulders the burden of generally maintaining world peace. So much so that europe has almost completely dismantled their own militaries. Their able to pocket the gdp savings and use them for social services. Which has made europe the most peaceful its been since ww2. They have done this with full confidence in America protecting them from Russia who otherwise would easily swept thru. Amrica has missteped with its military might. But overall the whole world trusts them to act responsibly and to protect everyone to the point where almost all militaries have been mostly dismantled. Now china is rising and will overtake america(or maybe it will flounder under corruption and old people retiring bubble with environmental problems). And china is building a military. Thats a country that people dont trust so asian countries are building back up. But overall i would point to the overall peace in the world compared to all of human history and i would mostly attribute that to americas success as a democracy/military that people trust
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Jan 17, 2015 18:49
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davidb posted:Well besides america being #1 by most measurements. Or if not #1 then very high up there. So not only are they the most successful democracy their also most successful of any type of government/economy It was predictable that the 'is it ok to be proud of your country' thread would turn in to a dick length competition, I'm just surprised it didn't happen sooner.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:52
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davidb posted:Well besides america being #1 by most measurements. Or if not #1 then very high up there. So not only are they the most successful democracy their also most successful of any type of government/economy Thank you. This post is my response to the op.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:54
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computer parts posted:Europeans did like 90% of that anyway. Uhh look at the 13 colonies on a map relative to the rest of the US. Also the Europeans doing the genociding were, y'know, the ones in the colonies. One of the reasons the Revolution happened was the British government trying to stop westward expansion as it tended to provoke expensive wars with the Indians (which the colonists didn't want to pay for).
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Jan 17, 2015 19:04
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feedmegin posted:Uhh look at the 13 colonies on a map relative to the rest of the US. Also the Europeans doing the genociding were, y'know, the ones in the colonies. One of the reasons the Revolution happened was the British government trying to stop westward expansion was it tended to provoke expensive wars with the Indians (which the colonists didn't want to pay for). Look at a map of the Western Hemisphere and see how much of it belonged to Spain, a European country.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:06
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Woh Woh Woh Woh people let's keep this debate civilized! Now, cut or uncut?
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Jan 17, 2015 19:14
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