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davidb posted:I mean, i guess besides founding israel democracy in middle east, and iraq democracy. Those dont count....what are they REALLY doing to spread democracy around the world...those american scum Since our actions in Iraq have had such a great result and Israel is such a bastion of moral righteousness (lol). Regarding WW2, if you had to point to any single country that contributed the most to the war effort on the side of the Allies, it would without a sliver of a doubt be the USSR, not the USA. The USSR sacrificed far more and incurred far more Axis casualties than the US did. (edit: This isn't to meant as a statement that the USSR/Russia is great or anything; it's just to point out how dumb "the USA won WW2 for Europe!" is)
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Jan 18, 2015 18:16
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nopantsjack posted:People really see the world as a videogame where Russia wants the World Domination victory condition. Its a pretty far cry from Russia snapping up parts of its old terroritory with Russians in and them conquering the whole of Europe for no reason. No. Russia doesnt conquer europe for no reason. They conquer all their former territories for the reason of being russia and russians live there. Just like hitler bit off peices of czehoslovakia and austria because germans lived there. And europe had the same response then. Fear of getting hands dirty and not enough benefit to stopping hitler. It doesnt matter if some european countries have nukes. Russia had many nukes. Nuclear countries can go to war without using nukes. You just take the nationality markings off the uniforms and pretend you dont know where those russian speaking soldiers came from What domination moves has america made? Their pulling out of everywhere, afghanistan, iraq, europe even as all locations ask for them to stay behind closed doors...and publicly demanding their departure. Hardly the behaviour of a conqueror. Russia and china...full blown territory grabs
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Jan 18, 2015 18:17
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davidb posted:I mean, i guess besides founding israel democracy in middle east, and iraq democracy. Those dont count....what are they REALLY doing to spread democracy around the world...those american scum Did you seriously just use Israel and Iraq, one of which uses bantustans to deny millions of people the vote and the other of which is currently collapsing due to its refusal to do anything but shuffle the deck chairs as their ship sinks because of the threat of ISIS, as examples of functioning democracies?
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Jan 18, 2015 18:19
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Disinterested posted:
They are different things, it is true and so don't compare totally together. By and large we didn't go into other countries and purposefully round up an exterminate one or two specific races (to my knowledge). It was more that we went into other countries and then imprisoned, quarantined or exterminated troublesome groups often under ethnic lines. If you're looking at it in terms of numbers of people killed, general attitudes of the immediate oppressors and backing ideology it is very similar though, apart from we probably killed more people. I mean we turned entire Kenyan societies into deadly concentration camps. Hitler was mental and a threat to the western world, but there is a reason many people in colonial countries sided with the Axis. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 18:19
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Ytlaya posted:Since our actions in Iraq have had such a great result and Israel is such a bastion of moral righteousness (lol). I know its hip to bash israel just like its cool to bash america. Im pretty sure if you lived in israel where the muslim countries around you were attacking you constantly you would retaliate too in such a way that sometimes internet gurus like yourself could criticise. Israel is a great country, not perfect, but great Yes russia did the majority of the lifting in ww2. But americas influence kept russia from steamrolling as far as they felt like. And russia wasnt responsible for the formation of israel.
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Jan 18, 2015 18:23
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Did you seriously just use Israel and Iraq, one of which uses bantustans to deny millions of people the vote and the other of which is currently collapsing due to its refusal to do anything but shuffle the deck chairs as their ship sinks because of the threat of ISIS, as examples of functioning democracies? Israel and iraq are democracries. Thanks to america. Those countries are on the list. Along with other countries america has helped establish a democracy. All the countries on the list have varying degrees of democratic success. Im putting israel as an overall resounding success even if not perfect. Iraq is a troubled nation with many problems. Its too soon to say how iraq will pan out. But if they end up with anything less than the dictator they had before and the democracy we hoped for them then it will have been another example of america spreading democracy. That was afterall the context focul point of those comments. Someone laughed at the notion that america was spreading democracy
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Jan 18, 2015 18:29
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davidb posted:
Haha e for content: America supports a foreign occupier over the democratically elected government of Palestine. America supports a military coup that ousted the democratically elected government of Egypt and sentenced them all to death. This was ONE year ago! America basically rigged all the Iraqi and Afghani elections as much as possible. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 18:31
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That's without getting started on South America.
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Jan 18, 2015 18:49
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Disinterested posted:You're still a long way from demonstrating comparability with the holocaust, particularly considering that famines are not wholly preventable. Most of them were made worse by British rule (though after the worst of them British relief efforts picked up in some cases). It's a long road from killing people with neglect and indifference to hoarding them according to ethnic group into trains to gas them (particularly in light of how much more developed a society we're talking about in 1945 Germany vs Britain in the early 1800's). How about sending people to "famine camps" where they worked extremely long hours of hard labor for rations that provided fewer calories than many German concentration camps? Intentionally abandoning strategies that had been shown to be successful in preventing famine because they involved spending more money than letting millions starve? Exporting enormous amounts of food from India to Britain during all of these famines? Famine death in India was very much something British authorities were aware of, had the capacity to prevent or enormously mitigate, and intentionally chose not to. http://www.amazon.com/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-Famines-Making/dp/1859843824 davidb posted:Israel and iraq are democracries. Thanks to america. Those countries are on the list. Along with other countries america has helped establish a democracy. If you think the Maliki regime was a pinnacle of democracy in Iraq, you are very severely mistaken. It was replaced by the current government not because of its undemocratic and borderline dictatorial actions but because it was unable to achieve US policy goals with regards to fighting ISIS. As for Israel being a wonderful example of the US spreading democracy,  . Israel is an apartheid state which is conducting ethnic cleansing and colonialism in the West Bank, while pursuing a policy of collective punishment and repeated attacks on civilians and infrastructure in Gaza.Globally, the US has probably overthrown or subverted more democracies than any other state, including the Soviet Union, even if we limit it to just times during which those states both existed. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 19:00
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nopantsjack posted:
Woah, woah, woah, I don't think someone like Jinnah can be characterized as a Muslim fundamentalist. The partition of India was a complex process that was as much born out of Muslim alienation from the Indian National Congress, often greased along by its perceived attitude as a Hindu nationalist party, Gandhi usually didn't help a whole lot with that perception.
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Jan 18, 2015 19:29
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The more powerful your country, the more ashamed you should probably be of it. No one gets to the top without committing a little bit of genocide now and again.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:12
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I like the people here, the country not so much.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:15
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davidb posted:So germany, japan, south korea being democracys with the some of the best economies in the world doesnt count? I mean its only been less than 50 years since those success stories...whats america done RECENTLY am i right? Why is South Korea of all countries trotted out as an example of the US exporting democracies?
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Jan 18, 2015 20:44
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the boston bomber posted:The more powerful your country, the more ashamed you should probably be of it. No one gets to the top without committing a little bit of genocide now and again. Yeah thats generally true. And no country, no culture exists without killing some people along the way. Humans are like that America killed natives to take their land. Every country killed someone and took their land America enslaved black people that one is top of the list. That ones embarrassing and black/natives do get special treatment now because of it for whatever its worth. But americas recent climb to the top has been the story of being on the right side of history for ww2. Having the most open and least corrupt economy. And using its military to foster general peice around the world. And for the good things america has and does do i give credit where its due
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Jan 18, 2015 21:00
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Alhazred posted:Why is South Korea of all countries trotted out as an example of the US exporting democracies? Because we ignore everything before 1988 and I guess after 2015 now since last I read South Korean courts just outlawed Left Leaning parties. Also NORTH KOREA IS SUPER AWFUL! (Don't very me wrong the DPRK is loving awful but that doesn't mean the South was much better for most of its history)
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Jan 18, 2015 21:02
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If by "blacks and natives get special treatment" you mean they get relegated to ghettos and poo poo on repeatedly, then yes, they do get special treatment.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:03
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Alhazred posted:Why is South Korea of all countries trotted out as an example of the US exporting democracies? Exporting, protecting, allowing to flourish. South korea, like poland would have been firmly under the soviet boot if not for america. There are many democracies that exist either directly because of america or by virtue of being saved from communists
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Jan 18, 2015 21:03
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There was a time that people thought North Korea was the miracle state and that South Korea was a backwater.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:03
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davidb posted:Exporting, protecting, allowing to flourish. South korea, like poland would have been firmly under the soviet boot if not for america. Why was it better to be under the boot of Park Chung-hee or Chun Doo-hwan?
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Jan 18, 2015 21:08
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davidb posted:America enslaved black people that one is top of the list. That ones embarrassing and black/natives do get special treatment now because of it for whatever its worth. Citation needed.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:09
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davidb posted:Yeah thats generally true. And no country, no culture exists without killing some people along the way. Humans are like that I guess you would call the the massive amount of ordinance delivered to Israel over the summer an act of fostering peace? Would you say Iraq is more stable now than it was prior to US military invasion? Your pride in the United States of America as some sort of international arbiter of peace is pretty laughable. The military and large sectors of the economy are massive rackets that don't benefit the majority of the population. Maintaining a favorable status quo requires some blood to be shed in pursuit of a nation's interests. nigel thornberry fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 21:16
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HalloKitty posted:Yeah, I'd say so. Varies a little throughout Europe. I'm from England, but when I came to Denmark, I was a little surprised to see the sheer amount of Danish flags on show.  Really though, that is something which I think sorta makes me understand the American "let's plaster Old Glory all over everything" thing better, because it kinda feels like a relic of an earlier time to me. Like, at birthdays we put out a whole lot of flags,, on the cake, on tiny flag poles, on string, and so on, but I never really thought of it as having anything to do with celebrating Denmark or whatever. It was just the traditional decoration that told you it was a birthday party, much like a Christmas tree signifies Christmas. Maybe it's the same in America to some degree, even if some segments take it even further?
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Jan 18, 2015 21:17
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's because our flag is the oldest state flag in the world.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:19
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Much of American nationalism is simply tied into consumerism, the US flag is a logo just as much as anything else. If anything American nationalism is often rather vague because American culture is at the same time and if anything it is ever changing, and so it is difficult to tell where consumerism begins or evens with nationalism.
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Jan 18, 2015 21:47
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Man, you guys love talking about how worse America is than europe.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:03
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Ardennes posted:Much of American nationalism is simply tied into consumerism, the US flag is a logo just as much as anything else. If anything American nationalism is often rather vague because American culture is at the same time and if anything it is ever changing, and so it is difficult to tell where consumerism begins or evens with nationalism. No it's not.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:04
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drilldo squirt posted:Man, you guys love talking about how worse America is than europe. Don't worry, Europe is horrible too. There's just less people trying to claim it's great in threads like these to argue against.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:07
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drilldo squirt posted:No it's not. How so?
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Jan 18, 2015 22:11
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drilldo squirt posted:Man, you guys love talking about how worse America is than europe. There was discussion of how the brutality of the British Empire almost rivaled that of the Nazis just a few pages ago.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:13
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drilldo squirt posted:Man, you guys love talking about how worse America is than europe. Guess it's time for our "Europe is more racist than America" thread again.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:13
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Randler posted:Guess it's time for our "Europe is more racist than America" thread again. Why? Everyone knows it is.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:16
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Ardennes posted:How so? Tell me how it is please.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:16
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drilldo squirt posted:Tell me how it is please. American flags in front of random businesses especially banks, American flags all over cable news channels, merchandise with American flags: it is a big part of marketing. How about "USA-brand" crap too, especially when it is extremely poor quality? Randler posted:Guess it's time for our "Europe is more racist than America" thread again. Don't worry that is every thread about Europe now.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:21
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While I agree corporate America cashes in on nationalism I don't see how they are linked.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:23
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Ardennes posted:
You guys are super racist and it's really funny.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:24
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drilldo squirt posted:While I agree corporate America cashes in on nationalism I don't see how they are linked. It is more that representative examples of nationalism (flags/eagles etc) are more prevalent because business seized upon them for marketing. There is plenty of old fashion nationalism out there as well but it is also caught up in broader mass market. Other countries have this as well but as lot of things, it is super-charged in the US. When I see a flag in Russia, it usually means something more than the US. drilldo squirt posted:You guys are super racist and it's really funny. I am American, so yes. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 22:27
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Ardennes posted:When I see a flag in Russia, it usually means something more than the US. To you.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:29
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davidb posted:Israel and iraq are democracries. Thanks to america. Those countries are on the list. Along with other countries america has helped establish a democracy. Israel not a democracy. It is an apartheid state that actively practices colonialism. United States' support of it is one of the greatest sins it has today. http://m.imgur.com/gallery/L86hXg4 http://m.imgur.com/gallery/Tv0cv Iraq is considered a failed state by any metric by literally every organization and country in the world, including the United States. If you need me to post proof about this you're goddamn hopeless. drilldo squirt posted:You guys are super racist and it's really funny. As an black Finn, yeah, we are. In words. But on the other hand, I don't have to worry about white cops or people shooting me on the street when I'm unarmed and getting off free so I'll take words over deeds. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 22:29
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ThirdPartyView posted:Citation needed. Hey being beaten by the police certainly counts as special treatment.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:30
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Hilarious fact the pledge of Aleigence was originally designed as a way to sell American flags to immigrants in the late 19th century. America had always ever been about the supremacy of capitalism.
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Jan 18, 2015 22:32
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