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mugrim posted:The American people are perfectly safe in America though. There are about 3000 people who would like to have a word with you if they weren't dead.
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Mar 11, 2015 13:54
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Cole posted:There are about 3000 people who would like to have a word with you if they weren't dead. Are you saying Iraq attacked the US during the 9/11 attacks? Is it your opinion that pre-invasion Iraq posed a credible threat to the US?
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Mar 11, 2015 14:05
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mugrim posted:Are you saying Iraq attacked the US during the 9/11 attacks? No. I don't feel like explaining the obvious. But read what I quoted and then read what I said.
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Mar 11, 2015 14:08
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Cole posted:No. I don't feel like explaining the obvious. But read what I quoted and then read what I said. Read what I said. quote:The American people are perfectly safe in America though. It is not until the invasion and power vacuum created by a distracted Saddam that AQ in Iraq really had any kind of strength. The American territory lacks any kind of actual threat from Iraq. It was obviously very specific to Iraq.
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Mar 11, 2015 14:17
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I did read what you said. You said America is perfectly safe. There are 3000 people who would disagree. "Safe from Iraq" is not *~*perfectly*~* safe. You worded it poorly. Your bad.
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Mar 11, 2015 14:37
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The world seems to become easier to understand if you think of the States seeing the entire planet as US territory. The common phase "and our American interests" tasked onto the list of allies and whatnot when talking about spending and military intentions makes it pretty clear that sovereignty doesn't really matter all that much, what's important are the resources we need to ensure our  NATIONAL SECURITY and stability. Oil, bananas, record breaking poppy fields that are surging in size right next to US bases; if we need it, it's ours. Don't like it? Then in the joking words of Obama, "Predator drone"
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Mar 11, 2015 14:40
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This thread is proof that the terrorists won.
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Mar 11, 2015 14:43
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Cole posted:I did read what you said. You said America is perfectly safe. There are 3000 people who would disagree. Maybe time to close the thread? Just throwing it out there.
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Mar 11, 2015 15:14
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Basebf555 posted:Maybe time to close the thread? Just throwing it out there. This harsh mod-less wasteland is terrible.
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Mar 11, 2015 15:20
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Like most things, analogies aren't a 1:1 match to reality. According to Kyle, he's a man who can fight protecting those who can't from those that would do them harm. That was his opinion and world view and that's what the movie showed. I'm really not interested in arguing if he was right or not, but that was what he thought. And since you seem so excited to bring up the Nazis and condemn violence, how do you get around the fact that the Nazis were eventually stopped by horrific acts of violence?
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Mar 11, 2015 15:41
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Armyman25 posted:Like most things, analogies aren't a 1:1 match to reality. According to Kyle, he's a man who can fight protecting those who can't from those that would do them harm. That was his opinion and world view and that's what the movie showed. I'm really not interested in arguing if he was right or not, but that was what he thought. Well that brings up an issue of perspective. If your opinion is to take the movie as its own work, you run into the issue that he's never actually seen defending civilians so the in movie analogy is problematic. If we are to look externally as well as within the movie, we then get a terrible dissonance between on screen Kyle and the real Kyle, especially in regards to morality, attitude, and how they perceived themselves as protectors. [quote="Armyman25"post="442597424"] And since you seem so excited to bring up the Nazis and condemn violence, how do you get around the fact that the Nazis were eventually stopped by horrific acts of violence? [/quote] Pretty easily actually, we had a valid cause for war (specifically being attacked). I don't think all violence is unnecessary or wrong.
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Mar 11, 2015 17:28
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mugrim posted:Well that brings up an issue of perspective. If your opinion is to take the movie as its own work, you run into the issue that he's never actually seen defending civilians so the in movie analogy is problematic. In Kyle's opinion, his service in Iraq is defending the people of the United States. You sure seemed to be equating the violence advocated on the patch with the Nazi's Final Solution. When the patch said nothing of the sort.
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Mar 11, 2015 17:35
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Armyman25 posted:In Kyle's opinion, his service in Iraq is defending the people of the United States. His book actually references defending other soldiers far more than defending America, though he does state that every dead Iraqi made him feel like America is safer. But in this analogy the sheep dog left the flock. That is kind of a big no no. Armyman25 posted:You sure seemed to be equating the violence advocated on the patch with the Nazi's Final Solution. When the patch said nothing of the sort. Well both punisher and the knights Templar are referenced on the patch sooooooo. Also "Violence is the Solution" is practically begging to be mocked. I mean, they literally say the patch is linked to those two things. Why separate the patch from its creators?
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Mar 11, 2015 19:06
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Armyman25 posted:You sure seemed to be equating the violence advocated on the patch with the Nazi's Final Solution. When the patch said nothing of the sort. Everything The Punisher is about is right there in the name. He's not about defending innocent people, he's about punishing the guilty. Its about retribution. It is not at all a good thing for groups of soldiers to be running around thinking of themselves as The Punisher.
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Mar 11, 2015 19:10
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mugrim posted:His book actually references defending other soldiers far more than defending America, though he does state that every dead Iraqi made him feel like America is safer. The creators of the patch were Nazis?
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Mar 11, 2015 19:13
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The punisher skull is pretty common among combat arms because it's cool, not because of any deeper meaning. You are reading way too into that.
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Mar 11, 2015 20:01
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Cole posted:The punisher skull is pretty common among combat arms because it's cool, not because of any deeper meaning. You are reading way too into that. The quote was Kyle's own words. He openly states what he feels it symbolizes. It says we're there to kill wrong doers and make them fear us. It says we're badass.
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Mar 11, 2015 20:23
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mugrim posted:Pretty easily actually, we had a valid cause for war (specifically being attacked). I don't think all violence is unnecessary or wrong. When Germany attacked us you mean? Basebf555 posted:The quote was Kyle's own words. He openly states what he feels it symbolizes. I stand corrected.
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Mar 11, 2015 20:37
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If you're wearing skulls you're probably the bad guys.
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Mar 11, 2015 21:36
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Cole posted:When Germany attacked us you mean? The Axis powers attacked the Greer and Pearl Harbor in 1941. Days later Germany officially declared war on the US.
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Mar 11, 2015 22:13
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mugrim posted:The Axis powers attacked the Greer and Pearl Harbor in 1941. Days later Germany officially declared war on the US. Actually the axis powers had nothing to do with the attack on Pearl Harbor other than one of the axis powers carrying it out. Hitler had no idea what happened until after the fact. It was Japan all the way and only Japan.
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Mar 11, 2015 23:56
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It feels like you are trying to create a parallel between Germany / Japan and Iraq / Afghanistan, but that's a really, really poor argument.
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Mar 12, 2015 01:12
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If we were being honest, we would've been stomping the poo poo out of Saudi Arabia in January 2002.
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Mar 12, 2015 01:40
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Cole posted:Actually the axis powers had nothing to do with the attack on Pearl Harbor other than one of the axis powers carrying it out. Hitler had no idea what happened until after the fact. Actually there were multiple US vessels (military and civilian) attacked by Uboats in the Atlantic prior to the declaration, thus the mention of the Greer prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. There were others as well.
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Mar 12, 2015 02:39
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Cole posted:This is a horrible way to look at it. Yeah, that's a fair enough point. I can understand how a soldier's unique experiences might lead to them harboring hate towards the ethnicity involved. I realize that it's unfair to think that a soldier is a terrible person for forming racist beliefs as a result of his/her experiences in war. That being said, I do think that it says something bad about the person (or at least worse than the people who don't react with hate) and that we shouldn't make excuses for them. Unless it's specifically co-morbid with PTSD, I think we can safely attribute soldier bigotry to the same hate and ignorance to which we attribute anyone else's bigotry.
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Mar 12, 2015 05:01
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, that's a fair enough point. I can understand how a soldier's unique experiences might lead to them harboring hate towards the ethnicity involved. I realize that it's unfair to think that a soldier is a terrible person for forming racist beliefs as a result of his/her experiences in war. That being said, I do think that it says something bad about the person (or at least worse than the people who don't react with hate) and that we shouldn't make excuses for them. Unless it's specifically co-morbid with PTSD, I think we can safely attribute soldier bigotry to the same hate and ignorance to which we attribute anyone else's bigotry. There's also a big gap between knowing what causes it and excusing it, never mind condoning it.
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Mar 12, 2015 05:42
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Ytlaya posted:Unless it's specifically co-morbid with PTSD, I think we can safely attribute soldier bigotry to the same hate and ignorance to which we attribute anyone else's bigotry. I don't think it can be as clear-cut as all that. People grow to hate and fear anything they live in constant threat of, and if your enemy's hiding in plain sight as happens with an insurgency it's impossible to not treat the general populace with some measure of fear, suspicion or even loathing as a pure survival mechanism. Any bigotry a soldier brings back with him is often merely baggage from that, a learned behaviour picked up like muscle memory. Dehumanising the "enemy" makes them easier to kill, which is terrible, but if it's easier to kill potentially dangerous potential enemies it's much easier to stay alive in a warzone. Politics, ideology and personal prejudice all take a backseat when brute survival is at stake. As a Brit, I've heard practically nothing of this movie beyond this thread. Any european goons in this discussion have info on how the movie was received in their country? I took one look at the promotion and marketing for the film and saw it as tonally similar to Act of Valor(sic) and other rah-rah jingo kill-the-hajis-for-our-freedoms movies a frightening right wing gun nut acquaintance of mine keeps linking me trailers of on youtube.
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Mar 12, 2015 22:33
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Basebf555 posted:Maybe time to close the thread? Just throwing it out there. Nah man. Just cuz it's not a hugbox but full of dissent and argument doesn't make it not entertaining or informative. The movie honestly made people talk about the meaning to them and to the world of 9/11 and the Iraqi War more than most pop culture could ever dream of. When a movie or any work can stir oppositional views as people see contradictory reflections and draw varied conclusions of their own or others sense of meaning that is what a discussion forum is all about, to get mad and argue over who's right and why. Clint Eastwood is a legendary filmmaker for a reason even if you think this one is full of poo poo. Fact is Eastwood is proud of it and tried to put an unbiased but full of conviction and sense of righteousness depiction of a controversial man in a controversial war and it exploded all over the country. Good for him haha. Ytlaya posted:I think we can safely attribute soldier bigotry to the same hate and ignorance to which we attribute anyone else's bigotry. No way man. People are trying to kill each other daily in a warzone. It does nothing but reinforce real harmful thinking. Prob very hard until you get years of reflection, therapy, and wisdom to separate the desperate sense of hate fear anxiety thrill, all the adrenaline and atrocities and suffering, from everyday civilian life. Like you go see someone get gangraped abused tortured whatever for months becoming years by a specific subgroup of people and that trauma, which may surface in bigoted black and white prejudiced thinking, may linger over a lifetime unless they learn to cope and heal and forgive. Shaming ppl as bigots prob is the opposite as offering a war buddy time to go shoot guns at the range and relax with, which sounds like a misguided therapeutic healing methodology to combat traumatic self reinforcing thinking like becoming racist and hateful and drunk after a war. That's something Chris Kyle sounds like he could've evolved into an advocate for with time himself. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 11:17
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TomViolence posted:As a Brit, I've heard practically nothing of this movie beyond this thread. Any european goons in this discussion have info on how the movie was received in their country? I took one look at the promotion and marketing for the film and saw it as tonally similar to Act of Valor(sic) and other rah-rah jingo kill-the-hajis-for-our-freedoms movies a frightening right wing gun nut acquaintance of mine keeps linking me trailers of on youtube. Most of the posters I saw in up London ended up defaced pretty quickly: 
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Mar 13, 2015 11:22
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Smoothrich posted:No way man. People are trying to kill each other daily in a warzone. It does nothing but reinforce real harmful thinking. Prob very hard until you get years of reflection, therapy, and wisdom to separate the desperate sense of hate fear anxiety thrill, all the adrenaline and atrocities and suffering, from everyday civilian life. Like you go see someone get gangraped abused tortured whatever for months becoming years by a specific subgroup of people and that trauma, which may surface in bigoted black and white prejudiced thinking, may linger over a lifetime unless they learn to cope and heal and forgive. Shaming ppl as bigots prob is the opposite as offering a war buddy time to go shoot guns at the range and relax with, which sounds like a misguided therapeutic healing methodology to combat traumatic self reinforcing thinking like becoming racist and hateful and drunk after a war. That's something Chris Kyle sounds like he could've evolved into an advocate for with time himself. I'm sure the guy who talks about finding the WMDs in Iraq in his book is a forthright individual.
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Mar 13, 2015 11:54
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But was he talking about the previous definition of things like gas-filled ballistic missiles, or the new definition under which lunchbox-sized IEDs would qualify?
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Mar 13, 2015 12:05
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Sounds delusional. A symptom of mental health imbalance. Like self justification for needless suffering he endured and inflicted on others. Making sense of trauma. The human brain will create connections or experiences and memories that aren't really there to cease self doubt like cognitive dissonance, believing in a mission that was ultimately meaningless and fraudulent. Not justifying a man who falsified his testimonies in war but simply offering a possibility to explain why he may of felt compelled to do so. He's dead now so he'll never be able to self reflect and heal and be honest though.
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Mar 13, 2015 12:07
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Smoothrich posted:Nah man. Just cuz it's not a hugbox but full of dissent and argument doesn't make it not entertaining or informative. The movie honestly made people talk about the meaning to them and to the world of 9/11 and the Iraqi War more than most pop culture could ever dream of. When a movie or any work can stir oppositional views as people see contradictory reflections and draw varied conclusions of their own or others sense of meaning that is what a discussion forum is all about, to get mad and argue over who's right and why. Oh poo poo, now I get it. Forums are where you're supposed to talk about stuff. Thanks MAN.
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Mar 13, 2015 14:03
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Panzeh posted:I'm sure the guy who talks about finding the WMDs in Iraq in his book is a forthright individual. War Making Devices.
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Mar 13, 2015 15:09
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Military groupies are really loving creepy.
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Mar 13, 2015 18:49
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Hah, I love how even British graffiti is polite. Like multiple people offered coherent commentary and someone that disagrees just says "get a grip" instead of spraypainting "gently caress you" next to a giant dong or something. Anyways, keep in mind that Kyle blatantly lied about more than just WMDs. He also lied about: Punching Jessie Ventura Shooting looters from the roof of the Superdome Shooting some carjackers and giving the police a secret phone number to get him off the hook
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Mar 13, 2015 19:13
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Hah, I love how even British graffiti is polite. Like multiple people offered coherent commentary and someone that disagrees just says "get a grip" instead of spraypainting "gently caress you" next to a giant dong or something. What stands out how dumb, easily disprovable and generally terrible these lies are. I could come up with better self-aggrandizing lies in the time it takes to take a dump.
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Mar 13, 2015 19:21
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sean10mm posted:What stands out how dumb, easily disprovable and generally terrible these lies are. I could come up with better self-aggrandizing lies in the time it takes to take a dump. Yeah he was just a blowhard running his mouth like Michelle Bachmann or Sarah Palin etc probably to get praise and attention by Fox News media types to buy his book while also seemingly was legit crazy. Volatile PR hound PTSD ridden dude conflating fantasy with marketing and real experience. He probably didn't even have to lie to get press with his military decorations but did anyways cuz meh why not no one is truthful when they are pitching something anyways in some media circles. Possibly had press agents handling him to embellish poo poo too for book sales and Hollywood buzz indulging and encouraging him. All speculative but hey whatever sensationalism sells. His bizarre death tho simply makes harsh judgement feel distasteful to me since he can't defend himself in the press.
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Mar 13, 2015 23:39
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ozmunkeh posted:Military groupies are really loving creepy. It's like those women who marry convicted murderers by correspondence.
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Mar 14, 2015 02:38
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TomViolence posted:I don't think it can be as clear-cut as all that. People grow to hate and fear anything they live in constant threat of, and if your enemy's hiding in plain sight as happens with an insurgency it's impossible to not treat the general populace with some measure of fear, suspicion or even loathing as a pure survival mechanism. Any bigotry a soldier brings back with him is often merely baggage from that, a learned behaviour picked up like muscle memory. Dehumanising the "enemy" makes them easier to kill, which is terrible, but if it's easier to kill potentially dangerous potential enemies it's much easier to stay alive in a warzone. Politics, ideology and personal prejudice all take a backseat when brute survival is at stake. Well it's a good thing then that military service in the United States is entirely voluntary, and nobody is coerced or even really pressured into doing this, isn't it? Like this argument works for your racist grandpa who fought at Guadalcanal in WW2, but it doesn't really work for a dude who explicitly wanted to and volunteered to go murder Arab civilians
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Mar 15, 2015 08:23
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