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DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!



SunAndSpring posted:

Edit: ^Oblivion's enjoyable if you tear the level scaling out and get rid of the potato-faced people. It's got some really memorable quests.

These don't solve the biggest problem with the game, that being the most boring and generic game world they could possibly have created. After how imaginative Morrowind's world was, Oblivion was an absolute drag.I guess you can mod some fun into the game with a total conversion mod?

Frankly, saying a game is fun as long as you mod it is pretty damning to begin with. I played Morrowind for some 700 hours on the Xbox before I owned a PC capable of playing it.

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SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013



Freakazoid_ posted:

I never made this connection. It's so obvious now!

I like TES lore, but trying to talk to anyone about it is a case in futility. Either they have no idea what I'm talking about or they take anything Kirkbride said post-departure as canon and assume I already know.

gently caress Pelinal being a cyborg from the future. That is some shark jumping bullshit.

Also, while I was aware of Morrowind, Oblivion was my first elder scrolls and I enjoyed it quite a bit.

The whole Pelinal-being-an-android thing is subtle, but he's definitely from the future, considering he's wearing plate mail in a time where no one but Dwemer had it and he screams about the 2nd Era Emperor Reman while helping establish the 1st Empire.

^Well, at least there's Shivering Isles. That was pretty fun.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


Yeah, there are pretty much two camps to TES Lore: the regular camp of people whom enjoy the lore, read the books, but ultimately don't delve too deeply down the Kirkbride rabbit hole, and those who do, and assume that everything he says not only is canon, but true, two words that in TES have very different meanings. In addition, a lot of the stuff he writes is just clever meta-commentary on gameplay mechanics, like the long-running theory that CHIM is the ability to use the editing tools.

I suppose as far as MK lore, an idea that I really like from it is that, in a weird way, just because you're the player character doesn't mean you're the only one who has the sort of abilities that a player has. Like the idea that you're not the only one who can save and load.

Davoren posted:

I'm just working through the novels now, out of desire to see what happened to the world in 200 years, a little disappointed that most of it seems to be set in their weird floating city rather than Tamriel, but whatevs.

As a Morrowind fan, it does me good to hear House Redoran actually repelled the Argonian invasion instead of what the books say happened, where can I find out more about that?

Dragonborn is the source of all non-Novel post-Morrowind Morrowind lore. The story of the novels were almost completely ignored, the only value the books now have is that they were the only window into Tamriel post-Oblivion until Skyrim came out, and that's now been supplanted.

Ms Adequate
Oct 29, 2011

Horned hellgod from another dimension and also trans


Sky Shadowing posted:

Yeah, there are pretty much two camps to TES Lore: the regular camp of people whom enjoy the lore, read the books, but ultimately don't delve too deeply down the Kirkbride rabbit hole, and those who do, and assume that everything he says not only is canon, but true, two words that in TES have very different meanings. In addition, a lot of the stuff he writes is just clever meta-commentary on gameplay mechanics, like the long-running theory that CHIM is the ability to use the editing tools.

I suppose as far as MK lore, an idea that I really like from it is that, in a weird way, just because you're the player character doesn't mean you're the only one who has the sort of abilities that a player has. Like the idea that you're not the only one who can save and load.


Dragonborn is the source of all non-Novel post-Morrowind Morrowind lore. The story of the novels were almost completely ignored, the only value the books now have is that they were the only window into Tamriel post-Oblivion until Skyrim came out, and that's now been supplanted.

Hey now. I think pretty much everything MK says is canon, but I don't think it's all true. But Pikestaff can go into detail about how and why TES (or more specifically Morrowind) lore works and how the fandom approaches it, if she feels so inclined. If not I'll take a stab at it myself later, but for now I'm off to eat dinner, which is sadly real world food rather than an ash yam and some flin.

e; Okay so basically I guess the best way to explain how I see the lore is that it's an 'open source' lore community. Essentially, while the games provide a lot of the lore as a basis, there's also a lot outside of it - and not just from MK. If I sit down and write a fanfic or something, if the fandom at large thinks "Yeah that's pretty cool and makes sense", then it is itself considered canon lore. This method of building everything up in such a fashion where the community contributes as much as anyone actually making official games is really interesting to me, and sure you've got the typical problems with any fandom, but a lot of cool ideas come out of it as well. The whole basis of Morrowind was that you really have to decide for yourself what most things mean and what really happened during [Event X], so just export that to the lore as a whole. If you think something in Skyrim was dumb as poo poo, ignore it. If you think something Kirkbride wrote on his website while drunk is cool, include it. If you like Trainwiz's mods (and you should because he's a mad genius), consider them canon.

Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2015 around 18:10

Pikestaff
Feb 17, 2013

Arienai!


Mister Adequate posted:

But Pikestaff can go into detail about how and why TES (or more specifically Morrowind) lore works and how the fandom approaches it, if she feels so inclined. If not I'll take a stab at it myself later, but for now I'm off to eat dinner, which is sadly real world food rather than an ash yam and some flin.

Putting me on the spot There are other people in the thread who are much more into this than me I'm sure.

My own way that I approach TES fanlore is basically that both everything and nothing is canon. It's sort of the point MK was trying to drive home in C0DA except without all the weird Dune references and other typical Kirkbridian what-the-fuckery.

TES lore and MK lore are both fun to play with, and whether or not I consider the latter "canon" really has to do with how much fun I can have with individual bits of it. It's all really kind of flexible in the TES universe.

Anyways, back to the real world. I keep trying to like Oblivion and the potato faces keep driving me off. Did they ever invent a decent face mod that doesn't turn everyone into an anime girl or whatever?

Cantorsdust
Aug 9, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Top Cop

Hey, only thing that needs to be canon is CHIM. Then you as the player are free to pick and choose your own canon for the rest.

Atrayonis
Jul 6, 2008

Godspeed, brave canary


MK lore should be considered with a big grain of salt ever since he started moving Gnosticism into the meta level.
For me, personally, I can buy most of the stuff he writes. CHIM is great, I don't like kalpas as a concept all that much, Lorkhan-as-everybody is pretty poo poo, KINMUE is mental masturbation, and I think Amaranth can go take a hike, but the fact that in his view the other continents apparently aren't real but different times/different amaranths is so godawful terrible that I can't help but stare at the people massaging his ego. Those that don't get to be the label of the dicks he sometimes draws on his tumblr anyway.

In the end, his lore results in nothing in the setting mattering since now TES is a convulted lession about enlightenment. That's not sound storytelling.


quote:

Anyways, back to the real world. I keep trying to like Oblivion and the potato faces keep driving me off. Did they ever invent a decent face mod that doesn't turn everyone into an anime girl or whatever?

Oblivion Character Overhaul 2 is what you are looking for. It's mostly hit and only sometimes miss (like Baurus, oh god Baurus), but that's pretty much the only character overhaul I'd consider applying a bandage instead of a plaster over the gaping wound of Oblivion's terrible, terrible characters.


\/\/\/

http://c0da.es/

Atrayonis fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2015 around 18:37

DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!



Speaking of cannon, where is that absolutely batshit crazy Elder Scrolls story...thing that the dude who came up with the lore made? All I remember is something about Vivec busting out of a TV or some poo poo.

Pikestaff
Feb 17, 2013

Arienai!


Atrayonis posted:

Oblivion Character Overhaul 2 is what you are looking for. It's mostly hit and only sometimes miss (like Baurus, oh god Baurus), but that's pretty much the only character overhaul I'd consider applying a bandage instead of a plaster over the gaping wound of Oblivion's terrible, terrible characters.

This looks fantastic, thanks. It actually kind of makes me want to play Oblivion!

Ms Adequate
Oct 29, 2011

Horned hellgod from another dimension and also trans


I'm agog at that character overhaul mod. Also someone mentioned Oblivion might be fun if you total converted it or something, and they were actually right, the Nehrim mod was an astonishing feat and entirely worth Oblivion's admission price just to be able to play it.

DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!




Yeah son. If you want to peer into absolute madness, read this poo poo.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


Mister Adequate posted:

Hey now. I think pretty much everything MK says is canon, but I don't think it's all true. But Pikestaff can go into detail about how and why TES (or more specifically Morrowind) lore works and how the fandom approaches it, if she feels so inclined. If not I'll take a stab at it myself later, but for now I'm off to eat dinner, which is sadly real world food rather than an ash yam and some flin.

Sorry, misstated my point. There's nothing wrong with TES lore as Kirkbride writes it. My main issue is with the people who think everything he writes is 100% true, regardless of anything. Like the idea that he wrote where the Empire tried to found a colony on the moons. So what he writes in my mind is as canon as anything else, but not necessarily true.

So basically my issue is with those people who you talk to and say "I believe this is true" and they say "no, THIS is true because MK posted THIS" and then refuse to acknowledge that you, personally, don't buy into ALL of MK's writings.

I did make sure to state in the OP that all lore is subjective and all opinions are valid.

Ms Adequate
Oct 29, 2011

Horned hellgod from another dimension and also trans


Sky Shadowing posted:

Sorry, misstated my point. There's nothing wrong with TES lore as Kirkbride writes it. My main issue is with the people who think everything he writes is 100% true, regardless of anything. Like the idea that he wrote where the Empire tried to found a colony on the moons. So what he writes in my mind is as canon as anything else, but not necessarily true.

So basically my issue is with those people who you talk to and say "I believe this is true" and they say "no, THIS is true because MK posted THIS" and then refuse to acknowledge that you, personally, don't buy into ALL of MK's writings.

I did make sure to state in the OP that all lore is subjective and all opinions are valid.

That was what I was trying to get at as well, but yeah it does mean you have to respect other people having different interpretations of the lore. Anyway we're all on the same page here

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013



While you can take things MK says with a grain of salt, it's clear that he still has quite a bit of influence with the developers. Certain details from his stuff post-departure has made it into the games. Painted cows as offerings to the giants, the final Dragon Priest mask you find in the dungeon outside of time having tusks in reference to Aka-Tusk, and so on are from works he made during the development of Skyrim, so it seems like they're still following his plans somewhat.

Atrayonis
Jul 6, 2008

Godspeed, brave canary


That's their own grain of salt I think. The Red King once Jungled (which he wrote in the terrible time just after the Oblivion release) made it into Skyrim as the ravings of a mad preacher, for example. A wink and nod to the lore gurus, nothing more.
TES games will never actually feature Landfall, for example.

Atrayonis fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2015 around 19:22

Pikestaff
Feb 17, 2013

Arienai!


If only there was a TES game involving those interdimensional Vehkships and Mothships from the Ninth Era or whatever that was.

It will never happen, but I can dream.

Berke Negri
Feb 15, 2012

Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao




Elder Scrolls moon colonies are the only lore that makes sense.

A lot of people seem to forget that Kirkbride still has a direct influence in the series and works with Bethesda creatively, if even in an informal sense. Like, if I recall from an AMA he did at least a read through and provided comments for the draft on Skyrim, and stuff like Alduin and kalpas and the Thalmor are all pretty cornerstone Kirkbride themes. I don't think he does any official writing for them (stuff like c0da excluded though its received winks and nods from Bethesda) but he's still on good terms with the team.

BillBear
Mar 13, 2013

Ask me about running my country straight into the ground every time I play EU4 multiplayer.

Oblivion might have some serious flaws, but the quest where you are locked in that manor and you have to kill everyone by not getting caught and at the same time trying to pin the murder on someone else is probably my favorite ES quest ever. Skyrim's guilds suck giant dick compared to Oblivion's.

Cantorsdust
Aug 9, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Top Cop

BillBear posted:

Oblivion might have some serious flaws, but the quest where you are locked in that manor and you have to kill everyone by not getting caught and at the same time trying to pin the murder on someone else is probably my favorite ES quest ever. Skyrim's guilds suck giant dick compared to Oblivion's.

The Oblivion thieves guild quest series is still probably the best guild storyline Bethesda has ever written.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013



I still dunno how they hosed up so hard on the guild quests. Did they fire or lose everyone who made the quests for Oblivion or something? I know that Emil is still around, but I guess he was busy because the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quest lines (which he worked on in Oblivion) sucked in Skyrim. I mean, seriously, how do you go from an interesting quest line in which they cleverly foreshadow all of the developments and ends on a great note to a quest line where you gotta save some rear end in a top hat's honey farm and sell your soul for nothing?

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo


I played the majority of my Oblivion on Xbox 360. At the time it came out, it was pretty fuckin boss. Had the best graphics of anything out.

Man Whore
Jan 6, 2012

ASK ME ABOUT SPHERICAL CATS
=3





C0da is really dumb, don't waste your time.

Atrayonis
Jul 6, 2008

Godspeed, brave canary


Berke Negri posted:

Elder Scrolls moon colonies are the only lore that makes sense.

A lot of people seem to forget that Kirkbride still has a direct influence in the series and works with Bethesda creatively, if even in an informal sense. Like, if I recall from an AMA he did at least a read through and provided comments for the draft on Skyrim, and stuff like Alduin and kalpas and the Thalmor are all pretty cornerstone Kirkbride themes. I don't think he does any official writing for them (stuff like c0da excluded though its received winks and nods from Bethesda) but he's still on good terms with the team.
Yes, but on the other hand, the other developers keep most of the crazy out. Moon colonies, Mananauts and Sunbirds are not the crazy stuff, continents-as-Amaranths and KINMUE are.

Man Whore
Jan 6, 2012

ASK ME ABOUT SPHERICAL CATS
=3





Mister Adequate posted:

Okay so basically I guess the best way to explain how I see the lore is that it's an 'open source' lore community. Essentially, while the games provide a lot of the lore as a basis, there's also a lot outside of it - and not just from MK. If I sit down and write a fanfic or something, if the fandom at large thinks "Yeah that's pretty cool and makes sense", then it is itself considered canon lore. This method of building everything up in such a fashion where the community contributes as much as anyone actually making official games is really interesting to me, and sure you've got the typical problems with any fandom, but a lot of cool ideas come out of it as well.

I keep seeing people say this but all that "outside lore" was written by devs or former devs. If I write a story about how cliffracers nested in hammerfell and the community takes that as gospel, it doesn't mean bethesda is going to include it in TES VI.
of course there is a chance they will if a dev sees it and likes it but the same is probably true of any game.

Man Whore fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2015 around 19:55

GreatGreen
Jul 3, 2007

THIS IS HOW YOU REMIND ME OF WHAT I REALLY AM
*stumbles on reload and dies to a Nightstalker Super during Quick Play*


Somebody figured out how to port Daggerfall to Unity. It's basically Daggerfall with a hugely increased draw distance.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/01/25/daggerfall-tools-for-unity/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6vwPa2vcRY

Pikestaff
Feb 17, 2013

Arienai!


Man Whore posted:

I keep seeing people say this but all that "outside lore" was written by devs or former devs. If I write a story about how cliffracers nested in hammerfell and the community takes that as gospel, it doesn't mean bethesda is going to include it in TES VI.
of course there is a chance they will if a dev sees it and likes it but the same is probably true of any game.

I could be wrong but I think he's talking about how it becomes lore in the community, rather than becoming game lore.

Anyways, someday I'm going to beat Arena and Daggerfall. I've put a lot of time into them both, but never beaten them.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


I got to the last dungeon of Daggerfall once, but stopped there. Was cheating my rear end off, though.

Ms Adequate
Oct 29, 2011

Horned hellgod from another dimension and also trans


Pikestaff posted:

I could be wrong but I think he's talking about how it becomes lore in the community, rather than becoming game lore.

Yeah that's what I meant. Doesn't mean it's going to be in TES VI or anything, but then TES VI isn't likely to include very much relevant to the Nerevarine Prophecy and what exactly happened between Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal at Red Mountain, either. I mean I guess what I'm trying to say is TES has an informal 'headcanon' shared between the community that doesn't find its way into the games, but which is accepted by community members (to a greater or lesser extent) to still be canonical lore (again, as Sky Shadowing said, not necessarily the same thing as true).

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo


I just want a game as good as Fallout: New Vegas with a world the size of Daggerfall. Is that so much to ask?

Cantorsdust
Aug 9, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Top Cop

There used to be a YCS poster who was really big on Daggerfall being the best TES game. Liesmith, I think. I wonder whatever happened to him.

Pikestaff
Feb 17, 2013

Arienai!


I recall someone, somewhere, posting a huge angry rant about how Arena was the best TES game and everything after Arena was all downhill. Like, whatever floats your boat, but it's certainly not an opinion I see every day.

Berke Negri
Feb 15, 2012

Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao




Cantorsdust posted:

There used to be a YCS poster who was really big on Daggerfall being the best TES game. Liesmith, I think. I wonder whatever happened to him.

Got trapped in a randomly generated never ending dungeon after his last save got corrupted, probably.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


gently caress, Tamriel was originally a homebrew DnD setting, though it unknown how much of it was actually in line with even Arena.

So somewhere out there there's probably some old guy who whispers angrily to himself that Bethesda ruined Tamriel when they severed it from DnD and made Arena.

Everyone has an opinion, though I will admit Arena being the best is a rare one.

Agents are GO!
Dec 29, 2004

In my day, we crossed burning sand every day -- and liked it!

Pikestaff posted:

This looks fantastic, thanks. It actually kind of makes me want to play Oblivion!

Just keep in mind it turns all the black people in the game white.

Kraven Moorhed
Jan 5, 2006

So wrong, yet so right.

Soiled Meat

Agents are GO! posted:

Just keep in mind it turns all the black people in the game white.

Is that under the "bugs" or "features" list? You never know with

Edit: Also, please change the ESO section to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCTVxZxxZi0

Edit Edit: vvv

Kraven Moorhed fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2015 around 20:45

Ms Adequate
Oct 29, 2011

Horned hellgod from another dimension and also trans


Kraven Moorhed posted:

Is that under the "bugs" or "features" list? You never know with

Edit: Also, please change the ESO section to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCTVxZxxZi0

Holy poo poo, I made that

Pikestaff
Feb 17, 2013

Arienai!


Agents are GO! posted:

Just keep in mind it turns all the black people in the game white.

Seriously?

Well poo poo.

Agents are GO!
Dec 29, 2004

In my day, we crossed burning sand every day -- and liked it!

Pikestaff posted:

Seriously?

Well poo poo.



Maybe it's because I can't run ENB, but they're even paler in my game. It's still a good mod, just... troublesome.

Edit: I just noticed that the female imperial looks high as gently caress in those pics.

Man Whore
Jan 6, 2012

ASK ME ABOUT SPHERICAL CATS
=3





Yeah I don't know what the deal with Redguard in that mod is. Some of them look fine but others are light enough to where I'll confuse them with imperials until they talk. Khajiit look reeeeaaaally weird to me though.

I still think its worth it though.

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Mr. Fortitude
Jul 9, 2010


I actually kind of like Arena, janky as it is. It's simple and not huge in scope but at least the dungeons were handcrafted and you could actually read the ingame map and drop little notes everywhere. Daggerfall is much more ambitious but I feel the random dungeon generation and incomprehensible 3D map screen make it less fun to actually play.

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