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Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


Superstring posted:

Can't they just, I dunno, take the landmass that's already modeled for TES:O and use it for TES VI? I want payoff for the Thalmor stuff.

I'd rather they didn't, Online is unfortunately rather generic. Imagine the same amount of detail you got for Skyrim, but instead of one Province it's all of Tamriel. Like the same amount of butter used on one piece of toast spread over nine.

For example, Morrowind has only Indoril style architecture (think Mournhold from Tribunal). No Redoran crab houses, no Telvanni mushroom towers, no Hlaalu buildings. I'm pretty sure it's one style of architecture per race in Online.

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Davoren
Aug 14, 2003

The devil you say!



I feel with the two hundred year time jump, the changes to the Empire and all the stuff about the Aldmeri Dominion, they're going to be going for a continuing storyline, at least for the next game. I'm hoping we'll get Valenwood and Sumurset, but they'll probably go less weird and go for Hammerfell.

I really need to get back into the in game lore. In Daggerfall I read every book I found, but since then I always just pick them up to read later, which never comes, especially in Skyrim where they let you fill up your fancy bookshelves.

Scyantific
Feb 13, 2011

Awaken, Tribunal


Superstring posted:

Can't they just, I dunno, take the landmass that's already modeled for TES:O and use it for TES VI? I want payoff for the Thalmor stuff.

Hammerfell WOULD be a payoff for the Thalmor stuff. Having to reunite Hammerfell with what remains of the Empire (assuming you took the side of the Imperials in Skyrim) through some political machinations and occasional elf/human traitor slaughtering would be cool.

On top of that I'd like to see a game where they take some of the poo poo that came out of Skyrim modding (mainly Frostfall and iNeed/RN&D) and make it a base feature (a la hardcore mode from NV). A title based in a desert environment would be perfect for that (managing heat exposure, staying fed and hydrated, etc.)

Gameplay-wise, I'll just post what I posted back in the Skyrim subforum threads a while back

quote:

What I want to see:
-Useful skill trees, not overpowered ones (archery) or useless ones (alteration). I figured that since they took out Acrobatics from Oblivion, they'd at least do some movement enhancing spells in the Alteration tree, but nope.
-Use seorin's passive skill leveling as a base. None of this stupid "waste 5 perk points to make a skill actually useful" poo poo. And perks that are actually useful, not just filler crap.
-Weapon & armor degradation. It's kind of boring to just buy/make gear, upgrade it, and never have to worry about it going bad ever.
-A built-in Hardcore mode like New Vegas. Maybe toss in weather adaptation like Frostfall too.
-Synergy between the schools of magic.
-Make the different weapon styles actually different, so people don't just default to sword and board the whole way.
-Bring back Oblivion's morality system.
-Better questlines, less of the "Hey yeah you started two days ago, but you saved the guild so we're making you leader" like the Companions and more like "I run this poo poo, you may have saved us from the vampire menace, but I'm still in charge here," like the Dawnguard. Make the small sidejobs actually count before progressing through the questlines. Oh and make them actually take your skillset into account, so you don't end up running the warrior's guild as a lanky mage-type.

quote:

Another thing. Make training actually worthwhile. Not just some stupid "here's some cash, please give me 5 skill ups" thing; make training actually train you in whatever you're training for. Like:

-Archery? Here's a bow and some arrows, go hunt me down 5 bears and bring me their pelts.
-Alchemy? Go find me these ingredients, and make me this potion and bring it to me.

quote:

It'd be awesome if they went back to Morrowind's loot system while removing the dumb loot scaling system, and made the economy a lot more brutal.

Smithing
Maybe they could make it so that if you start as an Orc, you could craft Orcish weapons and armor from the start. Or maybe if you roll Altmer, you already had the knowledge of crafting with Moonstone. And toss Dwarven crafting straight out the window. Even the best goddamn blacksmiths couldn't reproduce Dwarven metal/weapons/armors, so why the gently caress does the PC get sudden magical knowledge on how they work. Make all Dwarven stuff artifacts, and stick them in either museums, private houses owned by super rich/powerful people, or in dwarven ruins, guarded by automatons, but make them pretty high-tier, because the Dwemer were pretty goddamn good at crafting. They could introduce some sort of Blacksmith's guild, and add a questline in there that doesn't make you leader of said guild, but instead granted you knowledge on how to craft different materials as you proceeded to the questline, culminating in a final quest where you ventured into a Daedric realm in some sort of crazy rear end plan to craft an entire set of Daedric armor, either for yourself, or for some schlub who couldn't bother to do it himself (at which point you doublecross said client and keep the stuff for yourself). Each major city would have a guildhall, and specific guildhalls would have a small questline to learn how to craft with a material type (Malachite/Glass, Ebony, Moonstone).

Alchemy
Basically the same as smithing, only with alchemical ingredients. Stuff like Human Hearts, Daedra Hearts, Human Flesh, and other very dangerous ingredients/potions would fall under some sort of contraband/illegal to make category that would only be sellable in black markets, and getting caught with them would land you a high bounty/jail time and said items would immediately be confiscated.

Enchanting
Once again, the same as the previous two, only with enchantments. Also, they should branch out the enchantments completely, ranking them from Minor all the way to Peerless. Minor up to Major type enchantments would be found throughout the game world, while items with the higher level enchantments (Extreme, Peerless) would fall under the artifact category. Learning and using one of those two should also lead to a choice: Do you disenchant/learn the enchantment and destroy the item itself, or do you keep the enchanted item (This one will make sense in a bit)? Again, stuff like Black Soul Gems would fall under the illegal category, and will land you in jail for possesion of those items if you're caught committing a crime.

Also, any crafting or upgrading (in the case of smithing) attempt should have a chance to fail completely. (see Enchanting thing I mentioned earlier) Why should the player character be able to perfectly craft items every single time? This always bothered me. I took this mainly from playing Ragnarok Online where alchemists and blacksmiths had to craft stuff, but had chances to fail while crafting or upgrading, and certain weapon/armor types were harder to craft and upgrade as well. Obviously the failure chance would decrease as your skill in that crafting tree went up, but you would still have that one chance to fail. This would also help alleviate the burden of grinding out gold necklaces of increase weight to level up smithing and enchanting, and then running out of places to sell them. It would also give players a choice when looting bodies: Do you loot their weapons and melt them down into scrap to help you get some crafting going, or do you leave them there? As mentioned earlier, the failure/success rate would also depend on the material being used. It'll be a lot easier to craft out Iron and Steel weapons, but they won't provide as much experience as, say, crafting Elven type stuff with Moonstone, which would also be harder to craft, but give out a lot more reward and exp.

Finally, for the love of god Bethesda, MAKE IT SO THAT SMITHING, ENCHANTING, AND ALCHEMY DON'T AFFECT YOUR OVERALL LEVEL. Make them work on a separate system


Economy
Looking at what Trade & Barter does, they seem to have an idea of how to make sure you don't end up ultra-rich in like 10 levels. It'd be cool if your skillset was taken into account when trading. For instance, the higher your crafting skills (alchemy, enchanting, smithing), the better prices you'll get from their respective markets (Alchemists, Enchanters/Magic Item Sellers, Blacksmiths). Relationships should probably be taken into account too. You do a favor for a local merchant, and now that merchant likes you enough so that whenever you purchase from them, you get better prices. The same thing should apply for factions. Joined the mages guild? Have a discount on scrolls, spell tomes, and enchanted items! Fighter's Guild/Companions/some warrior-type guild? Blacksmiths now sell you weapons and armor for less. Hell even joining the Imperial Legion should get you discounts across the board. Race should also factor in too. Like for instance, Khajits can sell to Khajit caravans no problem, but they'll get a lot less for their items in a major city given their reputation.

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice


Is there even going to be a TESVI?

Cantorsdust
Aug 9, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Top Cop

GrumpyDoctor posted:

Is there even going to be a TESVI?

It's supposedly in development, but they aren't ready to show anything yet.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


Yes. I think the 200 year jump was a bit of a soft reboot of the setting. Plus, franchises that print money generally don't stop being made.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!


Scyantific posted:

Another thing. Make training actually worthwhile. Not just some stupid "here's some cash, please give me 5 skill ups" thing; make training actually train you in whatever you're training for. Like:

-Archery? Here's a bow and some arrows, go hunt me down 5 bears and bring me their pelts.
-Alchemy? Go find me these ingredients, and make me this potion and bring it to me.

Yeah that's exactly what my already hundred hour single player RPG needs, more MMO style time wasting. You could get the same effect by having an actual tutorial for the smaller game mechanics and keeping trainers actually useful like they are now.

DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!



Agents are GO! posted:

2. Why does Bethesda never include the more distinctive weird stuff in the games? You'd think when people have ported Morrowind into two seperate engines, they'd get the idea that "hey, people like this stuff!"

Laziness.

Oblivion felt so compared to Morrowind that it was stunning. They even changed the lore to make it easier to model Cyrodiil. Skyrim also felt kinda lazy in terms of architecture and whatnot, though at least the game world itself was better.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013



I wonder if Bethesda will ever stop being pussies and will actually talk with fans about their games like they used to before people chewed them out over Oblivion and their various design decisions.

Like, didn't Ken Rolston admit that he made Cyrodiil a standard fantasy land so LOTR movie fans would buy the game?

Ms Adequate
Oct 29, 2011

Horned hellgod from another dimension and also trans


SunAndSpring posted:

I wonder if Bethesda will ever stop being pussies and will actually talk with fans about their games like they used to before people chewed them out over Oblivion and their various design decisions.

No, because although a lot of us want things to be a lot more exciting and interesting a la Morrowind, a hell of a lot of people bought Oblivion and Skyrim. At least Skyrim wasn't in a generic medieval England, though, it was interesting enough that it was more disappointment at missed opportunity than outright boring in itself. And I can't fault a game where you can kill Briarhearts by pickpocketing their briar hearts too strongly.

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006




Cubey posted:

Laziness.

Oblivion felt so compared to Morrowind that it was stunning. They even changed the lore to make it easier to model Cyrodiil. Skyrim also felt kinda lazy in terms of architecture and whatnot, though at least the game world itself was better.

I think it might just be a case of playing it safe from the executives. When you have a game that was as big as Morrowind in terms of sales, executives start to get nervous about straying too far from the generic, acceptable genre formula for any sequels, since it might end up dynamiting your main moneymaker if it does poorly (see Breath of Fire 5; it took huge risks with its gameplay and dramatically changed the visual style and story of the Breath of Fire series, which ended up sending the series to the dustbin).

anatomi
Jan 31, 2015


Didn't Morrowind do well, though?

Cantorsdust
Aug 9, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Top Cop

anatomi posted:

Didn't Morrowind do well, though?

Like 4 million copies, which is amazingly well considering it came out only for the PC and the original Xbox, which was not the popular console at the time. Oblivion did better, but a large part of that is because it came out on the 360.

DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!



Vermain posted:

I think it might just be a case of playing it safe from the executives. When you have a game that was as big as Morrowind in terms of sales, executives start to get nervous about straying too far from the generic, acceptable genre formula for any sequels, since it might end up dynamiting your main moneymaker if it does poorly (see Breath of Fire 5; it took huge risks with its gameplay and dramatically changed the visual style and story of the Breath of Fire series, which ended up sending the series to the dustbin).

That doesn't even make sense. The whole reason Morrowind caught on was because of how different and weird it was than anything else. People were able to forgive the frankly massive flaws in Morrowind because the world was so interesting that it more than made up for the jankiness.

Cantorsdust posted:

Like 4 million copies, which is amazingly well considering it came out only for the PC and the original Xbox, which was not the popular console at the time. Oblivion did better, but a large part of that is because it came out on the 360.

As far as I can tell, Morrowind has actually sold more copies than Oblivion. The latest figures for Oblivion are from this year at 4.3 million, whereas the latest figure I can find from Morrowind are at over 4 million, and that figure is from 2005. I bet Morrowind is probably at over a million more copies sold by this point.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


Skyrim was a solid step back towards Morrowind's unique lore, it may have been more generic but let's face it, Morrowind pretty much set the bar for western RPGs as far as interesting, but believable worlds.

I wouldn't be surprised to see High Rock in TES VI, and it could be interesting with the politics- Daggerfall's storyline was pretty much completely politics, and it was pretty interesting (despite the fact that some of the time it just didn't work, thanks to bugs).

Cubey posted:

As far as I can tell, Morrowind has actually sold more copies than Oblivion. The latest figures for Oblivion are from this year at 4.3 million, whereas the latest figure I can find from Morrowind are at over 4 million, and that figure is from 2005. I bet Morrowind is probably at over a million more copies sold by this point.

I'm pretty sure Skyrim has since shattered both Morrowind and Oblivion's records, in any case.

axolotl farmer
May 17, 2007

I had me a vision
there wasn't any television



Nap Ghost

Who in their right mind plays a TES game on a console?

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


axolotl farmer posted:

Who in their right mind plays a TES game on a console?

I played Oblivion on console... for about 8 months, until I got a powerful enough PC to run it. Shivering Isles was first purchased on PC, actually, that's how quickly I moved on.

Though I didn't even have any of the minor DLCs on PC apart from Battlehorn and KotN until I picked up the Anthology (mostly for the maps) and got them when I activated the Steam code.

DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!



axolotl farmer posted:

Who in their right mind plays a TES game on a console?

When Morrowind came out, my PC was an eMachines from 2000 running Windows ME. PC Morrowind was not an option.

I put in well over 700 hours on my Xbox save before I got a PC that could play Morrowind respectably.

GreatGreen
Jul 3, 2007

THIS IS HOW YOU REMIND ME OF WHAT I REALLY AM
*stumbles on reload and dies to a Nightstalker Super during Quick Play*


Vermain posted:

I think it might just be a case of playing it safe from the executives. When you have a game that was as big as Morrowind in terms of sales, executives start to get nervous about straying too far from the generic, acceptable genre formula for any sequels, since it might end up dynamiting your main moneymaker if it does poorly (see Breath of Fire 5; it took huge risks with its gameplay and dramatically changed the visual style and story of the Breath of Fire series, which ended up sending the series to the dustbin).

I understand having a job and not wanting the company you work for to go down the toilet from irresponsible financial decisions. What I don't understand is categorizing the very attributes that made your company a success in the first place as "financially irresponsible" like Bethesda seem to have done.

"Oh we made an unprecedented shitload of money by selling a product that was smart, innovative, and that took risks X, Y, and Z which turned out to be exactly what everybody wanted. For our next product, we'd better remove literally all that stuff and everything about what made the last one so special and let's make it as safe, accessible, and bland as possible. Man we're great executives!"

I think most of the reason Oblivion and Skyrim were successful is because of Morrowind, actually. People weren't really excited about "Oblivion," they were excited about what they thought was going to be Morrowind 2. Same with Skyrim. People were just as excited at the thought of Bethesda finally learning from their mistakes (Oblivion) and finally making the Morrowind 2 they'd been waiting for. Skyrim did have some decent qualities of its own, but nothing has touched the world building and pure open endedness of Morrowind still.

GreatGreen fucked around with this message at Feb 1, 2015 around 19:33

Freakazoid_
Jul 4, 2013

USPOL May

If they want to continue the theme of a region/culture's special power, Hammerfell has something called the sword singers. Basically remnants of redguard samurais that could wield spirit swords. It would need some updating to make it as versatile as the voice, but it's something that would probably market well.

Grizzwold
Jan 27, 2012

The ocean demands bacon


That would be great, if only so you could get the power to cause nuclear explosions with your sword.

quote:

"Surahoon," he said, "We are the ansu, the greatest warriors that live in men. Our swords sent the Left-Handers into the oceans, whose empire was four times the size of the white king. When we fight, our swords can kill the laws of nature itself. Yokuda is as you see it because our hira-dirg swords can cut the atomos, the uncuttable, and we did. We are the ansu, and we tell you now that you cannot beat the Ansu-Gurleht. How do you think he came by that name? Who do you think was our finest student?"

http://www.imperial-library.info/co...-cyrus-restless

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


MK has a lot of good ideas and interesting writings, but ultimately he does require a filter because let's face it, a game that's written completely like anything Kirkbride writes would bomb massively.

He's like a more crazy, but actually good, Vince Russo, to use a wrestling analogy.

FutonForensic
Nov 11, 2012



Grimey Drawer

I bet the next landmass is Hammerfell, if only because it'd allow Bethesda to recolor all their snow assets to sand. Tell me that isn't something they'd do!

Still holding out on Akavir. Just hoping it shows up in a proper game and not ES:O.

Berke Negri
Feb 15, 2012

Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao




They could easily take the maps from ESO and use them as a base for wherever they pick for TESVI considering that's basically what they did with the height maps from Oblivion and Skyrim in ESO for the regions of Cyrodiil and Skyrim. It'd look different, of course, and more detailed but you can put a map of the Rift and Eastmarch from Skyrim and ESO over each other and they're pretty close. Same with Cyrodiil.

The only provinces that are more or less represented in full though in ESO are High Rock (once Wrothgar is released as DLC) and Valenwood, I think.

Agents are GO!
Dec 29, 2004

In my day, we crossed burning sand every day -- and liked it!

FutonForensic posted:

I bet the next landmass is Hammerfell, if only because it'd allow Bethesda to recolor all their snow assets to sand. Tell me that isn't something they'd do!

Still holding out on Akavir. Just hoping it shows up in a proper game and not ES:O.

Actually, the decent quest mod Moonpath to Elsweyr does exactly that for some areas, and it actually looks pretty drat good.

Ojjeorago
Sep 21, 2008

I had a dream, too. It wasn't pleasant, though ... I dreamt I was a moron...


Gary’s Answer

You can't set a game in Akavir. It's a time, not a place.

Agents are GO!
Dec 29, 2004

In my day, we crossed burning sand every day -- and liked it!

Whizbang posted:

You can't set a game in Akavir. It's a time, not a place.

And so it begins.

Lord Windy
Mar 26, 2010


I want to play a Monkey Man

Ben Nerevarine
Apr 14, 2006

Magicka To Do


Like the description says. c0da makes it canon, and you can too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAPUVs1asFg

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

The Suffering of the Succotash.


GreatGreen posted:

I understand having a job and not wanting the company you work for to go down the toilet from irresponsible financial decisions. What I don't understand is categorizing the very attributes that made your company a success in the first place as "financially irresponsible" like Bethesda seem to have done.

"Oh we made an unprecedented shitload of money by selling a product that was smart, innovative, and that took risks X, Y, and Z which turned out to be exactly what everybody wanted. For our next product, we'd better remove literally all that stuff and everything about what made the last one so special and let's make it as safe, accessible, and bland as possible. Man we're great executives!"

I think most of the reason Oblivion and Skyrim were successful is because of Morrowind, actually. People weren't really excited about "Oblivion," they were excited about what they thought was going to be Morrowind 2. Same with Skyrim. People were just as excited at the thought of Bethesda finally learning from their mistakes (Oblivion) and finally making the Morrowind 2 they'd been waiting for. Skyrim did have some decent qualities of its own, but nothing has touched the world building and pure open endedness of Morrowind still.

You're really selling Skyrim short. It sold well because it had vikings screaming dragons to death, not because of a game that was 9 years old at the time and didn't have a huge console presence.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo


axolotl farmer posted:

Who in their right mind plays a TES game on a console?

A huge amount of people. If you told me more people play TES on console than PC, I would believe it. Even I played the majority of Oblivion on a 360.

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002



*shakes head and mutters something about being the PC gaming master race*

Lycus
Aug 5, 2008

Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.


ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Yeah that's exactly what my already hundred hour single player RPG needs, more MMO style time wasting. You could get the same effect by having an actual tutorial for the smaller game mechanics and keeping trainers actually useful like they are now.

Every time you pay a trainer, a montage plays that shows you doing the skill while "Eye of the Sabre Tiger" plays.

Head Hit Keyboard
Oct 9, 2012

It must be fate that has brought us together after all these years.

TEAYCHES posted:

*shakes head and mutters something about being the PC gaming master race*



That said, these games are the #1 in "I got my players to buy a Gaming PC."

Mormon Star Wars
Aug 13, 2005
It's a minotaur race...

I hope that the next TES ends with you utterly defeating the Thalmor because MK's version of TES where they win and the TES games are "a chronicle of the fall of man" is aggravatingly unsatisfying.

DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008

Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!



Mormon Star Wars posted:

I hope that the next TES ends with you utterly defeating the Thalmor because MK's version of TES where they win and the TES games are "a chronicle of the fall of man" is aggravatingly unsatisfying.

I'd be all for the TES games being about the fall of man if the Argonians were the ones who took over everything

axolotl farmer
May 17, 2007

I had me a vision
there wasn't any television



Nap Ghost

With TES games, modding is a big part of the game. The vanilla versions of Oblivion and Skyrim pretty much needs unofficial patches and UI fixes to be enjoyable.

Just can't think of having to stick with unmodded TES games forever on a console.

FutonForensic
Nov 11, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Mormon Star Wars posted:

I hope that the next TES ends with you utterly defeating the Thalmor because MK's version of TES where they win and the TES games are "a chronicle of the fall of man" is aggravatingly unsatisfying.

Yeah, MK's obsession with elves makes me think of him as a more interesting and competent version of R.A. Salvatore. Vivec is basically a crazy Drizzt.

Ms Adequate
Oct 29, 2011

Horned hellgod from another dimension and also trans


Cubey posted:

When Morrowind came out, my PC was an eMachines from 2000 running Windows ME. PC Morrowind was not an option.

I put in well over 700 hours on my Xbox save before I got a PC that could play Morrowind respectably.

Yeah but like 500 hours of that was loading, amirite? Been there too, I didn't have access to a PC that could have run DooM, nevermind Morrowind, so I played it on XBox for a long long time at first. Makes you appreciate modders all the more, but it also reminds me that despite the flaws in the game, it was brilliant in some fundamental ways. Also if Oblivion and Morrowind sales are roughly equal, and Skyrim's modest steps back towards being a bit less generic, hopefully it'll encourage more risks and wackiness with the next TES.

Speaking of mods, if any poor soul has yet to see it, I'd like to draw your attention to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4rXsrZRchQ (Might be a little loud so be forewarned).

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Cantorsdust
Aug 9, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Top Cop

I can only hope that TESO's failure will be blamed on its aggressive blandness, and thing will continue to swing back towards the novel for TES VI.

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