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Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010


The Great Twist
Skyrim was my first ES game and I'd say it's my favourite, but I had no trouble getting into and beating Morrowind last year. Oblivion has staved off multiple attempts to enjoy though.

I actually think it's about the dungeons. Skyrim is a combat heavy dungeon crawler, sure. I can pop into any random dungeon, and it'll probably have some storyline associated with it, either from material outside or stuff happening inside. They are generally well-crafted, with the occasional simple puzzle, some fairly nice set pieces, and the overall dungeon will probably look decent. On the reward front, I'm probably looking at a levelled magic item from the boss chest, and maybe a word wall. Occasionally there is a named unique item, but that's the exception. Not thrilling, but not bad.

In Morrowind, the dungeons are usually short affairs with a little bit of combat, but if you're crafty or have levitation, you can probably find a few secrets. Loot can be anything. A lot of times it's nothing, but it's common finding a smuggler's stash full of skooma and moon sugar which is a good payday if you can sell it. I've stumbled across the occasional piece of glass or ebony equipment, which is either incredibly valuable or equippable on the spot. These are small fries compared to other things I've seen people find online.

Oblivion, though, wow. Boring, samey dungeons. The loot involved is generally worth less than the lockpicks I use to open a box. The only time I've gotten a worthwhile item in a dungeon is my current game was where I killed a levelled bandit wearing Orcish armour, which was better than what I currently have. There are probably some good ones, but at this point I've stopped delving into places because I've been conditioned they're not worth my time or effort.

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Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth
One of the best things you can say about Skyrim is that it dumped many poorly implemented mechanics from the previous games (weird attribute multiplier, level scaling issues, major/minor skills interaction, many other things).

One of the worst things you can say about Skyrim is that it did not replace these mechanics with a better design, or often any design at all. It just got rid of them.


It is the penultimate "throw out the baby with the bathwater" design iteration and tbh I think it's the source of most arguments about how it ranks vs Morrowind/Oblivion. Many people rightly say it was good it got rid of badly implemented or designed features. Many people also rightly say it was bad they didn't replace those mechanics with anything, or replaced them with something extremely bland (but functional). Then these two groups talk past each other for eternity.

Meme Poker Party fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jul 1, 2020

Kamrat
Nov 27, 2012

Thanks for playing Alone in the dark 2.

Now please fuck off
I would've loved a jungle-setting for Oblivion, it would've been more visually interesting than what we got, boring medieval Europe.

If they didn't have the technology to do jungles just yet they should've picked another place instead of ruining Cyrodiil.

Randaconda
Jul 3, 2014

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

cargohills posted:

Surprisingly I think Morrowind only crashed once in my time playing it. So far Oblivion has only crashed on me once too - it's a miracle!


It doesn't add a mechanical benefit to non-combat skills anywhere but some quests where you need to get some guy to have a high disposition before he'll say the thing that gets you to progress, or merchant prices. Otherwise you're going into dungeons and exploring the world as usual and you've hosed yourself by picking a useless skill instead of something good.


I am also a big fan of the cities in Oblivion.Think that was one of the few areas (along with the quest writing) where Skyrim was a step back - although there were about as many major cities, almost half of them were just tiny villages (e.g. Morthal, Dawnstar, Winterhold) with the same architecture and not much going on. Different series but Fallout 4 was another major step back on that front seeing as there's basically only one real city in the game.

I didn't mind the small holds in Skyrim, really. It's tundra, having as many cities as it already has is stretching it.

Randaconda
Jul 3, 2014

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Kamrat posted:

I would've loved a jungle-setting for Oblivion, it would've been more visually interesting than what we got, boring medieval Europe.

If they didn't have the technology to do jungles just yet they should've picked another place instead of ruining Cyrodiil.

Nah, Oblivion was way better than some dumbass Romans in the jungle poo poo.

Simsmagic
Aug 3, 2011

im beautiful



Speechcraft is useless because once you get access to spellmaking it's extremely cheap and easy to just make Charm 100 for 3 seconds which completely bypasses any disposition bullshit

Jazerus
May 24, 2011


Randaconda posted:

Nah, Oblivion was way better than some dumbass Romans in the jungle poo poo.

imagine being this wrong

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth

Simsmagic posted:

Speechcraft is useless because once you get access to spellmaking it's extremely cheap and easy to just make Charm 100 for 3 seconds which completely bypasses any disposition bullshit

You could say this about most things. Alchemy/spells can do basically do anything the other skills can. Conversely, the other skills can in some way do everything alchemy/spells can!

Open locks: Lockpicking/Alteration
Sneak around: Stealth/Illusion/Alchemy
Hurt things: Weapons/Destruction
Protect yourself: Armor/Block/Alteration/Alchemy/Conjuration
Heals/buffs: Restoration/Alchemy/Mysticism
Influencing people: Speechcraft/Illusion/Restoration/Alchemy
Run and jump: Athletics/Acrobatics/Restoration/Alchemy


This is not a problem, it's let's people play how they want to play. That's good! You have multiple options on how to approach most of the basic goals in the game, from "kill things" to "sneak" to "talk". Only a few skills have no real alternative. Conjuration/Mercantile/Armorer are really the only ones that do a basic thing that no other skill can. And most of those still have alternatives through items/NPCs/whatever.

Lightningproof
Feb 23, 2011

Oblivion was the first big open world thing I played (or at the least the first I played while old enough to appreciate the freedom it offered) and have a huge amount of nostalgia for it, but I recognise that it's janky as hell and super derivative. Morrowind, which I played through properly 3 or 4 years ago, is definitely my favourite of the series.

The other two games that blew my mind in similar ways at that time were KOTOR 1 and Deus Ex: Invisible War, so I think I just had weird luck in coming into franchises at their lowest points as an 11 - 12 y/o (KOTOR 1 is great still ofc, but it's no KOTOR 2).

Guildenstern Mother
Mar 31, 2010

Why walk when you can ride?

Randaconda posted:

Nah, Oblivion was way better than some dumbass Romans in the jungle poo poo.

Blatant trolling going on in ES thread.

cargohills
Apr 18, 2014

Randaconda posted:

I didn't mind the small holds in Skyrim, really. It's tundra, having as many cities as it already has is stretching it.

It’s not just that they’re small, but they’re very samey too. The environments have variation but the buildings are mostly small wooden things that I’m pretty sure come from the exact same tilesets or whatever.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003

and god is on your side
dividing sparrows from the nightingales
Oblivion was also my first but that doesnt make the bad parts good, even at the time I was surprised by how completely terrible oblivion gates were

And combat in general since I ended up doing the thieves guild and dark brotherhood first, the two best parts of the game, and since neither requires heavy combat I leveled wrong and got to the 'everything takes 20 minutes to kill' part of the game even faster than usual

Cantorsdust posted:

Wow just a whole bunch of bad takes in this thread. Speech craft is great; I like how it helps to differentiate characters like the “native-ish Dunmer bard” from an Orc fighter with no charisma and adds a mechanical benefit to non-combat skills. And I may be the only one that liked the wheel mini game for speech craft in Oblivion.

Any excuse to repost this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAHBMj2N5Qs

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth

cargohills posted:

It’s not just that they’re small, but they’re very samey too. The environments have variation but the buildings are mostly small wooden things that I’m pretty sure come from the exact same tilesets or whatever.

I was about to chime in that I think the cities of Skyrim do a good job of having varied appearances and styles. Then I remembered that's my mods.

Kamrat
Nov 27, 2012

Thanks for playing Alone in the dark 2.

Now please fuck off

Wolfsheim posted:

And combat in general since I ended up doing the thieves guild and dark brotherhood first, the two best parts of the game, and since neither requires heavy combat I leveled wrong and got to the 'everything takes 20 minutes to kill' part of the game even faster than usual

Hey, that's exactly what happened to me the first time I played, left a very bad taste in my mouth.

Doc Hawkins
Jun 15, 2010

Dashing? But I'm not even moving!


quote:

Refayj's famous declaration, "There is but one city in the Imperial Province,--" may strike the citizens of the Colovian west as mildly insulting, until perhaps they hear the rest of the remark, which continues, "--but one city in Tamriel, but one city in the World; that, my brothers, is the city of the Cyrodiils." From the shore it is hard to tell what is city and what is Palace, for it all rises from the islands of the lake towards the sky in a stretch of gold. Whole neighborhoods rest on the jeweled bridges that connect the islands together. Gondolas and river-ships sail along the watery avenues of its flooded lower dwellings. Moth-priests walk by in a cloud of ancestors; House Guards hold exceptionally long daikatanas crossed at intersections, adorned with ribbons and dragon-flags; and the newly arrived Western legionnaires sweat in the humid air. The river mouth is tainted red from the tinmi soil of the shore, and river dragons rust their hides in its waters. Across the lake the Imperial City continues, merging into the villages of the southern red river and ruins left from the Interregnum.

The Emperor's Palace is a crown of sun rays, surrounded by his magical gardens. One garden path is known as Green Emperor Road-here, topiaries of the heads of past Emperors have been shaped by sorcery and can speak. When one must advise Tiber Septim, birds are drawn to the hedgery head, using their songs as its voice and moving its branches for the needed expressions.

"wow sounds much worse than what we got" - some people apparently

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Doc Hawkins posted:

"wow sounds much worse than what we got" - some people apparently

Yeah, it sounds like traversing Vivec but even more annoying

Should've kept the hedgeheads though

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

Doc Hawkins posted:

"wow sounds much worse than what we got" - some people apparently

Honestly, imagining the outcome of Bethesda attempting to implement all that in the Oblivion engine just makes me cringe. Once you account for technical limitations (you know, the whole "okay our capital city to the entire continent has like twelve houses in it and they're spread across five different worldspaces"), Bethesda's world-famous mastery of character animation...

Cantorsdust
Aug 10, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.
Bethesda the studio doesn’t deserve the setting they’ve written. It should be repossessed and given to a group with ambition and vision. Morrowind was a fluke and Oblivion and Skyrim, as “competently” executed Western fantasy as they are, are bland.

Kamrat
Nov 27, 2012

Thanks for playing Alone in the dark 2.

Now please fuck off

Cat Mattress posted:

Honestly, imagining the outcome of Bethesda attempting to implement all that in the Oblivion engine just makes me cringe. Once you account for technical limitations (you know, the whole "okay our capital city to the entire continent has like twelve houses in it and they're spread across five different worldspaces"), Bethesda's world-famous mastery of character animation...

Then they should've waited with Cyrodiil until they could do it properly.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003

and god is on your side
dividing sparrows from the nightingales
RE: jungles, one of the only interesting lore bits actually in Oblivion is the bit where the Mythic Dawn banned texts opaquely mention Tiber Septim using CHIM to retcon Cyrodil into being pleasant grasslands instead of dangerous jungles. Pretty sure that was Kirkbride too because of course.

The 'crazy' street preacher in Whiterun in Skyrim also references it which is a nice touch.

Simsmagic
Aug 3, 2011

im beautiful



yeah Kirkbride wrote the mysterium xarxes commentaries and all of the dialogue for Manker Cameron I believe

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

Wolfsheim posted:

Pretty sure that was Kirkbride too because of course.

That was todd using an out to justify laziness

John F Bennett
Jan 30, 2013

I always wear my wedding ring. It's my trademark.

Wow this thread sure picked up after its name change!

re Oblivion forests; I didn't mind it, it was just the fact that it was the only biome. The only difference was the color of the trees.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003

and god is on your side
dividing sparrows from the nightingales

Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:

That was todd using an out to justify laziness

I think it was less Todd giving a poo poo outside of "make it look like LOTR that was a good movie" and Kirkbride caring so much he tried to salvage what he could to have it actually follow from Morrowind in some coherent way

Doc Hawkins
Jun 15, 2010

Dashing? But I'm not even moving!


Cat Mattress posted:

Honestly, imagining the outcome of Bethesda attempting to implement all that in the Oblivion engine just makes me cringe. Once you account for technical limitations (you know, the whole "okay our capital city to the entire continent has like twelve houses in it and they're spread across five different worldspaces"), Bethesda's world-famous mastery of character animation...

the worlds were getting geographically smaller with each game already (to their benefit), just have the whole game take place in the imperial city, bingo bongo

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth

Doc Hawkins posted:

the worlds were getting geographically smaller with each game already (to their benefit), just have the whole game take place in the imperial city, bingo bongo

They could it call it Elder Scrolls: Arena!

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)
I mean Blades takes place in a single town and the dungeons in its immediate environs already.

cargohills
Apr 18, 2014

Chomp8645 posted:

I was about to chime in that I think the cities of Skyrim do a good job of having varied appearances and styles. Then I remembered that's my mods.

The 5 main ones are good, it's just that the small ones are rubbish.

Doc Hawkins posted:

"wow sounds much worse than what we got" - some people apparently

You wouldn't worry about this as much if you did what I did: pick up all the books with the intention of reading them eventually, never get round to it, and if you do read them instantly forget what was in it.

Seriously though it's not a big deal. Jungles are still difficult as hell graphically, and they wanted to do a traditional fantasy story set in the center of the Empire, so the one or two books that mentioned the place being a jungle were retconned. Oh no. How tragic.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011


"jungle" is a shorthand for the cultural flavor that had been established for cyrodiil. i don't think people care very much about the literal jungle part, whatever, make it a temperate rain forest instead of a tropical one if that's more technically feasible. but imperials are supposed to be decidedly not-generic-fantasy-humans with a lot of akaviri influence from the reman and post-reman periods. high rock is the generic fantasy province, everywhere else is distinctly not.

before the thread name change i was probably the biggest oblivion apologist in this thread so trust me when i say this isn't out of a dislike for the game that we actually got. i just think that the setting is deeply unambitious. skyrim's is equally "safe" and uninteresting.

Yaoi Gagarin
Feb 20, 2014

Todd should stop being a coward and do a game about the guerilla war that I'm positive the wood elves are waging against the thalmor.

funmanguy
Apr 20, 2006

What time is it?
Glad we can come together as friends and recognize oblivion as the best elder scroll

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth

funmanguy posted:

Glad we can come together as friends and recognize oblivion as the best elder scroll


Pictured: me and funmanguy thinking about Oblivion together.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
Stealing an elder scroll was real real fun. In skyrim they just throw elder scrolls at you. I'm practically drowning in elder scrolls.

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

i think its about time the write some new scrolls

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth

Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:

i think its about time the write some new scrolls

Young Scrolls

John F Bennett
Jan 30, 2013

I always wear my wedding ring. It's my trademark.

One huge city with seamless insides and outsides would be pretty cool though. Would be fun for a thief roleplay (which is the best roleplay).

Speaking of, I like how in Skyrim a thief play is always valid since there's valuable stuff in every home when you break in at night. Compared to Oblivion where you could maybe steal a spoon or 2 because of level scaling.

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Someone needed 12 minutes in order to list all the ways in which just one of Skyrim's animations is lovely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqQ5V8JeCjM

For the whole game he'd probably need like five hours.

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

by Azathoth

John F Bennett posted:

One huge city with seamless insides and outsides would be pretty cool though. Would be fun for a thief roleplay (which is the best roleplay).

Speaking of, I like how in Skyrim a thief play is always valid since there's valuable stuff in every home when you break in at night. Compared to Oblivion where you could maybe steal a spoon or 2 because of level scaling.

If you think about it, if every single house has "valuable" stuff, then really none of it is valuable!

FutonForensic
Nov 11, 2012

when ES6 comes out and more people buy it than every previous game combined, we'll all be lumped into the "old people who played skyrim" club, and probably hunted down and killed for sport

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Randaconda
Jul 3, 2014

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I wander what they'll keep as canon from Skyrim.

I assume the Stormcloaks winning and the Emperor getting killed, just for maximum chaos, but I dunno what else.

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