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Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Before anybody asks no, this is not a news thread and yes, it's sanctioned by LW within some very narrow guidelines. It seems like once or twice a week I'd read some interesting current event or article on another website that involved firearms - usually some aspect of the firearms industry or design - and want to share them. Sometimes I could shoe-horn them into one of the other threads, but they frequently were kinda-half derails and usually were (I would hope at least) of broader interest than just the subset of the forum population that reads those threads.

Hence, this thread.

What this thread is:

This thread is a place to discuss interesting things that are going on in the firearms industry. Has a new product come out? Is there an interesting article about ammo prices? Is there something going on in the world of firearms training that is really cool and you want to share? This would be a pretty neat place to talk about these things. Think of it kind of like a SHOT show thread, but year-long.

What this thread is NOT:

This thread IS NOT A PLACE TO DISCUSS POLITICS OR LAWS .Does the thing you want to discuss involve a politician, legislation, or the legal system in any way shape or form? This is not the place for it. Long story short, we can't have nice things because some people can't play well with others. Was the 2nd Amendment just repealed? Don't care, talk about it in D&D. Did some state just legalize SBRs or un-gently caress their carry laws? Don't care, take it to D&D. Is the next election super important for gun owners everywhere? Couldn't care less, take it to D&D.

This thread IS NOT A PLACE TO DISCUSS RANDOM EVENTS TANGENTIALLY INVOLVING A GUN . Shitheads doing horrible things with guns? Mental health in America sucks? The nuances of policing in America and the troubled relationship between minority communities and state authority? These are all things you should talk about anywhere else. Have a horrible car analogy: Just because a suicide bomber in Tel Aviv blows up a bus doesn't mean AI needs to spend the next month discussing the historical and political nuances of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Please, let's not gently caress this up. I really just want a place to talk about neat developments in a hobby that I enjoy.

Here, let's talk about commodities prices to get us started:

One of the things I've been hearing a lot about recently is how commodities prices have been bottoming the gently caress out due to China having a bit of economy-related heartburn. One of the reasons for the up-swing in ammo prices that began in '07-early 08 was the way that transportation costs and the price of copper/lead/steel/etc. made production and transportation that much more expensive for everyone. Let's take a look at a few graphs:

Here is the 1 year average, courtesy of google and nasdaq:



As you can see, copper has been driving downhill pretty well for the last few months. Not to shabby, huh?

A glance at 5 year prices shows that this seems to be part of a somewhat longer-term slowdown in copper demand:



Now a look at the bigger picture shows that it certainly hasn't hit the lows that it got to at the worst of the '08 crash, but that was a momentary fall back to the levels it was at in '06. Once everyone figured out that China was going to keep growing whatever happened to our economy copper rebounded on the double.



Does this signify a return to pre-'06 prices for copper? Probably not. But cheap copper, cheaper production costs (due partially to cheap oil/gas and cheaper electricity) and cheaper transportation costs (oil) could - if prices stay lower and don't just bounce right back up in the summer - lead to cheaper ammo. I think it's interesting to ponder, at least.



One of the things we've been half-discussing over in the milsurp thread has been that someone is taking another swing at releasing a repro StG44 semi-only clone and a MP-38 semi-only clone. Another company tried this a few years back and it was a clusterfuck of expensive, broken guns. Me, I'm cautiously optimistic that the new guys will have learned some lessons from the old importers, but I'm not going to crack my wallet unless they can bring the price down significantly.

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Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED




So apparently Colt is doing a limited run of the 1903 Pocket Hammerless.

I know it's a total pipe dream for reasons of simple economics, but I kind of wish things like this could be common enough and affordable enough that I could get one for shooting the gently caress out of instead of wearing out a 90+ year old original.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Sperglord Actual posted:

So apparently Colt is doing a limited run of the 1903 Pocket Hammerless.

I know it's a total pipe dream for reasons of simple economics, but I kind of wish things like this could be common enough and affordable enough that I could get one for shooting the gently caress out of instead of wearing out a 90+ year old original.

I was having a similar conversation about repro firearms in general with someone the other day. On the one hand, if you're going to tool up to make them you could drop the price per unit pretty significantly by making more of them.

The "problem" is that if you make enough to really catch the eye of shooters than you need to make them reliable as well. The people who are buying the commemorative line and the colt collectors etc are never going to shoot them in large enough numbers for defective craftsmanship to really stand out. You could probably get away with some shockingly barely functional guns. One you make them something that might get use beyond a box every couple of years you open yourself up to people who are going to be a lot more demanding of the gun as a gun.

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED




True, but if you're talking about a simple design in a class and caliber that was immensely popular for decades, then making it reliable shouldn't be that hard. As long as you don't go full Remington, anyway.

I still really wish Ruger would do a Mini-Garand, too.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Sperglord Actual posted:

True, but if you're talking about a simple design in a class and caliber that was immensely popular for decades, then making it reliable shouldn't be that hard.

You would say that, but just look at all the Luger clones which have cropped up in small batches since WW2. gently caress, just look at 1911s. I mean, the 1911 is clearly an example that it can certainly be done, but it's also a giant case study in all the ways things can go wrong when you transition to turn of the last century hand fitting and work-hour-intensive production techniques to more modern methods less dependent on cheap, skilled machinist labor.

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED




A straight blowback pocket pistol has a lot less to gently caress up than either a Luger or a 1911, though.

Or how about some classic bolt action military and/or sporting rifles?

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



People bitch about a featherweight Glock 42 being a too big/heavy/low-capacity/under-powered turd in a crowded pocket gun market.

A steel blowback 32 ACP with SAO trigger and a safety that is even closer to the size and weight of a micro 9mm at an undoubtedly higher cost is not going to sell.

Compete with everything (Sig P238 has SAO pocket rocket market locked, nevermind Colt's own Mustang and Brownijg is bringing out a lighter gun in the same-ish size with the 1911-380 while original 1903s compete for collector and crotchety old fart attention) just to bring back an old pistol that was discontinued for lagging income potential in the first place decades ago. Nevermind that no one sees eniugh profit potential to even make a modern quality magazine on even the most limited of runs for existing units.

Do I want a modern pocket hammerless with dovetailed sights ans extendex safety in 32 NAA? You bet your rear end. But I would rather have a 1910 so set up. And that brings up the point that the modern old gun market is also split up along model and caliber lines.

Scaling production to reduce cost is not how manufactring works. Production only goes up when demand does. Price only goes down when demand finally drops* and you need to keep producing**.

* Nevermind that guns already sell sluggishly on the civilian market as they are lifetime investments to the buyer and an heir. A market of classics and used moderns would swamp new production quickly.

** They won't. The machines tied up with the run will be shut down and set back up to run other products.

small hendren
Jan 27, 2011


I can't believe this thread is about interesting new developments in the firearms industry.

Oscar Wilde Bunch
Jun 12, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Cyrano4747 posted:

You would say that, but just look at all the Luger clones which have cropped up in small batches since WW2. gently caress, just look at 1911s. I mean, the 1911 is clearly an example that it can certainly be done, but it's also a giant case study in all the ways things can go wrong when you transition to turn of the last century hand fitting and work-hour-intensive production techniques to more modern methods less dependent on cheap, skilled machinist labor.

And yet, Colt being Colt, will probably still charge way too much money for it.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



I remember reading somewhere (I think it was TFB a few weeks ago not sure) about Colt slapping their name on a repro BAR as well, but one done by another company. Ohio Ordinance I think? This just seems to be part of a broader trend with them trying to get their name on repro guns of all kinds.

DeusExMachinima
Sep 2, 2012

This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!

Put this loser on ignore immediately!


The HCAR?

Also I was expecting a blank OP.

Nashvillain
Jan 29, 2009

B.F. SKINNER GIVE ME STRENGTH

Cyrano4747 posted:



Does this signify a return to pre-'06 prices for copper? Probably not. But cheap copper, cheaper production costs (due partially to cheap oil/gas and cheaper electricity) and cheaper transportation costs (oil) could - if prices stay lower and don't just bounce right back up in the summer - lead to cheaper ammo. I think it's interesting to ponder, at least.



One of the things we've been half-discussing over in the milsurp thread has been that someone is taking another swing at releasing a repro StG44 semi-only clone and a MP-38 semi-only clone. Another company tried this a few years back and it was a clusterfuck of expensive, broken guns. Me, I'm cautiously optimistic that the new guys will have learned some lessons from the old importers, but I'm not going to crack my wallet unless they can bring the price down significantly.

Lead has also ticked down slightly over the past year, but it's been depressingly stagnant over the past 5 so I'm not getting optimistic. I wonder as well how long it takes for a price drop in raw materials to be potentially reflected in the cost of bullets; I imagine the manufacturers have substantial stockpiles of raw materials they'd have to chew through first to reap the benefits of cheaper copper/lead?

On the topic of fantasy guns that will never exist, a proportionally scaled down .223 Garand would be the perfect complement to one of those miniaturized 1911s in .22 that Browning's been selling these past few years.

Micromancer
Apr 17, 2002

He went out to the store
and when he got back
Roll-marks said .22 Short, jack.
If anything I could say that
this gun was rare
Its covered it sweat,
toilet water, and hair


It's a Cyrano thread. Minus graphics, there is barely a page of text here. How blank does it need to be to qualify? I mean, if we are already missing three pages of text, does the last one really count?

Servicio en Espanol
Feb 5, 2009


small hendren posted:

I can't believe this thread is about interesting new developments in the firearms industry.

"Interesting new developments in the firearms industry: producing a 112 year old design."



What I'm personally interested in is the news that Fabryka Broni intends on not just making* Beryls at their new US factory, but also their new MSBS rifle. Even the bullpup configuration wasn't as abominable as I would have expected, which is pretty high praise. Granted, it sounds like it'll be some time before it happens (after Polish Army adoption for one) but it is one of the few modern rifles I'm interested in. I'm curious about how it will shake out commercially, since seems to be described as a "better" ACR an awful lot and will be competing with AR15s in the AR15's stomping grounds, but being Polish it lacks the of domestic ARs or the Israeli mystique the Tavor and Galil benefit from. (How do we not have an :israel: emoticon? Vestigial shreds of human decency I presume.) Still, having a US factory beachhead for an Eastern European manufacturer strikes me as potentially fantastic for consumers.

Palmetto State Armory actually manufacturing AKs and not just rebranding IO Inc. shitpiles was surprising news. Gun Forum Scuttlebutt says that they'll be partnering with a manufacturer with "belt-fed machine gun" experience for some of the parts (barrels?,) which sounds like their old pal FN again. Whether we see this stuff at all is a very real and legitimate question, based on PSA being PSA, but I'm optimistic about the quality from my experiences with them.


*making, 922ring, whatever it turns out to be.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I mailed Ruger to request a Mini-Garand in 7.62x39mm with firing pin to handle Tula/Wolf/Bear and 8-round clips. They said they would pass it up the ladder to consider. It was a very polite no.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



DeusExMachinima posted:

Also I was expecting a blank OP.

haha I kinda was too.


The copper price being down seems to be reflective of the commodities market as a whole. A lot of metals and agricultural commodities were down in 2014 and for the most part 2015 is projected flat for them.

MazelTovCocktail
Jun 23, 2012

Gritty's gonna cut you.


The 1903 repro made actually sorts of stupid thinking about wanting one...but you can most likely get a shooter for far cheaper...also those and the 1908s not made in Spain are really really good guns. They were made by craftsmen and they stand the test of time.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006


Butch Cassidy posted:

I mailed Ruger to request a Mini-Garand in 7.62x39mm with firing pin to handle Tula/Wolf/Bear and 8-round clips. They said they would pass it up the ladder to consider. It was a very polite no.

I would buy the gently caress out of this.

Servicio en Espanol
Feb 5, 2009


Rontalvos posted:

I would buy the gently caress out of this.


.276 Pedersen yo

DeusExMachinima
Sep 2, 2012

This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!

Put this loser on ignore immediately!


Servicio en Espanol posted:

.276 Pedersen yo

new!

Have they gotten caseless ammo done for the LSAT yet?

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you


Why are finicky guns like Lugers so hard to make good repros of?
The old ones were all hand-fit and done by hand by craftsmen, but I would expect modern metal manufacturing to be good enough to not require it?

Pitch
Jun 16, 2005

しらんけど


canyoneer posted:

Why are finicky guns like Lugers so hard to make good repros of?
The old ones were all hand-fit and done by hand by craftsmen, but I would expect modern metal manufacturing to be good enough to not require it?
You'd still have to machine all those clockwork parts with fairly close tolerances, which is slow and expensive. Modern designs do it cheaper by requiring only a few really critical dimensions, and only having cosmetic finishing for the rest of the gun. Think of what a pretty decent aftermarket trigger costs, even without being hand-fit, and then scale it up to be an entire gun. Or compare a modern rube goldberg gimmick like the Boberg, which is like $1,200 worth of custom machined parts, and imagine trying to sell a whole lot of new-production Lugers at that price.

my turn in the barrel
Dec 31, 2007



Butch Cassidy posted:

I mailed Ruger to request a Mini-Garand in 7.62x39mm with firing pin to handle Tula/Wolf/Bear and 8-round clips. They said they would pass it up the ladder to consider. It was a very polite no.

It's so specific of a product that the only way to get it made would be mock up a photoshop and post it to their facebook and try to get enough people to ask for it specifically. They do send out online surveys with guns they've been toying with to get a better idea of demand. Especially with cmp possibly drying up a commercial SRM1 would probably do well in 223 and 762×39 or even a full sized repop in 308 like their xgi mini 14 design that almost got made in the 80s. The problem is they have a vested interest in the mini 14 so they may be afraid of investing in a product that would effect demand for one they already paid the tooling off of.

Especially with safe act laws possibly popping up it may have a vast market that that doesn't want a mini 14 so it's worth rattling rugers cage.

Sixgun Strumpet
Feb 16, 2009

Heh, yeah, 'round here I call myself The Enabler. I suspect pretty much everyone wishes they could be me -- I'm kind of a big deal, you see.


canyoneer posted:

Why are finicky guns like Lugers so hard to make good repros of?
The old ones were all hand-fit and done by hand by craftsmen, but I would expect modern metal manufacturing to be good enough to not require it?

They were hard guns to make in the first place, and today there are very few people capable of doing the hand fitting required to make them work right. The cost of a high quality new Luger is high enough that it's not economically viable to make them. Even if you could find enough guys who could to the work you would still have to sell them for more then a high grade old one would cost.

As expensive as they are old Lugers are still a deal if you consider the cost of reproducing them today.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I think I sent it a year ago? Whenever Sperglord Actual came up with the base idea.

TopherCStone
Feb 27, 2013

I am very important and deserve your attention


SnarkyProfessor posted:

I imagine the manufacturers have substantial stockpiles of raw materials they'd have to chew through first to reap the benefits of cheaper copper/lead?

A lot of times even if they don't have the material on hand they may have a contract to buy a fixed amount over time at a fixed price, so even if lead is cheap they might still be paying the higher price from when they made the deal. It works the other way too, though; if lead prices were to spike they would have a supply of lead at a palatable price (until the contract expires, at least).

Steeltalon
Feb 14, 2012

Perps were uncooperative.




PSA has an AK, and it looks really good.

http://youtu.be/HS3SuJQR0fg

RavenKrows
May 29, 2008


Steeltalon posted:

PSA has an AK, and it looks really good.

http://youtu.be/HS3SuJQR0fg

Hopefully it won't be complete trash like Century's homegrown models. I'd love to have a reliable American made AK. Which I probably won't buy because it will end up being too expensive.

Parts Kit
Jun 9, 2006

durr
i have a hole in my head
durr


Steeltalon posted:

PSA has an AK, and it looks really good.

http://youtu.be/HS3SuJQR0fg
Oh cool, I might have to pick one up.

Smokewagon
Jul 3, 2012


Steeltalon posted:

PSA has an AK, and it looks really good.

http://youtu.be/HS3SuJQR0fg

Hopefully they will be for sale at a quicker pace than the PSA 1911's they announced last year at SHOT,.

Daikon
Apr 22, 2009


1 IWB Holster to rule them all?

http://www.recoilweb.com/fobus-holsters-releases-iwb-line-54759.html

I wonder if this thing will really be as good, or close to a comptac minotaur, and work with multiple guns, AND only cost 35 bucks?

Drav
Jul 23, 2002

We've come a long way since that day, and we will never look back at the faded silhouette.

RavenKrows posted:

Hopefully it won't be complete trash like Century's homegrown models. I'd love to have a reliable American made AK. Which I probably won't buy because it will end up being too expensive.

1 moa?

BadgerMan45
Dec 30, 2009


Daikon posted:

1 IWB Holster to rule them all?

http://www.recoilweb.com/fobus-holsters-releases-iwb-line-54759.html

I wonder if this thing will really be as good, or close to a comptac minotaur, and work with multiple guns, AND only cost 35 bucks?

It's Fobus, so it probably won't even be close.

Parts Kit
Jun 9, 2006

durr
i have a hole in my head
durr


RavenKrows posted:

I'd love to have a reliable American made AK. Which I probably won't buy because it will end up being too expensive.
Vid put the price around $600, possibly lower. Depending on what all is US made that's not bad.

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED




Butch Cassidy posted:

I think I sent it a year ago? Whenever Sperglord Actual came up with the base idea.

Wasn't my idea, I just agreed with it.

I like what I hear about the PSA AKM so far, but that blank space on the trunnion looks so wrong after years of staring at originals.

z06ck
Dec 22, 2010



RavenKrows posted:

Hopefully it won't be complete trash like Century's homegrown models. I'd love to have a reliable American made AK. Which I probably won't buy because it will end up being too expensive.

It's supposed to be ~$600

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



hah, they thought I was crazy to post a thread about actual developments and new poo poo about guns but:

DARPA test fired a guided .50 cal last year. The project name via one of those awful overwrought acronyms is EXACTO and it's basically a .50 cal that can do slight path corrections mid-flight to hit a designated target. There's a short video of a test on that page.

Yes, that page is from last year. I only became aware of this because CNN, probably out of a lack of anything interesting to report on today, had it slathered all over their front page like it was breaking news. I thought it was better to do a quick google and link straight to the DARPA info rather than the CNN garbage, though.

Here's the DARPA project description although it doesn't look like they've updated it since they started doing live fire testing.

This is the first I've heard of it and pretty neat. If they can get it down to .50 cal then there's no real reason they shouldn't eventually be able to get it down further. These things have to be obscenely expensive so I doubt you'll be seeing self-guiding anti-deer munitions any time soon, but it's still a neat development in a technology that people just LOVE to stamp their feet and declare mature and impossible to improve.

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


I fully expect guided deer rounds to be banned in most states like baiting because it's unsporting.

Drav
Jul 23, 2002

We've come a long way since that day, and we will never look back at the faded silhouette.

z06ck posted:

It's supposed to be ~$600

I'll buy one

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Creamed Cormp
Jan 8, 2011

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


Cyrano4747 posted:

hah, they thought I was crazy to post a thread about actual developments and new poo poo about guns but:

DARPA test fired a guided .50 cal last year. The project name via one of those awful overwrought acronyms is EXACTO and it's basically a .50 cal that can do slight path corrections mid-flight to hit a designated target. There's a short video of a test on that page.

Yes, that page is from last year. I only became aware of this because CNN, probably out of a lack of anything interesting to report on today, had it slathered all over their front page like it was breaking news. I thought it was better to do a quick google and link straight to the DARPA info rather than the CNN garbage, though.

Here's the DARPA project description although it doesn't look like they've updated it since they started doing live fire testing.

This is the first I've heard of it and pretty neat. If they can get it down to .50 cal then there's no real reason they shouldn't eventually be able to get it down further. These things have to be obscenely expensive so I doubt you'll be seeing self-guiding anti-deer munitions any time soon, but it's still a neat development in a technology that people just LOVE to stamp their feet and declare mature and impossible to improve.

I wouldn't exactly be surprised to see that kind of technology being used in drones to eliminate high value targets without levelling the neighborhood with a Hellfire.

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