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Cardboard Box posted:and things would probably be different if bryan was a business-changer like austin There's no such thing as a business changer anymore because WWE doesn't want one. Do you think Austin would have been a business changer if the merch stand at every show after KOTR 96 had nothing but Hitman shirts and Hitman goggles and Hitman shoulder tassels and Hitman BEST THEIR WAS hand towels and there wasn't a single 3:16 product ANYWHERE? Or for that matter if the 3:16 promo had been discussing the tale of Rip Van Winkle and it's relative metaphorical significance to Jake the Snake while people in charge backstage were giggling about how Austin was only catchphrase over because people just love echoing AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE back to him? But lets leave all that aside. I'm not saying Bryan is Austin, that's stupid. But completely ignoring Bryan is dumb. People say that comparing Bryan to HBK or Bret isn't flattering or helpful in making a case for him because those guys were poor draws and presided over downturns in the company, but when you don't have a Hogan around sometimes you need Bret to step up. If they made Bryan "THE GUY," maybe it would in fact be a downturn in business. There's no guarantee he'd take off to that level even if they got fully behind him and gave him all the spotlight Cena gets and let his merch flow like wine and did all those other intangible things that smarks claim are the REAL reason why Cena draws and sells so well. But doesn't having a happy, invested, cheering audience count for ANYTHING? Doesn't Bryan's skill at popping crowds and manipulating their reactions and putting on great matches, which were all among Austin's most important attributes, mean anything even in the face of a loss of sales? Especially if it's only a temporary measure until someone like Reigns or Rollins can start the next era properly and organically? Lest we all forget: Austin's star didn't hit it's peak until after he'd beaten BOTH Bret and Shawn.
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Feb 3, 2015 10:53
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he never beat bret
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Feb 3, 2015 10:56
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minoru suzuki posted:he never beat bret Moral victories count
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Feb 3, 2015 10:57
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Sanguinia posted:There's no such thing as a business changer anymore because WWE doesn't want one. Do you think Austin would have been a business changer if the merch stand at every show after KOTR 96 had nothing but Hitman shirts and Hitman goggles and Hitman shoulder tassels and Hitman BEST THEIR WAS hand towels and there wasn't a single 3:16 product ANYWHERE? Or for that matter if the 3:16 promo had been discussing the tale of Rip Van Winkle and it's relative metaphorical significance to Jake the Snake while people in charge backstage were giggling about how Austin was only catchphrase over because people just love echoing AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE back to him? Austin never got his big win over Bret and played second fiddle a bunch in the first half of 1997 because they weren't ready to make him the guy yet but still wanted him in main events. I don't even know what the hell you are writing when you write nonsense about what if there was no Austin gear after KOTR 96. There has been TONS of Bryan poo poo sold and Austin didn't start to become a force until months later. The Austin 3:16 line has taken on a life of its own because the shirts became so popular later but it wasn't until the fall when you started seeing the crowds were really taking to Austin and he didn't become a merchandising machine until later on. Bryan on the other hand gets tons of merchandise made for him even though it wasn't selling particularly well when his main event run began. People who use words like "proper and organic" don't understand wrestling. Wrestling has rarely been about "organic." Wrestling is about pushing people hard and treating them like stars, not doing things "organically." Yes you want to go with the people who the crowds react to, but guess what the crowds reacted to Reigns huge for a good year until his injury. Wrestling is about guiding people and getting them to react a certain way. It's about getting them interested in something that isn't real. It's about creating hype and things that are inorganic because that's what wrestling is. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 10:59
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Like Triple H said, he wasn't ready in '96 and it ended up being a good thing that his chance came later. Reigns is pretty green and doesn't have the experience at the moment to be a Cena style main event guy carrying pay-per-views every month, like Austin has pointed out. Maybe a year from now, maybe two, he has plenty of time. There is something to letting him get there a bit more organically and getting that respect from the crowd, and just becoming a better performer to be better able to serve that top spot. None the less, I think they're doing a pretty good job keeping things interesting after such a fumbled Rumble. I dig this Bryan vs Reigns story, it's a lot more exciting than a lot of other ways they could've gone. Either way, even if Bryan loses here, we have Rollins to bail us all out at WrestleMania with the cash in. Picking which babyface to go with is one thing, it's pretty obvious that Rollins is the top heel and he's very ready for that first title reign.
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Feb 3, 2015 11:13
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MassRafTer posted:People who use words like "proper and organic" don't understand wrestling. Wrestling has rarely been about "organic." Wrestling is about pushing people hard and treating them like stars, not doing things "organically." Yes you want to go with the people who the crowds react to, but guess what the crowds reacted to Reigns huge for a good year until his injury. Wrestling is about guiding people and getting them to react a certain way. It's about getting them interested in something that isn't real. It's about creating hype and things that are inorganic because that's what wrestling is. fuckin thank you. every time i see people refer to something in wrestling being "forced" I'm just left there thinking "motherfucker do you know how wrestling works"
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Feb 3, 2015 11:14
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It will be interesting to see how Reigns vs. Bryan is laid out. Reigns doesn't have the offensive range to control the match for long periods, but spending much of the match selling for a guy half his size would make him look awful. I would have said the match would likely benefit from being agented to hell but we all saw how that worked out for the Rumble...
Spermgod fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 11:28
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Spermgod posted:It will be interesting to see how Reigns vs. Bryan is laid out. Reigns doesn't have the offensive range to control the match for long periods, but spending much of the match selling to a guy half his size would make him look awful. I would have said the match would likely benefit from being agented to hell but we all saw how that worked out for the Rumble... And on the size thing, Daniel Bryan isn't too much smaller than HBK. And HBK was in believable matches with The Undertaker. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 11:32
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You don't want it to feel forced, though. Breaks the suspension of disbelief, innit? Doesn't help that the majority of the fans have clearly chosen Daniel Bryan as the next guy and the WWE are going "You don't want Daniel Bryan, you want New Sheamus!"
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Feb 3, 2015 11:33
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Heavy Metal posted:Bryan is considered one of the top asskickers in the company, he defeated Triple H, then destroyed Batista and Orton at the same time. The crowd buys Bryan, if anything hanging in a competitive match with Bryan would increase Roman's clout with the crowd I'd wager. But I think this size thing is a very subjective personal thing that people bring to it, I don't think most of the audience has that concern. At least that's the impression I get. It's not about who beat who, it's about who controlled the match. Bryan worked underdog babyface in all those matches so it was fine for him to spend most of the time selling. Babyface vs. Babyface changes the dynamic. I never saw the more recent Michaels/Undertaker matches since I was tuned out from the product at that time but I doubt HBK spent a whole ton of time on offense in those either?
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Feb 3, 2015 11:39
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Spermgod posted:It's not about who beat who, it's about who controlled the match. Bryan worked underdog babyface in all those matches so it was fine for him to spend most of the time selling. Babyface vs. Babyface changes the dynamic. I never saw the more recent Michaels/Undertaker matches since I was tuned out from the product at that time but I doubt HBK spent a whole ton of time on offense in those either? The HBK vs Undertaker WrestleMania matches were very competitive as I recall.
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Feb 3, 2015 11:41
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I hope reigns busts out his huricarana on Bryan
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Feb 3, 2015 12:20
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Cardboard Box posted:and things would probably be different if bryan was a business-changer like austin Austin would not have a chance to be a gamechanger in the current WWE. He'd have been cut off at the knees in 96/97.
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Feb 3, 2015 12:22
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Bryan vs Morishima is a great series of matches. Watch these especially if you don't think Bryan can match up to Reigns and/or Lesnar. Because he can. And win. Those matches are brutal as gently caress.
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Feb 3, 2015 12:33
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Korelle posted:Austin would not have a chance to be a gamechanger in the current WWE. He'd have been cut off at the knees in 96/97. i want to see the alternate reality where austin was stuck as a midcarder
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Feb 3, 2015 12:57
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Cardboard Box posted:i want to see the alternate reality where austin was stuck as a midcarder Wasn't that the whole bit behind Stunnin Steve Austin and the WCW?
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Feb 3, 2015 13:16
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Taste the Rainbugh posted:I hope reigns busts out his huricarana on Bryan Why would you want them both to get injured like that? 
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Feb 3, 2015 13:26
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Korelle posted:Austin would not have a chance to be a gamechanger in the current WWE. He'd have been cut off at the knees in 96/97. That's a dumb comparison. There is no 96/97 equivalent of John Cena.
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Feb 3, 2015 13:35
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Fluffdaddy posted:There is no 96/97 equivalent of John Cena. Rocky Maivia
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Feb 3, 2015 13:44
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Tezzeract posted:Wasn't that the whole bit behind Stunnin Steve Austin and the WCW? the steve austin that mattered
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Feb 3, 2015 13:45
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Discount Trombones posted:Rocky Maivia No. If Hulk Hogan was still in WWE and was still super over the comparison would be apt but there was literally no one putting butts in seats when Stone Cold started becoming big.
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Feb 3, 2015 13:51
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The best part of the interview last night was when Austin asked Triple H which was more important, the nwo or dx, and Triple H had to work out in his head a way to say that DX was
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Feb 3, 2015 14:03
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Spermgod posted:It will be interesting to see how Reigns vs. Bryan is laid out. Reigns doesn't have the offensive range to control the match for long periods, but spending much of the match selling for a guy half his size would make him look awful. I would have said the match would likely benefit from being agented to hell but we all saw how that worked out for the Rumble... I'm inclined to say that they should build a match like the SD! Kane/Bryan casket match, where Kane controls, but Bryan makes little comebacks to build hope - which Kane shuts down, eventually building towards the huge comeback at the end. Kane didn't have to do a whole lot except stomp and punch. But that paints Reigns as a heel, and I don't think Bryan's winning that match, either.
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Feb 3, 2015 14:07
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Is WWE really drawing that much more on house shows than they were in 96/97? Obviously they're making exponentially more money now (ignoring the past year) by virtue of having so many more non-traditional revenue streams, and their TV and PPVs do much better attendance, but from a cursory look house show numbers seem to be only mildly better than back then. From what I've seen in old Observers the talking point was always that even when WCW was killing them in the ratings, the WWF always did much better on the road. I guess they run far more shows now though, and ticket prices are probably higher even if you adjust for inflation?
Spermgod fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 14:09
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Cardboard Box posted:i want to see the alternate reality where austin was stuck as a midcarder 1. Go to http://video.google.com 2. Search "WWF Ringmaster" 3. There you go
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Feb 3, 2015 14:09
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Red posted:1. Go to http://video.google.com i said stuck. i want to see him in the kofi kingston position of being around for like 8 years and never going anywhere.
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Feb 3, 2015 14:12
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Cardboard Box posted:i said stuck. i want to see him in the kofi kingston position of being around for 6 years and never going anywhere. Austin's matches as The Ringmaster in early 1996 are the same as they'd have been in 1999. Kofi's matches as a curtain jerker years ago are the same as he's wrestling now, he just happens to wear blue pants and have a gospel theme song.
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Feb 3, 2015 14:16
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All I want going into mania is a segment where Goldust takes a towel to Stardust to remove the paint and get his head in the game and Cody just snaps and beats him to a pulp. I want a Rhodes blood feud dammit. Bring out Dusty to cry over a bloodied up Goldust and I will subscribe twice.
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Feb 3, 2015 14:19
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Charles Gnarwin posted:All I want going into mania is a segment where Goldust takes a towel to Stardust to remove the paint and get his head in the game and Cody just snaps and beats him to a pulp. I want a Rhodes blood feud dammit. Bring out Dusty to cry over a bloodied up Goldust and I will subscribe twice. I want Two-Face Cody, with the reveal being a side shot of him looking normal where he slowly turns to reveal the other half of his face is Stardust paint
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Feb 3, 2015 14:47
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This Reigns/Bryan angle seems like a test for crowd reactions. I wouldn't be surprised if Vince waits until the match so he can get in the ref's ear and tell him who needs to lay down.
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Feb 3, 2015 14:57
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AngryCaterpillar posted:This Reigns/Bryan angle seems like a test for crowd reactions. I wouldn't be surprised if Vince waits until the match so he can get in the ref's ear and tell him who needs to lay down. i would be
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Feb 3, 2015 15:02
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I haven't watched in months, but is this Bryan/Reigns match WWE scrambling in response to the fans making GBS threads all over the Rumble?
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Feb 3, 2015 15:07
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Red posted:Austin's matches as The Ringmaster in early 1996 are the same as they'd have been in 1999. i feel like everyone is taking my post way too literally
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Feb 3, 2015 15:12
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Retail Slave posted:I haven't watched in months, but is this Bryan/Reigns match WWE scrambling in response to the fans making GBS threads all over the Rumble? Seems quite possible given that an earlier plan for Fast Lane was rumored to be Reigns vs. Show in an LMS. Not sure what Reigns beating Bryan is supposed to accomplish though.
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Feb 3, 2015 15:12
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Cardboard Box posted:is roman reigns going to beat daniel bryan at fast lane Yes and he's going to be the first guy to kick out of the knee, too.
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Feb 3, 2015 15:16
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oatgan posted:The best part of the interview last night was when Austin asked Triple H which was more important, the nwo or dx, and Triple H had to work out in his head a way to say that DX was My favourite part was when Austin asked HHH for his thoughts on Bret Hart. HHH said Bret "took the business too seriously" or something like that, then Austin immediately came back with "but you said earlier that people need to believe in their gimmicks 100%!" Also HHH saying that they were really trying to get Punk over with the Nash program and then blamed it on Nash not being able to work and Vince making all the decisions. You know, the program where HHH put himself over Punk for no reason?
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Feb 3, 2015 15:22
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Lmfao, Bryan is going to drag reigns to a good match because that's what he does, people will say LOOK HOW MUCH REIGNS HAS IMPROVED and he'll beat Bryan after interference by Sheamus or some poo poo and have a stinker with Brock at Wrestlemania
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Feb 3, 2015 15:29
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Thauros posted:Seems quite possible given that an earlier plan for Fast Lane was rumored to be Reigns vs. Show in an LMS. Not sure what Reigns beating Bryan is supposed to accomplish though. And that HHH interview was a waste of time. It just came across as him endearing himself to internet fans. Is reddit going to send him another fruit basket? Cromulent fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 15:29
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Gonzo McFee posted:You don't want it to feel forced, though. Breaks the suspension of disbelief, innit? This right here is the biggest problem in WWE right now - they're not allowing enough guys to get over on their own merit. Any time someone gets the faintest hint of a crowd reaction, be it negative or positive, WWE has to gently caress it up by making changes that didn't need to happen and talking trash about legit GOOD wrestlers. Look at Cesaro - they say he can't connect with the crowd and all that garbage, yet before they decided to pair him with Heyman, he was getting cheered like crazy and people loved his feats of strength. Stupid decisions like that, along with terrible scripted promos/interviews are killing any momentum guys have to get themselves over - versus say, the Attitude era when guys like Austin were allowed to give their own promos off the cuff, and it felt less forced and more "real". Good example is Bret vs. Shawn during their whole feud before, during and after their WM 12 title match - people legit believed they didn't like each other, despite both guys saying in several interviews that that was the plan all along and they had no problems working together at the time.
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Feb 3, 2015 15:30
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Roman Reigns is going to beat Daniel Bryan at Fastlane, and the Memphis crowd will go crazy for it.
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Feb 3, 2015 15:37
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