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EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


CapitalistPig posted:

I bet the two scum teams are The Imperials and The Stormcloaks

I really don't think that's it, though.

The only way that's true is if Rarity told the truth about her flavor role and she's scum. If so then why did she claim it? That really would be like saying "I'm a godfather what's that" as her first post.

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Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

Nah that's because I'm a jerk, I call people dumb all the time in mafia games, it's one of my flaws that, when I look back on this game a while from now I will regret, but not enough to actually change my ways.

Also, this point: you're not just calling me dumb, you're painting my argument as dumb. this makes people want to disagree with the argument orhide the fact that they agree with it for fear of being called dumb themselves. You target me, but the true effect is meant to be felt by everyone else.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Byers, I think your argument is dumb.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Byers2142 posted:

This is not my point. My case is that scum apparently do have fakeclaims, which you knew because you're scum.
And I'm telling you your case is dumb. I went into the game thinking there were fakeclaims for the reasons I've listed. I'm sorry I didn't make my first post of the game "here is all my speculation about the game's setup looking at just the OP and the opening flavor!" to quell these concerns, but if you don't believe me, then that's on you. It's sort of a "your word against mine" situation.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Byers2142 posted:

Also, this point: you're not just calling me dumb, you're painting my argument as dumb. this makes people want to disagree with the argument orhide the fact that they agree with it for fear of being called dumb themselves. You target me, but the true effect is meant to be felt by everyone else.

Yeah you're heading off the deep end here.

I'm gonna post about something else now.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

I mean let's reread this warning:

I could see how someone could read this and think, "yeah, the mafias don't have fakeclaims, it says right there flavor is a clue for alignment." But I see this and think, because it was posted publicly, it's not directed specifically towards the mafia - it's for everyone in the game. It's telling the town that flavor matters. This is in contrast to a game where flavor doesn't matter - an X-Men game where Professor X is scum, for instance. In that kind of game nobody needs fakeclaims because there is a disconnect between source alignment and game alignment.

In a game where flavor matters, the solution to scum being up against a wall with incriminating flavor is to give them fakeclaims. It's a really easy thing to do.

I concede it's possible we are in a game where the scum are all Dark Brotherhood vs. Thieves Guild (or some other opposing pairs), and the scum have no fakeclaims, so as soon as someone says they're Astrid it's as good as scumclaiming, and the scum can't lie about their identities without potentially being counterclaimed or making a claim that doesn't fit with the flavor at all. It's certainly possible.

But the alternative - that Exakt just gave them fakeclaims - is just so much more sensible.

This is what I mean. This is all smoke. It's designed to point out why Ecco's explanation is the right one that all town should have reached on their own. And it is irrelevant. Look at Ecco's posts, she accepts the fact of a fakclaim first, then justifies why they must exist logically later. Then when that argument is found flawed, she moved to this arguement. It's" just so much more sensible" is a phrase meant to make you want to side with her and not the big dumb Byers and his crazy ideas that I am not even arguing.

Epsilon Plus
Dec 30, 2006







I'm not too interested in voting Rarity. Still want to vote Squid or Chili, and I don't like Chili's responses so far. ##vote Chili

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Asiina posted:

Byers, I think your argument is dumb.

Because?

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

Yeah you're heading off the deep end here.

I'm gonna post about something else now.

I don't think I am; I think you refuse to engage in the case as I made it, and when I rebuffed your attempt to turn it into game design chat you're cutting your losses and hoping people won't listen to me.

CapitalistPig
Nov 3, 2005

You turn the corner and see a greenskinned fuckmidget.
Roll for initiative.

##vote ecco

Sandwolf
Jan 23, 2007

i'll be harpo



Byers I think you're barking up the wrong tree, too :/

Sandwolf
Jan 23, 2007

i'll be harpo



Also I think I want to vote Asiina more than Rarity rn

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer


I think that it's not unreasonable to expect that there are fakeclaims, and what you call "backfilling" is what I call explaining her reasoning. You put pressure on Ecco to explain why she thought there were fakeclaims, and so she's explaining it. Trying to paint providing an explanation as scummy is a dumb argument.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Asiina posted:

I think that it's not unreasonable to expect that there are fakeclaims, and what you call "backfilling" is what I call explaining her reasoning. You put pressure on Ecco to explain why she thought there were fakeclaims, and so she's explaining it. Trying to paint providing an explanation as scummy is a dumb argument.

No, I didn't. She began the explanation about why fakeclaims are in on her own. Initially, my only comment was that I expected Hadvar to be in the game. She started down this road because she realized that if she were going to sit on a case that requires fakeclaims, she needed a reason to think there are fakeclaims and that Rarity claimed hers. She anticipated pressure and tried to get in front of it because her case was originally based on scum-gained knowledge. That is scummy.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Sandwolf posted:

Also I think I want to vote Asiina more than Rarity rn

I don't want to vote Rarity right now, period. Chili, either.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Byers let's assume I'm scum, scum got fakeclaims, and everything else you said is true.

Doesn't that support my case against Rarity? Doesn't that mean Rarity is more likely to have done what I said she did?

I await your unvote.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Repeating my Rarity case for a bit, because the underlying assumption - "scum got fakeclaims" - isn't actually the point.

EccoRaven posted:

If it is true that the scum are given fakeclaims, I could very easily see (and do see) a scum-Rarity thinking, "hey, I know! I normally claim in my first posts of D1, so I'll do it with my fakeclaim this time. That way I don't actually out myself (since my fakeclaim flavor puts me as someone not on Scum Faction B), but still get to play like I normally do. And if people call me out on it I can just go, 'gosh, whoops, sorry! oh no! I hope it turns out ok!' But of course it would, because I am evil, mwa ha ha ha." (it is well-established Rarity has perfected her evil laugh.)

Is it a "slam dunk?" Of course not. Is it "A SCUMSLIPPPP"? Only a little. But it's still pretty nice to go on in the first 24 hours of d1.

Sure, if scum weren't given fakeclaims then my point is invalid. I have reasons to believe they were, but debating that isn't really helpful, since all it does is just get us into pointless arguments when the only people who know the answer are scum and mod.

More helpful would be criticizing the Rarity case on its merits - telling me why, even if I'm right about fakeclaims, I'm wrong about Rarity.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

Byers let's assume I'm scum, scum got fakeclaims, and everything else you said is true.

Doesn't that support my case against Rarity? Doesn't that mean Rarity is more likely to have done what I said she did?

I await your unvote.

That makes it marginally more likely, yes. Scum revealing their fakeclaim right away is marginally less dumb than town revealing their real claim right away, as it's less destructive.

I do like that you've now reached "Ok, assume you're right about your case on me, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong about Rarity!" I'll make you a deal. You scum claim, right now, and tell us your fake claim. If your fake claim is uncountered and is a Stormcloak, I promise I will vote Rarity and only Rarity tomorrow and will badger every other player to do so as well. It will put your scum teams back in balance, and your team is guaranteed not to eat a lynch tomorrow. This is the best offer you'll get.

Epsilon Plus
Dec 30, 2006







Byers2142 posted:

I don't want to vote Rarity right now, period. Chili, either.

Well I guess you're sitting this day out because, while I don't agree with Ecco's position, I feel it comes from a town mindset.

Epsilon Plus
Dec 30, 2006







Byers2142 posted:

I do like that you've now reached "Ok, assume you're right about your case on me, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong about Rarity!" I'll make you a deal. You scum claim, right now, and tell us your fake claim. If your fake claim is uncountered and is a Stormcloak, I promise I will vote Rarity and only Rarity tomorrow and will badger every other player to do so as well. It will put your scum teams back in balance, and your team is guaranteed not to eat a lynch tomorrow. This is the best offer you'll get.

hahahaha what the gently caress is this, you loony

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

So much tunneling on extremely flimsy cases.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Byers2142 posted:

I do like that you've now reached "Ok, assume you're right about your case on me, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong about Rarity!"
No, this is me moving on, because your point is dumb and I've explained why multiple times. I'm not going to keep giving it attention anymore.

Asiina posted:

So much tunneling on extremely flimsy cases.

Welcome To Day One: The Movie.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Byers2142 posted:

If your fake claim is uncountered and is a Stormcloak,

Mafia edit: in retrospect, being a Stormcloak isn't something that would matter, so drop that but the offer stands except for that caveat.

EccoRaven posted:

More helpful would be criticizing the Rarity case on its merits - telling me why, even if I'm right about fakeclaims, I'm wrong about Rarity.

Your case is literally that she claimed her fakeclaim. I have no idea how to determine whether Hadvar is a real or a fake claim.

Epsilon Plus
Dec 30, 2006







I guess the only good thing to come from this pointless discussion is that I'm pretty sure Byers is town, because scum wouldn't go ham with something so limp on Day 1.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Epsilon Plus posted:

Well I guess you're sitting this day out because, while I don't agree with Ecco's position, I feel it comes from a town mindset.

What do you think about Asiina and Opop, the other two people I've mentioned in my top three? It's not like we're in a situation where we have to lynch Rarity, Chili, or Ecco.

Sandwolf
Jan 23, 2007

i'll be harpo



Byers2142 posted:

Your case is literally that she claimed her fakeclaim. I have no idea how to determine whether Hadvar is a real or a fake claim.

No it isn't.

CapitalistPig
Nov 3, 2005

You turn the corner and see a greenskinned fuckmidget.
Roll for initiative.

Asiina posted:

So much tunneling on extremely flimsy cases.

##vote asiina

Sandwolf
Jan 23, 2007

i'll be harpo



Epsilon Plus posted:

I guess the only good thing to come from this pointless discussion is that I'm pretty sure Byers is town, because scum wouldn't go ham with something so limp on Day 1.

Newbie tip: scum can and will do anything. Never assume something is too outlandish/obvious/dumb to be scum.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Epsilon Plus posted:

I guess the only good thing to come from this pointless discussion is that I'm pretty sure Byers is town, because scum wouldn't go ham with something so limp on Day 1.

Nah, not to risk being accused of OMGUS, but I could easily see Byers being scum. He's making a dumb case so he posts content (-> avoid accusations of lurking but still gets ignored), it gives him an excuse to tunnel (-> doesn't have to vote scumbuddy should pressure come against one), and if somehow it works it takes out a strong mafia player (-> I'm pretty good at this game).

If Rarity flips scum you can toss in -> protecting a scumbuddy, too.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

No, I didn't. She began the explanation about why fakeclaims are in on her own. Initially, my only comment was that I expected Hadvar to be in the game. She started down this road because she realized that if she were going to sit on a case that requires fakeclaims, she needed a reason to think there are fakeclaims and that Rarity claimed hers. She anticipated pressure and tried to get in front of it because her case was originally based on scum-gained knowledge. That is scummy.

Also you're right, it wasn't you. It was fv.

fiery_valkyrie posted:

It doesn't read to me as either fake-accidental or real-accidental.

I also don't understand the flavour arguments around that character since I haven't played Skyrim. Some people think the flavour is firmly town and some people think it is scum?

It still doesn't change the fact that she was asked to provide her reasoning.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Sandwolf posted:

Newbie tip: scum can and will do anything. Never assume something is too outlandish/obvious/dumb to be scum.

Yes, listen to your mafia dad, EP!

But no, he's right, I'm perfectly capable of acting like a loon as scum. Especially when, as I pointed out way at the beginning, scum are still able to scumhunt this game because there are two scum teams. EP, why would you go "Yep, that dumb mother fucker's town?"

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Asiina posted:

Also you're right, it wasn't you. It was fv.

It still doesn't change the fact that she was asked to provide her reasoning.

That was well after she started backfilling. Here's the starting posts, for reference. notice when she starts explaining how a town player might immediately believe there are fakeclaims, and how no one had started in on that avenue of discussion yet.

EccoRaven posted:

##unvote ##vote rarity

straight up she just scumclaimed. she got a fakeclaim because she's a scumbo and she's trying to slip that fakeclaim "accidentally" to make it seem legitimate.

let's do this toot toot

Byers2142 posted:

No, Hadvar is pretty cool. Also is likely to be a town role. Which Ecco's saying you claimed because it makes you look town.

Ecco, I'd expect Hadvar to be in the game. If there's a counter, I'll vote Rarity. Otherwise, it's not enough for a vote.

EccoRaven posted:

which is why it's a good mod-given fakeclaim?

this is not a very good defense byers!

EccoRaven posted:

also fyi

there's two scumteams, so, just everyone keep that in mind. but that's why scum getting neutral town fakeclaims is even more likely.

Those posts are back to back. Ecco started down this path on her own.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EP, are you scum? I'm asking honestly; your reaction to my case on Ecco, my offer to her if she would scumclaim, and your desire to force today to be between Rarity, Ecco, and Chili (only one of which you want to vote), it's all very suspect.

Sandwolf posted:

No it isn't.

Ecco's case is. She distanced herself from the other cases on Rarity.

Epsilon Plus
Dec 30, 2006







Byers2142 posted:

What do you think about Asiina and Opop, the other two people I've mentioned in my top three? It's not like we're in a situation where we have to lynch Rarity, Chili, or Ecco.

Opop is Opop. He does this every game. It's kinda lovely that he's not really participatory until D2 but that's just his bag I guess.

Asiina participated in a lot of Skyrim-chat and is mostly asking questions about other people's cases than putting forward her own - which isn't a bad thing, BTW, particularly on D1. It feels like you're interested in her primarily because she rebuffed your claims.

Byers2142 posted:

EP, are you scum? I'm asking honestly; your reaction to my case on Ecco, my offer to her if she would scumclaim, and your desire to force today to be between Rarity, Ecco, and Chili (only one of which you want to vote), it's all very suspect.

What? My comment earlier was based on the fact that, as the votes stand, you're not likely to get votes on anyone except Chili, Rarity or Abyssal Squid. Furthermore, what kind of answer are you expecting for that question? Either I'm town and tell the truth or I'm scum and I'm lying. Either way I'm not going to say "yes I am scum, you have foiled my master plan by asking a question".

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Also, Ecco, my offer about your scum claim expires is you get a plurality of votes today; at that point, you've lost the bargaining power of that claim.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

That was well after she started backfilling. Here's the starting posts, for reference. notice when she starts explaining how a town player might immediately believe there are fakeclaims, and how no one had started in on that avenue of discussion yet.

Those posts are back to back. Ecco started down this path on her own.

I can sorta see your point with that last quote, since there's no real reason to add that in if you believe mods in flavour heavy games give fakeclaims but I still don't think it's enough on its own.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Asiina posted:

I can sorta see your point with that last quote, since there's no real reason to add that in if you believe mods in flavour heavy games give fakeclaims but I still don't think it's enough on its own.

It's better than the other cases put forward so far; that last post is Ecco backfilling her reason for the case, and she did so to get in front of a "how do you know there are fakeclaims?" case.

Epsilon Plus posted:

What? My comment earlier was based on the fact that, as the votes stand, you're not likely to get votes on anyone except Chili, Rarity or Abyssal Squid. Furthermore, what kind of answer are you expecting for that question? Either I'm town and tell the truth or I'm scum and I'm lying. Either way I'm not going to say "yes I am scum, you have foiled my master plan by asking a question".

Where did Squid come from? I said I didn't like the votes on Rarity and Chili, and you said that I would be left out of D1 then because my Ecco case wouldn't fly. That's a three-person choice, and nnow you're adding in more choices to hide that. And Squid, at this point, is less likely to get votes than Ecco.

Also, if you were town, why would you spend so much time attacking the "Are you scum?" question?

Ecco, do me a favor, can you give me your read on EP? I think there's something here.

Glockenapfel
Mar 9, 2013



##vote Asiina

Starting to get a "fake content" feel from the sidelines commenting, and I need to put my vote somewhere more productive before I sleep.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Byers2142 posted:

Ecco, do me a favor
No gently caress you

Asiina posted:

I can sorta see your point with that last quote, since there's no real reason to add that in if you believe mods in flavour heavy games give fakeclaims but I still don't think it's enough on its own.

It's important to note that the way Byers is framing this isn't accurate. He's trying to make me sound like I believe fakeclaims are necessary in all flavor-heavy games.

The distinction isn't about whether the flavor is light or heavy, it's about whether the flavor matters. In games where it does, then fakeclaims are the easiest way to avoid problems with having bad guys have bad roles. That there's two factions encourages the existence of fakeclaims, since I as a townie don't know exactly who the scum factions are, but I would be genuinely surprised if the scum were just as in the dark.

Epsilon Plus posted:

Either I'm town and tell the truth or I'm scum and I'm lying. Either way I'm not going to say "yes I am scum, you have foiled my master plan by asking a question".

Byers seems to think he can tell people to scumclaim and they would happily do so. It's very strange.

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Epsilon Plus
Dec 30, 2006







Byers2142 posted:

Where did Squid come from? I said I didn't like the votes on Rarity and Chili, and you said that I would be left out of D1 then because my Ecco case wouldn't fly. That's a three-person choice, and nnow you're adding in more choices to hide that. And Squid, at this point, is less likely to get votes than Ecco.

Also, if you were town, why would you spend so much time attacking the "Are you scum?" question?

Ecco, do me a favor, can you give me your read on EP? I think there's something here.

Are you incapable of reading a vote history? Abyssal Squid has had four people voting for him. I think the only people likely to be lynched, short a massive shift over by most of the thread, are those three. I'm not sure where you're getting this "adding more choices" thing, either. I feel like you're not actually reading my posts?

I'm attacking the question because it's a ridiculous thing to ask. Every single scum is going to lie to that question short of a few ridiculous niche cases that are not worth devoting text to. Why are you spending so much time

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