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Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011
At this point in my Fire Emblem career I've just started being tempted to reset anytime I get a really good level, because someone's just going to bite it one turn from the end, so I might as well save the time.

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Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Dr Pepper posted:

Funds , on the other hand, isn't based off anything the player does. Rather, it's based off what the player is not doing. It punishes you for using tools the game gives you. You don't get a good Funds rank for smart or flexible play. You get it for not using the fun stuff and instead use nothing but iron weapons forever.

Which is real funny, all things considered. One of the most engaging decisions in Fire Emblem is when, where, and how to use any limited use powerful items you're given. Changing that to "all iron all the time" is pretty boring.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Melth posted:

the worst weapon in the whole game.

Sounds like someone needs a dose of Trial by Devil Axe.


I was always under the impression that we're knocking Fargus's crew around a bit, but not actually trying to kill them. It's the only thing that really makes sense.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Dr Pepper posted:

My first playthrough I somehow mistook Heath for a prepromote and benched him instantly. :sweatdrop:

Also, I do not understand why they gave Isadora the stats they did. First off, 6 con, really?

It's like the only reason for her existence is if you somehow get Sain, Kent, Lowen, and Marcus all killed and really need a Paladin.

The worst thing is, looking at her -/5 stats and comparing them to the other cavaliers, they're not that terrible on their own. It's really the 6 con that brings her down. If she had the 9/10 of the others, then she'd actually fill her goal as the fast dodgy but weak paladin. Instead, her speed starts low enough that anything heavier than an iron sword makes her useless, and her strength starts low enough that anything weaker than a silver lance makes her useless.

I really think Intsys just didn't get how important Constitutio and speed, and thus doubling and dodging, were going to be when comparing units.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Fionordequester posted:

Actually, that's another thing I've been thinking about. What if all bows would have their range increased to being 2-3 Range instead of just 2 Range? That seems like it'd go a long way to solve the "archers being underpowered" problem, wouldn't it?

No. The problem with archers is that no matter how good they are, they can kill one thing per turn on the player phase barring some rare positioning interactions. Every other combat fighter can take out one thing on player phase and also fight as many things in range on enemy phase. Let's say there's five enemies in range, all with one range weapons. The archer can kill one. The fighter, mercenary, or what have you, can kill all five. No amount of stats and range can compare to doing literally 20% of the work on every turn.

Nomad troopers, warriors, and Lyn also have these problems, but they at least can use a bow for the two or three times a game you want one and then go back to using actually good weapons.

This is also the problem clerics, priests, and troubadors have. For fourteen to nineteen levels, at 11-15 EXP a turn, so somewhere around a hundred and fifty turns in a game where you spend seven to fifteen a chapter in a game where there's twenty to twenty five chapters of work for your cleric...all this adds up into a unit that does nothing to actually help you kill things but is instead a liability. And unfortunately, it's not even a niche, because monks, mages, and shamans all promote into staff-wielding classes, so once they promote (which comes faster because they can enemy phase and get kills) then they can do the healing as well as fighting, and this doesn't even cost them anything, because as above, most combat happens on enemy phase, so spending your player phase to heal someone isn't a problem.

Basically, stuff is underpowered because counterattacking exists. Counterattacking is what makes javelins and handaxes better than bows. Counterattacking is what makes swords worse than axes and lances, and counterattacking is what makes healing classes an annoying necessity instead of a desired choice. In a roundabout way, counterattacking is what makes speed so important. After a certain point, speed halves the damage you take (disregarding evasion, which it of course also helps with), and after another certain point, speed doubles the damage you deal. Counterattacking being a thing means that avoiding that second strike makes speed a more important defensive stat than defense, and speed doubling your damage on everything attacking you makes speed a more important offensive stat than strength.

Fire Emblem balance is absolutely laughable, and there's not really any way to fix it, actually fix it, without tearing down the gameplay foundations from the very first game.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Fionordequester posted:

Hmm...what if bows just flat out had the ability to be 1-2 Range? And then Snipers would get 3 Range instead of being able to have access to a second weapon type, like mages would have?

Now archers are occupying the exact same design space as magic using classes except they target a different defense and get extra damage on fliers. Magic classes which, by the way, are already the most cramped design space in the series, as you have five different types who all use the same mechanics; three of them are even functionally identical, and so are the other two to each other. To top it all off, they all promote into the same thing.

The hypothetical nu!archer promoting into 1-3 range is a good idea, though, as it differentiates them some.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Fionordequester posted:

So? Sounds good to me. What's the problem with that? I mean, they're still differentiated both by their targeting different defences, presumably having higher Con and Def than magicians, and also by the fact that they never have either WTD or WTA. And then also them getting more range rather than getting more magical options on promotion. That seems like enough to me :shrug:.


Trasson posted:

Magic classes which, by the way, are already the most cramped design space in the series, as you have five different types who all use the same mechanics; three of them are even functionally identical, and so are the other two to each other. To top it all off, they all promote into the same thing.

Magic classes are already way too similar to each other, especially in the early game. Adding in a fourth attacking mage (but with a slight difference!) does not do a drat thing to distinguish archers.

You have to realize, +10% here, -1 damage there, doesn't distinguish a character or class in Fire Emblem. Right now, archers have the problem of sucking. All right, you make them more similar to magic users, who also regularly attack at range. Now every archer needs to be stacked up to a magic users, except that magic users are generally better (Res is lower than Def on basically everything, the weapon triangle is a joke, and staves are useful always where the same can't be said for +1 range).

Let's take FE7. You have Wil and Rebecca for archers, and Rath for a nomad. No one says Rath sucks aside from join time, so we'll ignore him. Then, for magic users, we have Erk and Pent (mage/sage), Lucius (monk), Canas (shaman), Serra (cleric), and Priscilla (troubador). There's also three more we haven't met in the LP for all two of you who haven't played the game, but none of them matter because they join so late.

If you make Wil and Rebecca functionally equivalent to magic users, then all you get is a massive blob of seven 1-2 range attackers with very little differentiation. One of them has a higher crit rate, one of them can use Luna, one of them is on a horse, and two of them have bows. That's it for actual functional differences. The archers are better than they were before, but at the cost of making them boring. Nothing about any of that tells me that Wil and Rebecca are any better in a given situation than Erk, Lucius, or Canas. Nothing about that screams "wow, archers are really neat to use!".

Look at Cavaliers. There's five of them in this game and they all stand out from the crowd due to getting extra movement and rules, as well as an extra weapon type even over the other things that move far. For that matter, Pegasi and Wyverns even manage to be different in this game, and that's thanks to the massive stat differences even though they get the same movement and weapon types.

In fact, a lot of classes manage to differentiate themselves. Funny, so do archers. However, the best way to make archers good is to make them like an already good class, as you've stumbled upon. In that case, why even have a different class?

Actually, come to think of it, I think that's the best plan. Get rid of any exclusive bow using class and promotion. No more archers and snipers. Nomads maybe can stay, or maybe just give them swords as nomads already and add on something else on promotion. Warriors and Lyn are fine, FE9 Paladins, all that. Just all bow classes.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

weso12 posted:

In conclusion fire emblem has long since sacrificed balance game design for the fun of being able to sweep an army.

Those aren't mutually existing goals that need one to be compromised for another, though. It's possible to have balanced game design and the fun of sweeping an entire army. You just need to make it so everyone can contribute evenly on sweeping an entire army. The problem is, they don't. 60% Strength growth isn't equal to 60% Speed growth, and 17 Skill and 17 Speed are not even remotely as equally important to your combat as the similar numbers would say, but these are treated as so by the game design. That's the problem.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011
My view is this: calling anything in a single player experience cheating is a bit of a loaded statement. Even if it technically is, we can all agree there's a large gap between using a glitch to make a game easier than intended and, say, trying to look at your opponent's hand in a card game.

As for the aforementioned single player experiences, it depends on what you're trying to do. If you're doing what Melth is and deliberately undergoing a specific challenge with the intention of showing off your skills and knowledge, then going and using the Mine glitch or such is definitely out of the spirit of what you're trying to do. The last part is the important thing.

Let's say you're doing what we're seeing in the thread here, trying to max rank Hector Hard Mode. If your goal is merely to get those five stars in each category on your info screen, it doesn't really matter how you do it. If you feel one way of doing it is more or less legitimate than another, then go with whatever you feel. As long as you enjoy how you get there, then have fun.

If you're deliberately trying to show off your skills, showing how you can conquer a challenge within whatever limits you've set down, then that's where you don't want to be doing anything untoward. This gets difficult, of course, but it's all about the limits of however you decide to play. It doesn't take much skill or knowledge of the game in order to place a mine, soft-reset, and make everything drop their weapons. Anyone can get through a really hard map that way.

Some games this is harder in. For example, a challenge run in Final Fantasy VI (not Advance) would naturally be taking advantage of the glitch that makes Magic Evasion count for both physical and magic evasion. Not even by community acceptance or anything, just that it's impossible to not use that glitch.

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Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011
Killing Kishuna with magic. I don't think anything in Light is going to top that, unfortunately, though I'm sure you'll try.

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