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SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


So, I've been noticing a lot of video games recently seem to have two recurring flaws. One, they're too loving short and yet cost 50-60 dollars for some reason. But that's another topic. Two, all bosses or the very final boss is a Quick Time Event.

Dying Light? Your final fight is with an armless dude and you hit 10 buttons. Shadow of Mordor? You beat Sauron, the Lord of the god drat Rings, within the span of 10 seconds and 5 button presses. And I hear that The Order: 1886 also ends itself with a QTE instead of anything satisfying. I thought the whole point of a final fight was to use everything you learned in the game and have a good time. I don't understand how making you watch a cutscene where some goofy evil bastard who takes himself too seriously monologues and occasionally you have to press the A or X button a few times is fun. Do you guys know why this is the case? Is it really that hard for people to beat a video game that they gotta make the bosses easy?

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Looper
Mar 1, 2012



Play Platinum games

multijoe
Oct 15, 2007

how do i say this ... the first time i saw that ultimate life form ... i had a boner

Fun Shoe

Because they're cinematic experiences, not challenges

Looper posted:

Play Platinum games

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


Looper posted:

Play Platinum games

I do, though. Maybe I should have made the title "Why are modern Western boss fights so lovely?"

Falsum
May 10, 2013

Crazy for the Bros

Because challenging players right at the end makes poorer players sad and that's a big no-no in modern game design.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused


Are we gonna pretend most old games had good boss fights though? They were different, but lovely in their own way. Most bosses in platformer games had you repeat the same piss easy action 3 times for the kill. Some of these bosses looked cool but they sure as hell weren't difficult to fight. I think most games have always had lovely bosses.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Love does not end.


have western games ever had good boss fights

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008



SunAndSpring posted:

I do, though. Maybe I should have made the title "Why are modern Western boss fights so lovely?"

no pure nihonjin blood, unfortunately

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Endorph posted:

have western games ever had good boss fights

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


Endorph posted:

have western games ever had good boss fights

I can think of a few, but they're mostly just platformers like Sly Cooper or RPGs such as Baldur's Gate 2. I guess Nippon wins.

lewtt
Apr 2, 2011



The Great Twist

Companies don't trust people to make their super cool boss fight look as cool as they thought it was, so they just play it for them

Let's Play's are being embraced at a developer level, what have we done

Cowman
Feb 14, 2006

Beware the cow

Other than Platinum games I can't really think of a final boss fight that was worthwhile. Oh wait, Shadow of the Colossus had a great final boss fight.

low quality jpeg
Mar 10, 2012



MGS boss fights are best imo

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Love does not end.


the final boss of Modern JRPG Classic Tales of Xillia 2 was cool because hes basically just a boxer and you even had to fight him like a boxing match - stick and move, because if you let him get a clean hit in on you you were going down.

most of the other tales games have decent final bosses too. graces's is a little overcomplicated in terms of the gimmick but still a fun fight

Agnostalgia
Dec 22, 2009


Dragon's Dogma had a fun final boss, as long as you consider everything past the end credits to be the post-game cause the Seneschal sucked almost as much as a QTE would have.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNUNLh2YF9Q

Nelson Mandingo
Mar 27, 2005



It's a shame because only stuff like World of Warcraft have good boss fights anymore.

Western game boss fights are typically awful, but Japanese games tend to have the most memorable and cinematic boss fights.

Broken Cog
Dec 28, 2009

MAKE SURE TO EXPLAIN JOKES TO ME BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT


Revengeance.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010



also, video games are cheaper in real terms than they've ever been.

Seriously, Mario 64 launched at 70 dollars in 1995 bucks. Chrono trigger for 80. That would be over a hundred bucks if games kept up with inflation. Meanwhile, the cost to make them has gone up exponentially each generation. and the only reason they were hard or long was because people sucked at video games.

i always lol at people who whine about games being too expensive/short these days. especially since, besides nintendo, everything goes on sale all the loving time for ridiculous price drops.

DOUBLE CLICK HERE
Feb 5, 2005
WA3

Endorph posted:

Modern JRPG Classic Tales of

u anime dorks are rly pushin' it


also for western boss fites that aren't complete pushovers, I guess FTL?

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


low quality jpeg posted:

MGS boss fights are best imo

God I love the MG Rex fight.

multijoe
Oct 15, 2007

how do i say this ... the first time i saw that ultimate life form ... i had a boner

Fun Shoe

Cowman posted:

Other than Platinum games I can't really think of a final boss fight that was worthwhile. Oh wait, Shadow of the Colossus had a great final boss fight.



Japanese developers generally seem more at ease putting mechanics at the forefront and designing games around cool encounters and challenges rather easily completable 'content' and scripted sequences, I think western bossfights being bad is to an extent just a side effect of western games having trash, boring design all over, especially as most of the honourable exceptions (Baldur's Gate, Metroid Prime, Doom to name a few) are design heavy games themselves

Nelson Mandingo
Mar 27, 2005



Internet Kraken posted:

Are we gonna pretend most old games had good boss fights though? They were different, but lovely in their own way. Most bosses in platformer games had you repeat the same piss easy action 3 times for the kill. Some of these bosses looked cool but they sure as hell weren't difficult to fight. I think most games have always had lovely bosses.

I think mechanically older boss fights might not be interesting, but on a cinematic level they were impressive. Here is a good example. On a mechanical level it's very basic, but the presentation is great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mGOFQVhtFs

In this day and age, you don't have good mechanics or any kind of cinematic presentation.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


I've also seen articles where game journalists get upset at the concept of a boss fight. I wonder if that contributes to anything. I bet if I posted this on some shithole like NeoGAF or The Escapist, I'd find idiots coming out of the woodwork to say "Oh, boss fights aren't cinematic. They're a relic of the past."

SunAndSpring fucked around with this message at Feb 16, 2015 around 22:31

Geight
Aug 7, 2010

Oh, All-Knowing One, behold me!


A Steampunk Gent posted:

Japanese developers generally seem more at ease putting mechanics at the forefront and designing games around cool encounters and challenges rather easily completable 'content' and scripted sequences, I think western bossfights being bad is to an extent just a side effect of western games having trash, boring design all over, especially as most of the honourable exceptions (Baldur's Gate, Metroid Prime, Doom to name a few) are design heavy games themselves

While Doom has wonderful design and mechanics, the boss fights of every officially-released WAD are actually pretty lackluster. In the 20 years of custom content since then people have managed to make a few memorable map30s, though!

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


SunAndSpring posted:

I've also seen articles where game journalists get upset at the concept of a boss fight. I wonder if that contributes to anything. I bet if I posted this on some shithole like NeoGAF or The Escapist, I'd find idiots coming out of the woodwork to say "Oh, boss fights aren't cinematic. They're a relic of the past."

A RPS review of Guacamelee said, in all seriousness, that boss fights in all games should be skippable just like cutscenes.

Broken Cog
Dec 28, 2009

MAKE SURE TO EXPLAIN JOKES TO ME BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT


Well if we're gonna put indie games into the mix, Wings of Vi has probably the absolute best designed Final Bossfight I've ever played in a 2D platformer.
It's hard as nails, forces you to use literally everything you have learned throughout the entire game, and requires you to have 100% focus throughout the entire fight, but it is completely fair. Every attack has a tell and a pattern, and is avoidable if you react fast enough.

The_White_Crane
May 10, 2008


Cowman posted:

Oh wait, Shadow of the Colossus had a great final boss fight.

I must respectfully disagree. SotC is one of my favourite games ever, but I still think the last Colossus was one of the worst in the game. He didn't even loving move!

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


Oh, and the game journalists really seem to dislike Japan in general too. Remember all those articles about how Japan was "falling behind" the West? Yeah, all those Super Smash Bros and 3DS sales are just flukes. People totally hate Japan.

Cryohazard
Feb 5, 2010


Indie games tend to have pretty stellar final boss fights. Iji, Rogue Legacy, Cave Story, Nuclear Throne spring to mind.

"Modern" boss fights are so lovely because a lot of modern games are FPS or Sports or Ubisoft or some lovely formulaic garbage. Formulaic garbage isn't exactly a new thing, but it having AAA budgets and selling fucktons, that's something that's only started to happen over the past 5-10 years.

Justin_Brett
Oct 23, 2012

GAMERDOME put down LOSER

Pretty much. You got people saying boss fights are videogamey, nobody likes them, they're busy-work, and it all feels like excuses for devs not being able to make good ones.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Love does not end.


SunAndSpring posted:

I've also seen articles where game journalists get upset at the concept of a boss fight. I wonder if that contributes to anything. I bet if I posted this on some shithole like NeoGAF or The Escapist, I'd find idiots coming out of the woodwork to say "Oh, boss fights aren't cinematic. They're a relic of the past."
as usual, idiots have taken a fairly reasonable concept (not every game needs boss fights, and trying to shoehorn them in can lead to really awkward and hilarious writing) and stretched it to a ridiculous extreme that no one can agree with (no game should have boss fights)

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


are there any FPSes with final bosses that you'd actually call good (instead of memorable, I guess? I freaking love Hans Grosse and Robo-Hitler but they aren't exactly the deepest fights in the history of FPS gaming)

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Love does not end.


Alain Post posted:

are there any FPSes with final bosses that you'd actually call good (instead of memorable, I guess? I freaking love Hans Grosse and Robo-Hitler but they aren't exactly the deepest fights in the history of FPS gaming)
can i say that the citadel is the final boss of half life 2

Anonymous Robot
Jun 1, 2007

Lost his leg in Robo War I


I've been enjoying the boss fights in Shovel Knight. They aren't quite difficult enough (I've beaten them all on the first go), but I like that they reward aggression rather than being strictly wait-for-telegraph, and it feels like the enemy characters have an array of options on par with the player's.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Endorph posted:

can i say that the citadel is the final boss of half life 2

as a whole it was a great climax, yeah. not a huge fan of the part at the very end where it turns into that atari game with the rotating shields, though

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



Switchblade Switcharoo

Justin_Brett posted:

Pretty much. You got people saying boss fights are videogamey, nobody likes them, they're busy-work, and it all feels like excuses for devs not being able to make good ones.

I really don't understand how that attitude could have even taken hold. Boss fights are like the climax of a game. They are or at least should be the most memorable part. But then I guess trash like "mumblecore" movies have somehow become a real genre.

Maybe this is just the result of too many years of awful bullet sponge bosses, and we need a savior (Platinum) to show everyone the light again.

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008



SunAndSpring posted:

Oh, and the game journalists really seem to dislike Japan in general too. Remember all those articles about how Japan was "falling behind" the West? Yeah, all those Super Smash Bros and 3DS sales are just flukes. People totally hate Japan.

Japan actually focuses more on mobile games than anything else. You basically just named one of the few companies still making handheld/console games. Also smash didn't move a lot of wii u's but it still sold a bunch.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


Like, you can have a difficult area be your final test if that makes more sense for your game. Dishonored had a nice enough final area for a High Chaos run, with lots of dudes and traps to evade. But I don't get the mentality of people who look at Senator Armstrong and think "Yeah, I wish this was a cutscene. This isn't fun at all."

^The 3DS is going strong, at least, but I think that's because Sony is too inept to compete in the handheld market.

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Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


the end of a game should be the hardest test of all the skills used in the game up to that point, and in shooters, you really are going to be hard-pressed to do that with a single enemy, so yeah, I guess it makes sense for shooters to end with a really difficult level instead of an actual boss fight. for character action, it makes much more sense, maybe?

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