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Eifert Posting posted:Pretty sure the pit bull martyrdom comes from the fact that large swaths of the country have laws that euth them on principle. Using y'all's GSD example, you'd probably be less likely to say "They're good dogs they just have a strong protection drive and that can make them unpredictable" if you knew the next county over people were gassing them in droves and you're one bored local town meeting away from having to move or lose your dog. No I get why they do it, because I started out exactly like them. My first pit bulls were rescues and I ate up rescuemom propaganda like crazy. The fact that most of them never move past it or evolve within their experience with the breed, resulting in them pawning rescue dog after rescue dog off on unsuspecting and unprepared families while telling them "ITS ALL IN HOW U RAISE THEM" is shooting themselves in the foot. Every shitbull you hand to a soccer mom is setting the scene for another "incident" to fuel the fires of bored lawmakers trying to pass BSL, and if they want fewer bans they need to pull their heads out of their asses and promote actual education and safe, responsible ownership.
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Feb 26, 2015 17:58
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Pixelated Dragon posted:My parents have a beagle mix and a cat. The beagle mix has a bum leg and bad back because she was hit by a car before my parents adopted her. When they got the kitten, they were best friends but now the dog growls at the cat and will sometimes half-assedly chase it. My parents don't know if it's play behavior or prey drive or what. They don't seem to care. They just want it gone. I think that she gets really cranky when other animals go near her back end while she's laying down because she's like that with other dogs too and the common thread seems to be that they're almost always right behind her when she growls. They have a plastic air cannon like this attachment and the dog is scared shitless of it, IDK why but if you just take it out and hold it up the dog will cower down and go hide quickly. They used to have one, I think they threw it out, and now they got another one to correct the dog's behavior towards the cat. What should they be doing instead? Yeah that doesn't sound like prey drive; I'd take it to the vet and see if there are no pain issues going on with its back end. Punishing it for warning other animals to stay away from it when it is either in pain or anticipating pain is just gonna make the dog stop growling and go straight to biting. A dog that growls is good. It's giving things a chance to back off before it moves to biting. Fraction posted:so basically everyone should just have show dogs right? Forcing a dog to prance around a ring is very abusive so show dogs are quite problematic indeed, fraction, QUITE problematic Fluffy Bunnies posted:
Lmao my childhood lab mix attacked me out of nowhere when she was old and hosed up and one of my pitbulls got her off me~
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Feb 26, 2015 18:05
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Superconsndar posted:Yeah that doesn't sound like prey drive; I'd take it to the vet and see if there are no pain issues going on with its back end. Punishing it for warning other animals to stay away from it when it is either in pain or anticipating pain is just gonna make the dog stop growling and go straight to biting. A dog that growls is good. It's giving things a chance to back off before it moves to biting. They do things to manage the dog's back end pain. She's on rimadyl, gabapentin, probably a few other things and the big guns for when she has really bad days. They have also started on laser therapy which seems to have helped. Honestly I think their cat's an idiot because dog language doesn't translate to cat language so he doesn't respond to the dog growling, and then when the dog half-assedly chases him away, she runs into the same corner instead of up onto her shelves. Pixelated Dragon fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 18:15
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Pixelated Dragon posted:They do things to manage the dog's back end pain. She's on rimadyl, gabapentin, probably a few other things and the big guns for when she has really bad days. They have also started on laser therapy which seems to have helped. Honestly I think their cat's an idiot because dog language doesn't translate to cat language so he doesn't respond to the dog growling, and then when the dog half-assedly chases him away, she runs into the same corner instead of up onto her shelves. Shoot both pets
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Feb 27, 2015 00:46
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Yeah prey drive doesn't involve warnings like growls. If you're trying to catch a tasty squirrel, you don't give it a heads up you're coming for it before you snatch it up. You stare, and fixate, and get blown pupils, and maybe hunker down a little, but you don't make a lot of noise UNLESS you're being restrained from Getting The Thing (for example on a leash), then you scream how frustrated you are that you can't Get The Thing.
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Feb 27, 2015 00:57
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I learned about Stick Drive from Dexter's Laboratory.
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Feb 27, 2015 01:19
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ButWhatIf posted:Yeah prey drive doesn't involve warnings like growls. If you're trying to catch a tasty squirrel, you don't give it a heads up you're coming for it before you snatch it up. You stare, and fixate, and get blown pupils, and maybe hunker down a little, but you don't make a lot of noise UNLESS you're being restrained from Getting The Thing (for example on a leash), then you scream how frustrated you are that you can't Get The Thing. this
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Feb 27, 2015 04:03
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ButWhatIf posted:Yeah prey drive doesn't involve warnings like growls. If you're trying to catch a tasty squirrel, you don't give it a heads up you're coming for it before you snatch it up. You stare, and fixate, and get blown pupils, and maybe hunker down a little, but you don't make a lot of noise UNLESS you're being restrained from Getting The Thing (for example on a leash), then you scream how frustrated you are that you can't Get The Thing. How does that work with scent hounds though? My dogs only react to scents every once and a blue moon, but when they do it's time for running and yipping/baying. Seems kinda of counter intuitive.
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Feb 27, 2015 04:34
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I've seen my parents' dog and the dog I grew up with chase after squirrels and small critters while barking and growling. I have no doubt they would have killed the small critters if they weren't too slow. Was it just play behavior or some other behavior that I was misinterpreting?
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Feb 27, 2015 06:06
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Pixelated Dragon posted:I've seen my parents' dog and the dog I grew up with chase after squirrels and small critters while barking and growling. I have no doubt they would have killed the small critters if they weren't too slow. Was it just play behavior or some other behavior that I was misinterpreting? I'm guessing they're really more about "chase / get outta here!" than "KILL", half the time when a dog runs after something they don't know wtf they're going to do if they catch it. My mam's collie mix shows both behaviours, he barks at and chases cats but takes off after rabbits like a stealth fighter (I still think he would kill cats in the unlikely event that he caught one though).
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Feb 27, 2015 09:06
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Some dogs get so excited by the prospect of chasing a thing that they'll start to vocalise. My BC is the silent/stalk type (surprising I know) but will run up to and bark in the face of geese/swans, and quite often my JRT will chase the BC when in pursuit of something shrieking her stupid little head off. Growling seems an odd choice for a dog to make though.
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Feb 27, 2015 09:42
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hopeandjoy posted:How does that work with scent hounds though? My dogs only react to scents every once and a blue moon, but when they do it's time for running and yipping/baying. Seems kinda of counter intuitive. Well racoon hunting dogs were tracked by their owner by their baying so they were encouraged to bark their fool heads off. Barrrooooooooooo 
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Feb 27, 2015 14:49
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Pixelated Dragon posted:I've seen my parents' dog and the dog I grew up with chase after squirrels and small critters while barking and growling. I have no doubt they would have killed the small critters if they weren't too slow. Was it just play behavior or some other behavior that I was misinterpreting? Ires and Kaydee chase the gently caress out of anything that moves while Ires shrieks at the top of her lungs. Occasionally they catch it and literally land on it and oh no, it died, you guys, what the hell do I do with it? So they sadly sniff it then sometimes bring it to me because their toy broke dude that's not cool. I think they've only eaten one or two things and one of them was a squirrel that they played tug with and oh hey, it was like a dog pinata. I wanna get some non-lovely little rc car and tie a rabbit skin to it and drive it all over the yard so they lose their loving minds AND so their toy can't break.
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Feb 27, 2015 18:30
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My dogs go into silent wide-eyed hellmode when they wanna get something because their senses are overwhelmed by their lust for blood
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Feb 27, 2015 19:47
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Fraction posted:so basically everyone should just have show dogs right? Yeah right up until you watch that BBC Documentary http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/ I just made me feel sorry for the dogs and no matter how people try to say it was biased or otherwise edited you still had breeders on camera saying there was nothing wrong with inbreeding and oh yeah I would get a vet to put down puppies that didn't have breed characteristics.
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Feb 27, 2015 20:14
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BigPaddy posted:Yeah right up until you watch that BBC Documentary http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/ I just made me feel sorry for the dogs and no matter how people try to say it was biased or otherwise edited you still had breeders on camera saying there was nothing wrong with inbreeding and oh yeah I would get a vet to put down puppies that didn't have breed characteristics. Inbreeding isnt why show dogs are hosed
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Feb 27, 2015 23:03
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BigPaddy posted:Yeah right up until you watch that BBC Documentary http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/ I just made me feel sorry for the dogs and no matter how people try to say it was biased or otherwise edited you still had breeders on camera saying there was nothing wrong with inbreeding and oh yeah I would get a vet to put down puppies that didn't have breed characteristics. Sweetie I think you misunderstood my post
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Feb 27, 2015 23:11
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Fraction posted:Sweetie I think you misunderstood my post I personally only buy APBTs from conformation breeders; it is how I know I am getting a correct and sound dog.
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Feb 28, 2015 19:14
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lol if your dogs ped isnt a straight line
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Feb 28, 2015 19:21
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Triangulum posted:lol if your dogs ped isnt a straight line
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Feb 28, 2015 19:26
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Superconsndar posted:I personally only buy APBTs from conformation breeders; it is how I know I am getting a correct and sound dog. The STANDARD is what a dog need to MEET to have the CORRECT FORM to FUNCTION. 
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Feb 28, 2015 21:02
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Do Staffordshire Bull Terriers have the same levels of dog aggression as properly bred Pit Bulls? I sort of assumed that they were a separate branch of Bull and Terrier designed for being a house pet with a lower drive, but I really don't know. Came up when I stumbled onto a hyperbolic anti-pitbull website (I have an English Bull Terrier so I was just googling some information) and they had this statement about "Currently, there is no movement within the Pit Bull Breeding Community to produce and sell a safer Pit Bull. " and I was like "well isn't that just a staffordshire BT" but then I realized I have no idea what the differences are.
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Mar 1, 2015 06:11
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Staffordshires are the one that look like they'd feel more comfortable in a wifebeater
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Mar 1, 2015 08:41
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the english staffie is some generations further removed from being a fighting dog than the APBT but still has an appreciably higher incidence of dog/prey aggression. they are not designed to be a house pet, only toy breeds claim that sort of distinction. love staffies but they will eat a kids face in a second and never know they did wrong.
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Mar 1, 2015 12:29
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Periodiko posted:Do Staffordshire Bull Terriers have the same levels of dog aggression as properly bred Pit Bulls? I sort of assumed that they were a separate branch of Bull and Terrier designed for being a house pet with a lower drive, but I really don't know. Came up when I stumbled onto a hyperbolic anti-pitbull website (I have an English Bull Terrier so I was just googling some information) and they had this statement about "Currently, there is no movement within the Pit Bull Breeding Community to produce and sell a safer Pit Bull. " and I was like "well isn't that just a staffordshire BT" but then I realized I have no idea what the differences are. Basically, APBTs and Staffords came from the same stock of bull/terrier crosses used as pit dogs in mostly England and Ireland. The pit dogs that came to America diverged and formed their own working lines in America that would eventually become APBTs. The ones that stayed in Europe became Staffords. They were both developed for pit work; but the American APBT became more specialized as exclusively a pit dog, while the Stafford was a little more loosely developed in that there was a lot more dabbling in hunting and ratting and other sports and less focus on developing them as a specific type of extremely specialized pit dog like with the APBT. There are still working Staffs who still do pit work in Europe and a lot of old fighting lines still exist, you just don't see them, for obvious reasons. The Amstaff was developed in the US and the way they came to be is complicated and full of stupid politics: basically show people with non-working trash pits wanted to show them in the AKC and wanted the breed recognized. The AKC didn't want to touch the breed because of its association with dog fighting; and showmoms being showmoms, (who already had their own bloodlines of driveless show pits who hadn't seen the inside of a dog pit in generations) agreed to change the name from "American Pit Bull Terrier" to "American Staffordshire Terrier" so that the AKC would let them in and they could show their dumb crap dogs. They wanted nice, boring, driveless show dogs that made nice boring companions and that is what they did with the Amstaff and that is what Amstaffs are. Bull Terriers (the ones with the egg heads) were basically the 19th century version of the Amstaff. Someone started pulling all white puppies from game APBT litters because they decided they looked ~fancy~ and then crossed them with some now extinct terriers to exaggerate their head shape and bred them away from dog aggression/prey drive to make a nice boring show dog and house pet. There are working lines of bull terriers but they are very uncommon. Then recently we have American Bullys, which are the stupid XXL blue/red hippo dogs that are everywhere today. They were created in the 80's by crossing APBTs, Staffs, Bulldogs, and Mastiffs to make another boring show breed based on aesthetics. So basically American Pit Bull Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are the two working breeds that diverged from the "source" stock of bull and terrier crosses. The American Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, and American Bully are all show/companion derivatives taken from them. When people make the "why can't we just make pit bulls that are companions!!" argument I want to smash my head into walls, because it's already been done three times over with the above breeds. More if you take into account UKC show/weightpull APBT lines and show Stafford lines.
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Mar 1, 2015 18:35
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Theoretically AmStaffs should have had the crazy drive bred out of them, but that's not how it always works out in practice, right?
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Mar 1, 2015 19:34
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Pixelated Dragon posted:Theoretically AmStaffs should have had the crazy drive bred out of them, but that's not how it always works out in practice, right? It really depends on how the dog is bred. A big problem is that people can't tell various bully breeds apart by looking at them. Like seriously, even if you know a lot about various bully breeds, there is so much type variation and crossover that you really don't know what a dog is unless it is registered and you have its pedigree. And even then, a lot of dogs that are registered as one bully breed actually have a genetic background that is comprised mostly of a different bully breed; due to a bunch of factors (dual registration is a big one) so unless you really know how to read pedigrees, you don't know what you have. The average person with a rescued "Amstaff" does not know that their dog is actually an Amstaff. The average BYB with "Amstaffs" does not know that their dogs are actually Amstaffs. The same goes for the other bully breeds. Even a lot of show ladies have no loving clue how to read the pedigrees of their own drat dogs. So, theoretically, a well bred Amstaff would probably lack drive and be a big shameful boring dog lump. Most of the show staffs I have met fit this description. In practice, the average dog that gets called, adopted, sold, or registered as an Amstaff may or may not be and depending on it's background lol who the gently caress knows.
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Mar 1, 2015 19:51
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Superconsndar posted:It really depends on how the dog is bred. A big problem is that people can't tell various bully breeds apart by looking at them. Like seriously, even if you know a lot about various bully breeds, there is so much type variation and crossover that you really don't know what a dog is unless it is registered and you have its pedigree. And even then, a lot of dogs that are registered as one bully breed actually have a genetic background that is comprised mostly of a different bully breed; due to a bunch of factors (dual registration is a big one) so unless you really know how to read pedigrees, you don't know what you have. The average person with a rescued "Amstaff" does not know that their dog is actually an Amstaff. The average BYB with "Amstaffs" does not know that their dogs are actually Amstaffs. The same goes for the other bully breeds. Even a lot of show ladies have no loving clue how to read the pedigrees of their own drat dogs. So, theoretically, a well bred Amstaff would probably lack drive and be a big shameful boring dog lump. Most of the show staffs I have met fit this description. In practice, the average dog that gets called, adopted, sold, or registered as an Amstaff may or may not be and depending on it's background lol who the gently caress knows. How did the genetic backgrounds get so muddled in the first place? Pixelated Dragon fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 20:04
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A type of dog bred for bloodsport by the lower/working class gets scooped up by showmoms and the general public (there were contingents of "it's all in how u raise them!!" pit bull owners 100 years ago, it isn't a new thing) who attempt to repeatedly rewrite their history while discrediting all info and knowledge by the people who created the dogs- partially due to class issues and partially because they didn't/don't understand the culture surrounding pit dogs (or acknowledge that it even exists) and refused to believe that there was organized selective breeding to create a certain type of dog; and that instead; "dog fighters" were just thugs who picked a random type of dog and breed it indiscriminately and abuse it randomly. So basically they discredit and brush aside 100+ years worth of pedigrees and breeding, refuse to attempt to understand what the dogs even are (could you imagine talking to a dog fighter!!!! Who could ever!!!) and make up their own history and start their own lovely bloodlines that go on to become Amstaffs/Bull Terriers/etc, and all of that diversion caused tons of confusion and drama because you have a bunch of idiots with dogs that they didn't understand with purposes they'd made up and hilariously mutted up pedigrees and they don't get the differences between the dogs they've created, the dogs they took them from, and the dogs that a show lady 1000 miles away created, and constantly interbreed them because they're dumb as poo poo and ultimately just want pretty dogs and don't have any clue what they're doing. They pass tons of confusing, incorrect, and conflicting information to the general public because Show People and Sport People are who the general public assumed knows the most about a breed, resulting in a general public who know even less about what kind of dogs they have, and the differences between them, than the dumb show ladies they got their crappy info from. ~Dog fighters~ continue to be the only people who know anything about the breed they created, and because their dogs were used as seed stock for all the bullshit vanity breeds, they are usually the only ones who can actually sit down and pick apart a dumb show dog pedigree and tell you what it is made of and where it came from and what it actually is, but they're too busy being discredited, arrested, imprisoned, and their dogs handed over to the above dumbasses in busts to correct anybody, and no one would listen anyway because "THEY ARE DOG FIGHTERS!!!" It's always baffled me how "someone creates a breed for distasteful purpose" = "nothing they say about what they created is true or valid, because they're yucky, let's just make some poo poo up instead."
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Mar 1, 2015 20:22
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So hounds are bred for modified prey drive. Meaning, we selected for "sniff out and chase they prey" but we added "bay your goddamned li'l hearts out" and "maybe don't maul and devour the critter we want to shoot*." Herders are the same way in that we took a natural [eye --> stalk --> chase --> grab --> kill --> dissect --> consume] process and stopped it right after "chase." A whole ton of behaviors that define a breed are just variations on this prey acquisition behavior. Retrievers are supposed to grab, but with a soft mouth. Livestock guardians are not supposed to show ANY of these behaviors (except to the predators trying to get the livestock). Sometimes, breeds develop extremely exaggerated forms of one of these steps, like EYE --> STALK --> chase in border collies. We call that a hypertrophied behavior. There's a really excellent book by Ray Coppinger that goes into more detail if anyone's interested (you might not be, I am aware that I am a big ol' ethology sperg). *YMMV based on breed of hound and type of prey
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Mar 3, 2015 03:12
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ButWhatIf posted:So hounds are bred for modified prey drive. Meaning, we selected for "sniff out and chase they prey" but we added "bay your goddamned li'l hearts out" and "maybe don't maul and devour the critter we want to shoot*." Herders are the same way in that we took a natural [eye --> stalk --> chase --> grab --> kill --> dissect --> consume] process and stopped it right after "chase." A whole ton of behaviors that define a breed are just variations on this prey acquisition behavior. Retrievers are supposed to grab, but with a soft mouth. Livestock guardians are not supposed to show ANY of these behaviors (except to the predators trying to get the livestock). Sometimes, breeds develop extremely exaggerated forms of one of these steps, like EYE --> STALK --> chase in border collies. We call that a hypertrophied behavior. There's a really excellent book by Ray Coppinger that goes into more detail if anyone's interested (you might not be, I am aware that I am a big ol' ethology sperg). I bought this book, got about 1/8 of the way in, and then I guess got distracted by other books or life or something and completely forgot that I had it. Thank you for reminding me, ilu.
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Mar 3, 2015 03:18
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Superconsndar posted:I bought this book, got about 1/8 of the way in, and then I guess got distracted by other books or life or something and completely forgot that I had it. Thank you for reminding me, ilu. you are v welcome (and if i get to visit i'll bring my SIGNED COPY to show u) ButWhatIf fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 03:37
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I don't have anything to add but I really enjoyed this thread. I have met quite a few people with the infuriating ~~pits are angels~~ mentality and what I've been told repeatedly is that Chihuahuas send more people to the ER every year. Think about it, MAN, which are the real bully breeds?
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Mar 3, 2015 04:00
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ButWhatIf posted:you are v welcome (and if i get to visit i'll bring my SIGNED COPY to show u) omg YOU'D BETTER. (OH GOD THAT PIC, SO JEALOUS) Watermelon City posted:I don't have anything to add but I really enjoyed this thread. I have met quite a few people with the infuriating ~~pits are angels~~ mentality and what I've been told repeatedly is that Chihuahuas send more people to the ER every year. Think about it, MAN, which are the real bully breeds? I really enjoy these threads because I do not often get a chance to yell about pit bulls, and they are possibly the only thing on this gross earth I can still bring itself to have feelings enough to type words about. For some reason. I don't know the reason.
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Mar 3, 2015 04:37
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Superconsndar posted:I bought this book, got about 1/8 of the way in, and then I guess got distracted by other books or life or something and completely forgot that I had it. Thank you for reminding me, ilu. please finish that book bc its basically the best dog book of all time, tia ps i hate you butwhatif i wanna hang out with coppinger
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Mar 3, 2015 05:37
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Watermelon City posted:I don't have anything to add but I really enjoyed this thread. I have met quite a few people with the infuriating ~~pits are angels~~ mentality and what I've been told repeatedly is that Chihuahuas send more people to the ER every year. Think about it, MAN, which are the real bully breeds? I have yet to encounter a chi in the hands of a responsible owner, and I live in suburban Florida so I see shitloads of them. The proper response to one of those ugly little rats is a boot to the face before they start chewing on your ankle. 
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Mar 3, 2015 05:39
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I want to adopt a hippopotamus to guard my chickens and pit bulls look sorta like hippos so im guessing they're from the same progenitor dog type. I dont need something as large as a full size hippo but dwarf hippos seem like they're kinda rare, could i breed a smallish pit bull maybe a pibblehuahua to a full size hippo and get a dwarf hippo?
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Mar 3, 2015 15:59
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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ButWhatIf posted:Retrievers are supposed to grab, but with a soft mouth. Livestock guardians are not supposed to show ANY of these behaviors (except to the predators trying to get the livestock). Sometimes, breeds develop extremely exaggerated forms of one of these steps, like EYE --> STALK --> chase in border collies. We call that a hypertrophied behavior. There's a really excellent book by Ray Coppinger that goes into more detail if anyone's interested (you might not be, I am aware that I am a big ol' ethology sperg). One day my sister saw our family golden retriever in the yard with something in his mouth. She found that it was a live baby rabbit. She took it from him and let it go. He had never been used for hunting in his life. To the dog, it must have been: "I got The Thing! ... Now what do I do?  "It's so weird to me how behaviors can be bred into an animal. It makes me wonder if there's any truth to human eugenics, or if we really have any control over who we are.  That's an endless debate of human nature. Yet for dogs, it's a fact. How's that possible?Regardless, I suspect that pit lovers are projecting their own insecurities on pits. That's where this is coming from. It's not about dogs, not about breeds. They want desperately to prove that pits can always be made good through nurture because they feel that believing differently would mean also believing that humans can be irreparably broken at birth. Whether personal or a general worldview, they want to believe that anyone can be redeemed. IIRC, that was the hook for that Pit Boss show-- "I'm a midget ex-con so I'm misunderstood and judged by people even though I have a heart of pure gold, just like these poor innocent pits" But dogs aren't humans and vice versa. This is a more subtle way in which applying human characteristics to animals is detrimental to understanding them.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:29
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Ema Nymton posted:It's so weird to me how behaviors can be bred into an animal. It makes me wonder if there's any truth to human eugenics, or if we really have any control over who we are. It's called epigenetics and scientists are still scratching their head over how exactly it works.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:33
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Whenever I'm forced to interact with rescue pit owners I just so badly want to let my pits off their leashes and watch their world shatter, I don't even care anymore "These are extremely well bred APBTs from working breeders who I have owned since puppyhood" "They were extensively trained and socialized and have lived better, more stable, more abuse-free lives than many human children" "Yes, they are still killing your dog, right now"
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Mar 3, 2015 16:58
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